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euripidies

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"i think you're reading into it a bit too much" which bit are you talking about? Homer or something else?

"can you or can you not in a communist society "earn" more than others? because if you can it would go against the very grain of a classless egalitarian society; but on the other hand if you cannot it removes the personal incentive for advancement"

Marxist defines classes by their economic relationship to the "means of production" seeing no one can own the means of production no one can be exploiting in that sense (an economic one).

Now for work "incentive" you get payed by the amount of units you produce. Each unit is valued by the sociality necessary time to produce it. In a capitalist society workers are not payed the value of their labour the capitalist get what is called surplus value which is the means in which someone economically exploits another
 

Alexander

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Originally posted by Comrade nathan
So your saying that when marx, engels and others started to see that when methods of production had change and this cause expliotation and that history has shwon uprising of explioted people that the only logicaly thing would next be in history would be communism they were just young idealistics.

Then when mature aged workers read marxist works and revolted and made the foundations for worker state's (Cuba, Russia etc) they were just young idealist.

So you can stop trying to act like the older mature "man" figure and think that we are going to take any notice to your words, becuase i doubt that in 5 years if i gave up my communist ideals or just tone them down it would be because i think capitalism is right, that the third world would be better if it just let coporations make factories there and the population wasnt lazy, that wars are for what they say they are for not the essence of capitalism imperilism. It wont be for any of this reason it will be because of lack of heart.
*gets out pipe* Sit down son.
Communism is out of date. If you look at Cuba or China, they're not reflecting popular opinion, it don't work. Now if you look at australia, we don't lock you up, torture your family or crush you with a tank...
There was a time when communism looked like the answer to mass industrialisation in europe and could fix everything thru just... a civil war or two. But for all the people who weren't going thru puberty at the time and wanted to see their children live, more moderate means were the real answer, such as electing socialist governments who favoured the workers, (not employers) and a good democracy that reflects what society.
The shift of manufactoring to other countries like (ironically) China, has now brought that issue to them. African and Asian countries have flirted with communism as a solution, but i fail to see any workers paradise. I wont reiterate past posts that communism cant answer.
Social chaos and enourmous discontentment breed communism, noting else. If history has shown anything, a red revolution has always been a transfer of tyranny, a bid for soviet aid or a sad failure ending in the once god-like leader being discredited.
There are more realistic means for doing your bit to do what you can agaisnt world injustice...not saying that your wish to raise a people's army and storm canberra isn't gonna happen.
Leaving aside previous posts that leave sumo sized holes in your arguments, i think it was best put with "i'm a communist, look at me, im real cool"
*takes off belt, thrashes living daylight out of comrade*
 

um..

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Originally posted by euripidies
"i think you're reading into it a bit too much" which bit are you talking about? Homer or something else?

"can you or can you not in a communist society "earn" more than others? because if you can it would go against the very grain of a classless egalitarian society; but on the other hand if you cannot it removes the personal incentive for advancement"

Marxist defines classes by their economic relationship to the "means of production" seeing no one can own the means of production no one can be exploiting in that sense (an economic one).

Now for work "incentive" you get payed by the amount of units you produce. Each unit is valued by the sociality necessary time to produce it. In a capitalist society workers are not payed the value of their labour the capitalist get what is called surplus value which is the means in which someone economically exploits another
you're still not answering my question. in plain english, without referring to any marx or whatever, tell me if workers in a communist society can or cannot recieve more personal benefit than others for the work they do


oh and i was talking about the simpsons too
 

...

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just out of interest

the current china, since they are't using the pure communism system..what are they using?
 

Alexander

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They hoared themselves to big business didn't they? Candy shop of the west or something or other
 

Snapwizard

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Originally posted by ...
just out of interest

the current china, since they are't using the pure communism system..what are they using?
Running a socialist government much like scandavain countires, guess China saw that these countires are pretty rich and have a good system going, We just call ourselfs communist to stand up to America and divert terrorist attention, Yay for us!! Up with yanks


George W. Bush - if I was American why should I vote for you instead of Kennly (cant remember his name) I really want to see the different policies that the two guys have?
 

Enlightened_One

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Socialism and Communisim, too bad they have one big flaw - human nature.
I believe in Equality, but not Communism. I don't know how Socialism works, and I'd nearly back that idea, except however ends up in power must be someone who has the peoples best interests in mind (not like our government).
Anyway, we might as well stick with the Capitalistic society we have and keep trying to improve it.
 

Comrade nathan

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See that where all off you a wrong on the human nature aspect. Socialism is the transation period to communism this is where harsh dictatorships arise from because of outside pressure mainly usa(mostly directed at alexander) in this period thruogh propaganda, education, censorship etc peoples so called "human nature" changes. But anyway on the greed idea not all humans are greedy i dont see workers much often stealing form there boses i only see boses stealing form the workers.

Alexander go read the communist manifesto.
 

um..

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you're taking an extremely narrow-minded view in championing only communism, just as somebody is being narrow minded championing only free-enterprise capitalism
 

euripidies

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the current china, since they are't using the pure communism system..what are they using?

They never used one, this is a major problem that you guys/girls are attacking something you know nothing about I mean nothing because you talking about TOTALITARIAN STATES as communism. I thought you people would be better then this but now I have tell you what the basic ideas of Marxism is (just so you guys remember there are many different types of communism Marxism incorporates communism into its theory). Orthodox Marxist (because there are also many denominations of Marxism) have at the bed rock of there philosophy the idea of dialectical materialism (also known as historical materialism the terms are interchangeable). The idea is that when you change the marital conditions of a society the people also change, because the marital conditions are the major influence on a persons consciousness and social intercourse (eg alienation or no alienation because of different marital conditions). In this historical materialism there is also a concept of history more over how history has evolved and will continue to evolve, Ive posed links that explain the stages so I dont need to cover that.

Marx said that capitalism was great because for the first time in history we could produce mass amounts of products, BUT the problem with capitalism is that all economic and political power is accumulated into a few hands ( there are also environmental problems with capitalism but you could say Marx was limited by the martial conditions of his time). So this fast accumulation creates monopoly capital so economic power over others and at the same time using this monopoly capital to create oligarchies (listen up Alexander it means the rule of the many by the few). Now Karl Marx said the next evolutionary stage of our society after capitalism was socialism (what not communism?). Now this is where I would like things to go, but theres something Marxs didnt really foresee which is feudal corporatism (like feudalisms serfdom but instead of being tried to the land its replaced by corporations). Now lets say we do move towards socialism, in Marxist theory this is called the dictatorship of the proletariat now I find this term misleading, all it really means is that after the revolution (doesnt have to be armed all revolution means is a great change) the capitalist (the top class in current society which owns the means of production) have the means of production taken from their ownership and placed in the communal owner ship. This is where the labour value theory comes into play we have gone over this a bit so look back and read it (Im saying understand if first before you do anything with it). But this state in a political sense should be democratic in the true sense of the word not capitalist democracy. This is the state that china and the USSR claimed the reach, to call them communism is just stupid (Im saying youve lost the plot if you do). To point out the obvious its the union of soviet SOCIALIST republics not communism republics. But not so obvious all the Bolshevik revolution did was remove one ruling class to replace it with another, it was state run capitalism it didnt use the labour value theory. It was autocratic or totalitarian (take your pick). This stage(socialism not the ussr or china) through the change in marital condition changes the nature of the classes and of the persons consciousness and social intercourse and evolves into communism the last stage of orthodox Marxism.
 
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um..

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thats a much better explination, euripides. USSR and china were (or are) totalitarian first, communist second
 

euripidies

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ok um.. im starting to think theres a problem with you. i thought you said you go to uni. but still you can't seem to work out basic stuff.

Totalitarianism has nothing to do with communism or for that matter socialism.
Ill give you the democratic system of socialism- grass roots level workers or the nucleus, workers have their own committees elect managers. District committees rather look over a suburb- regional looks over a group of district levels- providence(state level) and central committee over the whole nation.

So its like a federal system with a lower span of control ( less people under each level)
 
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Communism is prone to a misallocation of resources and corruption that is not present in the free market system.
 
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in plain english, without referring to any marx or whatever, tell me if workers in a communist society can or cannot recieve more personal benefit than others for the work they do
You still haven't answered this. It's a yes or no question. If you can, then you're compromising the idea of equality, and if you can't, you're taking away the incentive to furthur society.
 

euripidies

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"in plain english, without referring to any marx or whatever, tell me if workers in a communist society can or cannot recieve more personal benefit than others for the work they do"

YES, they can I said this before but they can't use it as a means of exploitation because no one can own the means of production. i anwsered that agers ago just cos your guys no comprehension dont blame me.

"Communism is prone to a misallocation of resources and corruption that is not present in the free market system."

Sweeping statement now back it up, or cant you do that?
 

Comrade nathan

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Originally posted by George W. Bush
Communism is prone to a misallocation of resources and corruption that is not present in the free market system.
what is your theory of how the free market system doesnt cause corruption, all i see is corrupt ceo's and corrupt leaders bowing down to ceo's
 
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Originally posted by euripidies
YES, they can I said this before but they can't use it as a means of exploitation because no one can own the means of production. i anwsered that agers ago just cos your guys no comprehension dont blame me.
So I can have more money than other people, but I can't use it to do anything? That's not an incentive.

Sweeping statement now back it up, or cant you do that?
I think it's time for you to remove your head from the clouds and look at real life communism.

Originally posted by Comrade nathan
what is your theory of how the free market system doesnt cause corruption, all i see is corrupt ceo's and corrupt leaders bowing down to ceo's
Free market has no governmental influence, so the leaders cannot be corrupt. What corrupt CEOs are you referring too? Under the free market system, the markets know best.
 

euripidies

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George W. Bush youre so dense but then that reflects the character youre worshiping. Now George if you go back through my post and look at the links Ive posted they have a lot of information about Marxism and just so you know your not getting left wing bias not all the links are left wing sources. Go look through them you need it.

I think it's time for you to remove your head from the clouds and look at real life communism.

Now your making sweeping statements with no backing, lets take a look at collectives that have worked in the past, ill just give you a link to an essay on the Spanish civil war -

http://www.che-lives.com/home/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15

Read that maybe even look up some other sources if you want and we can talk about it.

Free market has no governmental influence, so the leaders cannot be corrupt. What corrupt CEOs are you referring too? Under the free market system, the markets know best


You fool, go read John Ralston Sauls The Unconscious Civilization- http://www.geocities.com/radiochomsky/unconscious-civilization.html#acknowledgements

Do you know what feudal corporatism is ? Free trade works towards it look it up.
 
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If you don't mind, I don't care enough to read some literary dreadnaughts from communist sites who, obviously, are pro-communism and blind to any criticism or flaws in their system, so I'll explain the basic theory.

Under communism, the State controls what is produced, in what quantites and how it is produced etc. Now, as we all know, large governments are very inefficent, and there is no way that one government can adapt to changed economic environments as quickly as a free market economy. For example, as Australia has become more free-market with micro-economic reform, the AFC didn't cause the recession many economists were expecting. Also, when so much power is placed in the hands of few individuals, corruption is bound to ensure. Communism is blind to the fact that a) not all humans are created equal and b) humans are motivated by self-interest, and not the interest of the community.

You also have extremely selective reading. Go read the first sentance of my above post. Also, please explain how feudal corporatism is equivelent to the corruption seen in basically every communist government.

Now, I understand, as a young person growing up in the world, discovering their first pubic hairs and the function of various body parts, you are extremely curious as to the workings of larger society. Coming with this curiousity is a strong streak of rebellion against the ways of life of the previous generation, which Freud put down to an intense desire to have sex with your mother. Possible paternal sex motivation aside, I'd like to point out that it is not necessary for you to reject every value and tradition of the previous generation. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, those with EXPERT TRAINING (read: university degrees, years of experience) would know better than you (or some Che Lives emagazine) the optimal economic system for the world. I mean, I admit that the Internet is an exceptional source of truthful information from well educated academics from around the world, and many of these academics devote themselves to writing well respected electronic magazines, but surely we don't have to embrace everything these experts say.
 

euripidies

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"If you don't mind, I don't care enough to read some literary dreadnaughts from communist sites who, obviously, are pro-communism and blind to any criticism or flaws in their system, so I'll explain the basic theory."

If you havent read any Marxist writers how are you going to attack it seeing as you dont understand it which is quite obvious. Youre not going to read someone whose pro communist why because you might find out what it really means and have to debate it instead of making empty statements. i just thought Id point out that John Ralston Saul is not a communist his a capitalist just not far right wing ( center ). But seeing your ignorance you didnt know that, you just jump to the oh its must be left wing bias, Im not going to read that I might learn something

I can have more money than other people, but I can't use it to do anything? That's not an incentive

I dont know how many times Ive said this but yes there is incentive to work under communism, but no you cant turn around and exploit someone because you cant change your relationship to the means of production so that extra credit you earn could be spent on consumer goods or service.

under communism, the State controls what is produced, in what quantites and how it is produced etc. Now, as we all know, large governments are very inefficent, and there is no way that one government can adapt to changed economic environments as quickly as a free market economy.

First of all what I have stated now a few times there are stages in Marxist theory as to the development to communism (to communism because it is the last foreseeable stage). So make it clear what stage youre talking about. Because In communism the nation is organized into collectives areas which have a level of autonomy (self determination, you know what the USA takes away from most countries) so this talk about huge governments is not really true seeing there broken up into small governments.

And oh yes the free market system does great work in the allocation of recourses just look what happen in Ireland the great famine was man made because the government wouldnt intervene in the market place.


Now, I understand, as a young person growing up in the world, discovering their first pubic hairs and the function of various body parts, you are extremely curious as to the workings of larger society. Coming with this curiousity is a strong streak of rebellion against the ways of life of the previous generation, which Freud put down to an intense desire to have sex with your mother. Possible paternal sex motivation aside, I'd like to point out that it is not necessary for you to reject every value and tradition of the previous generation. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, those with EXPERT TRAINING (read: university degrees, years of experience) would know better than you (or some Che Lives emagazine) the optimal economic system for the world. I mean, I admit that the Internet is an exceptional source of truthful information from well educated academics from around the world, and many of these academics devote themselves to writing well respected electronic magazines, but surely we don't have to embrace everything these experts say.

Nice rant, said pretty much nothing you can attack what Im saying so you attack me, you know if youd listened to me and at least tried to understood what we are talking about then maybe you wouldnt have to revert to attacking the person not the facts and making sweeping statements and not backing them up. Now this idea that am Im rebelling from my mother and father? Both are socialist and I dont know about you or Freud but I dont have an Oedipus complex. But anyways to sum up that whole passage your basically youre saying Im odder then you Im right even without giving any facts
 
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