Criminal Krudd to hand over our wealth (2 Viewers)

[jennyfromdabloc]

Or because they're all part of the 1% of the Western World who can actually afford surgery in the US.

Most Americans have health insurance and do get better and faster treatment than people in countries with socialized medicine. The 1% figure is a complete joke.

Of course, the US system is far from a free market anyway. Arguably even more so than in Australia which has one of the less socialized systems. In the US regulations force insurers to insure pretty much everyone at the same rate. Its hugely unfair, and as a result many young people or healthy people opt to risk not buying insurance. At least in Australia insurance companies can operate much more freely and we provide tax credits for buying it.

I'm hardly defending the US system because it is nothing remotely close to a free market. But it is better than some of the more full on socialized systems like the NHS in Britain where it is common for people to die on waiting lists for treatment that could easily save them.

 

[M3riJaan]

I take offence at that. When I filled in my tax return I felt a little patriotic swell of pride in that i was doing my bit to help the less fortunate or to build roads or to help a nice kid go to school. I guess some people however don't think the unemployed deserve food, nor do people need roads or does little Jimmy deserve an education.

If the gov't sent out a receipt to australian citizens actually showing them how much they have contributed to the soil their sorry asses sit on, i bet this anti-govt bitching would quieten a bit.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

If the gov't sent out a receipt to australian citizens actually showing them how much they have contributed to the soil their sorry asses sit on, i bet this anti-govt bitching would quieten a bit.

About 40% of government spending is transfer payments, then there's all the money wasted on "defense" fighting foreign wars, the money paid to useless politicians and bureaucrats, and the money spent policing victimless crimes and locking people up for them.

Subtract all that and the money left for building stuff Australians actually use is comparatively meager, and that's without even looking at all the wastage due to inefficiency compared to if these things were built and run by the private sector.

 

[SylviaB]

part of the reason healthcare costs are so high in America is because of stupid regulations introduced by even stupider statists

Key example: You can't buy healthcare across state lines.

This massively reduces competition, and hence massively increases costs.

In some states, a singe insurance company can have as much as an 80% share of the market, meaning they can pretty much charge what they like


The statist solution to the problem, obviously: If regulation doesn't work you're not using enough of it!

 

[loquasagacious]

If the gov't sent out a receipt to australian citizens actually showing them how much they have contributed to the soil their sorry asses sit on, i bet this anti-govt bitching would quieten a bit.

Tip: they do once a year. It's called the budget. I'm fully aware of what the Government pays for and how much/who it taxes to do it. If anything the knowledge makes me more anti-government not less.

 

[M3riJaan]

About 40% of government spending is transfer payments, then there's all the money wasted on "defense" fighting foreign wars, the money paid to useless politicians and bureaucrats, and the money spent policing victimless crimes and locking people up for them.

Subtract all that and the money left for building stuff Australians actually use is comparatively meager, and that's without even looking at all the wastage due to inefficiency compared to if these things were built and run by the private sector.

if we let the private sector run the economy, we'd get a series of monopolies running the major industries, making our spending lives a living hell. there needs to be a government to instigate these regulatory authorities for a reason (ACCC etc).

There wouldn't be a government if it was ALL bad.

oh but thx for not losing it =)

 

[SylviaB]

if we let the private sector run the economy, we'd get a series of monopolies running the major industries

Um no, that's the point of private sector: competition.

Government is the very epitome of a monopoly, because they have little obligation to get things done efficiently.

 

[Lentern]

Tip: they do once a year. It's called the budget. I'm fully aware of what the Government pays for and how much/who it taxes to do it. If anything the knowledge makes me more anti-government not less.

Yes thats why I'm always careful to conjure up emotionally loaded examples rather than go for the broader view angle. Still why don't you refuse to vote in these so called compulsory elections, refuse to lodge a mandatory tax return, drive at a speed you see fit...Or is this miraculous freedom you speak of not really worth fighting for after all?

 

[SylviaB]

Yes thats why I'm always careful to conjure up emotionally loaded examples rather than go for the broader view angle. Still why don't you refuse to vote in these so called compulsory elections, refuse to lodge a mandatory tax return, drive at a speed you see fit...Or is this miraculous freedom you speak of not really worth fighting for after all?

because doing these things could result in an even greater violation of our freedom ie. getting kidnapped and locked away

 

[Lentern]

because doing these things could result in an even greater violation of our freedom ie. getting kidnapped and locked away

Ahh, so not worth fighting for.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Ahh, so not worth fighting for.

Not in that sense.

It would be stupid to spend a good portion your life rotting in prison (probably suffering permanent physical and psychological harm as a result), only to be ridiculed by the majority of people who would think you deserve it anyway.

Just like it would be stupid to refuse to give and armed mugger your possessions.

It's not that we lack conviction, its that the enemy is so powerful and ruthless.

 

[SylviaB]

Ahh, so not worth fighting for.

I can fight for freedom far more if I'm not locked away in prison

 

[slively03]

So because team freedom said you were an aspie you are going to try out for team statism?

No Kieran. I've been a member of team freedom since year 11 when i started reading the Rand books (among other things). I believe the state's legitimacy comes from the social contract, and the idea of a government emerges from an anthropological view of human society and from a philosophical statement of individual rights. I believe ethically the social contract can only be truly fair when it only defends the very basics of individual liberty, and doesn't become moralistic or arbitrary or politicised or granting some rights at the expense of others.

Of course libertarians differ from other groups over what they think constitutes 'harm' of the individual and where the government should intervene. But I do believe the state should still have a coercive apparatus, i'm a minarchist not an anarcho-capitalist.

The point i was trying to make is that Australia is not the US and doesn't have any explicit mandate of the protection of individual rights. If you consider Australians have a cultural bias towards government intervention and the welfare state, it might be part of the social contract in our country and for our government to do the greatest good for the greatest number. If a majority of australians hold this view in a democratic society, a paternalistic government giving the people a welfare state is what is wanted, we cannot say we are being coercive in doing so.

But then again that's a very socialist way of defining the mandate of government. The liberal interpretation is the that social contract is to preserve the inalienable rights of the individual. The socialistic one defines the freedoms of the citizenry as the 'general will' or the national interest. Both are equally valid definitions to justify coercion. However, I have my own personal reasons as to why individual reasons trump the conscience collective, (to paraphrase Rousseau) if such a thing can be adequately enunciated.

 

[loquasagacious]

Ahh, so not worth fighting for.

I regularly have this argument with one of my statist friends. My response is that as the others have said there is not a realistic way for me to resist without being thrown in jail, shot or otherwise severely punished by the state.

Also I reject the idea of imposing my views through force so the most effective way of achieving change is to work within the existing system. Sure it might be gradual change but that beats no change at all and being imprisoned or executed. In this way libertarians can demonstrate both a defined vision of a better future and practical steps to get there. And in Australia we are almost unique in doing both.

So as a libertarian I will/do support policies which wind back Government influence. Typically this means I vote for economic liberals and agitate for free markets and a free society.

 

[redmayne]

Fuck the politicians.

They're a bunch of squabbling children.

Um...?

Have you looked at the thread you're contributing to here?

 

[loquasagacious]

Um...?

Have you looked at the thread you're contributing to here?

We aren't paid by the taxpayer or elected by citizens to make decisions. Your comment is about as relevant as saying that there is lots of squabbling in childcare centres (tbh though probably less there than in politics).

 

[redmayne]

We aren't paid by the taxpayer or elected by citizens to make decisions. Your comment is about as relevant as saying that there is lots of squabbling in childcare centres (tbh though probably less there than in politics).

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

The "squabbling" is in order to achieve something, don't you get that? You have to play the political game to get things done, to do some good. That's democracy for you, the best there is. Would you rather a dictator who didn't muck around with people's rights or opinions, just got things done? They might not be good things but man they're efficient. Or would you put your entire existence at the mercy of "market forces" and the world of capitalism, without any regulation? With unpredictable results, subject to the desires of the business world, whose main motivation is to make money. It's not to help anyone, it's not to do what's right for a country, it's to make money.

Just because your perception of "good" differs from those of today's elected representatives, doesn't mean it's evil.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

I doubt he cares what you think.

That's democracy for you, the best there is.

FFS. We've all had that shit drilled into our head so many times. You sound like a mindless robot repeating it.

Have you looked at every possible alternative in detail before reaching this sweeping conclusion that its THE BEST?

Or would you put your entire existence at the mercy of "market forces" and the world of capitalism, without any regulation? With unpredictable results, subject to the desires of the business world, whose main motivation is to make money. It's not to help anyone, it's not to do what's right for a country, it's to make money.

Democracy has unpredictable results. Look at all the crazy shit democracies have done; nuclear bombs, internment camps, research into torture and deadly weapons, the war on drugs. Who knows what crazy shit they'll come up with next.

What are you basing the whole greed thing on? What evidence to you have that politicians are less selfish and more interested in helping others than entrepreneurs?

 

[redmayne]

What are you basing the whole greed thing on? What evidence to you have that politicians are less selfish and more interested in helping others than entrepreneurs?

PM's pay: $330,000 pa

Sol Trujillo's pay: $11,000,000 pa (before $20,000,000 payout)

John Thain (Merrill Lynch CEO) pay: US$83,100,000

 

[Mormador]

i'm sorry if i hurt your feelings.

The "squabbling" is in order to achieve something, don't you get that? You have to play the political game to get things done, to do some good. That's democracy for you, the best there is. Would you rather a dictator who didn't muck around with people's rights or opinions, just got things done? They might not be good things but man they're efficient. Or would you put your entire existence at the mercy of "market forces" and the world of capitalism, without any regulation? With unpredictable results, subject to the desires of the business world, whose main motivation is to make money. It's not to help anyone, it's not to do what's right for a country, it's to make money.

just because your perception of "good" differs from those of today's elected representatives, doesn't mean it's evil.

+1