Deloitte to merge with Horwath Sydney (2 Viewers)

[turtleface]

I think you raise some interesting points Pmtroung

Firstly I think its common practice nowadays for accountings students to defend their profession by associating all the menial, transactional level, bean counting aspects of the accounting process to book-keeping.

I feel sorry for bookkeepers who get maligned solely for being para-professionals. I think it needs to be said that bookkeepers do an important job just like Nurses and Paralegals and IT technicians do for Doctors, Lawyers and IT professionals.

As a cadet, you won't do bookkeeping (because its a totally different job) but I don't think they should expect any high level work requiring professional judgement either, because you are just a grunt/assistant to help out the accountants there.

I don't think you do any "real" accounting until at least the senior/supervisor level.

Is it glossy propaganda that they are tellin us naive cadets to make accounting seem more desirable or is it really not that boring?...

Definately propaganda. Accounting is boring, at least at the low levels like for cadets and junior accountants. However, its "boringness" is greatly overstated, particularly by people who don't know what accounting is about. Accounting is boring, but no more so than any other profession like Engineering, Law, Medicine etc.

And is there really a "new breed" of accountants which have book smarts and also interpersonal skills or do they continue to hire steriotyped accounting ppl with insane marks and no personal skills?

Current recruitment trends at the student level suggests that more outgoing, assertive, bubbly, attractive/conventional looking people get favoured over academic high achievers.

I think however that there are two issues. One is that book smarts and street smarts are not necessarily mutually exclusive. You could very well have people who are both academically successful, and very good communicators. Two, the academic criteria aspect is more used as a hurdle rather than a selection metric (i.e. you have to get beyond xxxx level to be considered)

"And is there really a "new breed" of accountants which have book smarts and also interpersonal skills or do they continue to hire steriotyped accounting ppl with insane marks and no personal skills?"...

and

..."Their view of accounting was that of someone stuk in a dimly lit room behind an ever growing stack of papers with no life. "

I think that it is also dangerous to malign the stereotypical bean counter too much. The older generation of back office nerds with their calculators and eye shades may not have the respect of the current generation of outgoing, "communicative", interpersonal skilled people, however it has to be remembered that those same beancounters who have no communication, personal skills or any respect from people like you and me are now the leaders of major corporations and organisations (Coles Myer, BHP, Fosters, Qantas, Virgin Blue, Babcock Brown, QBE, Promina etc), government agencies (ASIC etc.) , leaders in politics (Barnaby Joyce) etc.

It remains to be seen whether your generation of "interpersonal" skilled students now flooding the accounting firms, can achieve what they have.

 

[seremify007]

I also feel compelled to drop my 2c into this discussion.

Before I begin though, accounting at uni is damn boring for me. I personally find the actual work quite interesting most of the time (there are some bits which are painstakingly annoying) but it really depends on what you're interested in... but then hey, they wouldn't have offered you a cadetship if you didn't have an interest in accounting right?

As a cadet, you won't do bookkeeping (because its a totally different job) but I don't think they should expect any high level work requiring professional judgement either, because you are just a grunt/assistant to help out the accountants there.

I don't think you do any "real" accounting until at least the senior/supervisor level.

Alot of the work which cadets do is important when it comes to developing expectations, investigating variances, dealing with clients, understanding controls, etc... but as turtleface mentioned, alot of the "big" calls won't be made by you but rather, your seniors. This doesn't really detract from the experience because whilst you will get jobs which seem meaningless such as invoice checking and reconciliations, there's always going to be one or two which leave you frozen whilst you try to figure out how to do something even if you've done it a million times before. As you start doing it more and more, you'll pick up on things like give-aways for things which have been recorded incorrectly or have issues- but at the lower levels, you'll obviously let your seniors make the call on how to proceed. Nonetheless though, the way your seniors respond and reason with you about how to proceed, will become a part of you and in the future, you'll be the one making that same call.

I think that it is also dangerous to malign the stereotypical bean counter too much. The older generation of back office nerds with their calculators and eye shades may not have the respect of the current generation of outgoing, "communicative", interpersonal skilled people, however it has to be remembered that those same beancounters who have no communication, personal skills or any respect from people like you and me are now the leaders of major corporations and organisations (Coles Myer, BHP, Fosters, Qantas, Virgin Blue, Babcock Brown, QBE, Promina etc), government agencies (ASIC etc.) , leaders in politics (Barnaby Joyce) etc.

True, but I think you'll find that alot of the people who you'll be dealing with as a cadet in terms of client communications tend to be people who are quite easy to talk to. I'm pretty sure from their perspective, they'd prefer to have someone who's equally easy to talk to than someone who's too shy to ask a question. Besides, what good is an auditor who is too afraid to ask?

EDIT: Also wanted to mention that if you happen to be working on a large client, chances are that you'll be dealing with the corporate accountants alot more than say the CFO (beyond formal introductions and those really nitpicky questions). Alot of the time, corporate accountants are not much older than we are

... on a sidenote, I keep making mention to audit because;
a) I'm in audit
b) Alot of the cadets will be doing audit work

I'm aware that not every accountant or accountant-aspirant out there is in audit, but there's quite a lot of 'em!

It remains to be seen whether your generation of "interpersonal" skilled students now flooding the accounting firms, can achieve what they have.

It is my opinion that the people who get jobs nowadays are those with a willingness to learn rather than those who have just demonstrated the ability to learn. *shrugs*

thanks dils. so happy that i never have to look at this pointless maths again. my best subject eco is nex so that will make up for it. Can u guys tell me how much and wat style of maths is involved in uni?

Not sure about other unis but in UNSW, we have "ECON1202" and "ECON1203". This is basically year12 2u maths all over again with interest rate calculations (they can get quite tricky and the test is your ability to understand rather than the actual maths component), some matrices, probability and problem solving using equations (linear programming). There is also a bit of calculus required, but it's alot easier than year12 3u maths! None of that fancy stuff- just the basic differentation/integration!

Their view of accounting was that of someone stuk in a dimly lit room behind an ever growing stack of papers with no life.

Hmm.. as others have mentioned, there's a great difference between book keeping and professional services. I liken the difference between the general umbrella term of "doctor" and a specialist in the medical field such as a dermatologist. That's like the difference between an accountant and an auditor; an arts student and a designer, etc...

EDIT: Above has been edited a bit to make it slightly more accurate and understandable. No liability accepted if it's still incorrect!

Is it glossy propaganda that they are tellin us naive cadets to make accounting seem more desirable or is it really not that boring?...I've done Tafe accounting and that was pretty easy but i woodn wanna be doin that for the rest of my life...it progresses to way more than jus book keepin rite?

Even when you reach much higher positions, you'll still need to know your debits and credits. Whilst not necessarily for you, but sometimes it'll help you A LOT when you have to think about another business such as the way they recognise revenue or the processes involved when doing controls testing. And yes this relates to audit where you have to understand the client's business. Sure you don't have to do the actual Dr/Cr book keeping, but you still need to know what they're doing. However, in this modern time, everyone uses some form of accounting software whether it be say Oracle.. or MYOB.

Also conspiracy looking forward to meetin u as well...funny how ur mid tier employer of choice has become ur big4 employer through aquisition but yeh its good i herd deloite are the highest payin big4? mor caching! hopefully my salary will also rise from 28k as well!

It'll be interesting to see how things play out with Deloitte back in the cadetship game after leaving a few years back.

 

[velox]

Hmm.. as others have mentioned, there's a great difference between book keeping and professional services. I liken the difference between the general umbrella term of "doctor" which includes people like your local GP, or even people who have studied to a certain level in university... and make it a comparison with a specialist such as a dermatologist. That's like the difference between an accountant an auditor, an arts student and a designer, etc...



Errm I dont think so. Firstly all specialists have completed a medical degree like GPs. GPs have about 2-4 yrs less training in their college. I dont see how the relationship between a dermatologist (~5yrs training) and a GP (~3 yrs training) is equivalent to the difference between an accountant and an arts student? That comment is nearly as ignorant as the one about accountants sitting in dark rooms bean counting.

 

[turtleface]

wait General Practice is a type of specialisation

So that makes a GP a Specialist too.

I also learnt recently that if doctors become surgeons, they lose the doctor title and become "Mr." or "Miss", "Mrs." or "Ms."

So calling a surgeon "doctor" is incorrect (well, technically)

lol, so complicated

 

[Conspirocy]

Okay first, quickly. I only have vac work these holidays. so where i actually end up working is in the hands of the gods. but unless im a complete idiot and do something silly, then i should get an offer at the end of it.

As for this new breed of accountant...and comparing with the old ones. I think you guys are missing a crucial part of the puzzle. Old people have experiance, they are sneaky bastards (for lack of a better expression) who have seen probably 9/10ths of what we will have to deal with already, and obviously have a couple of tricks up there sleve.

As for the claims that they are back office, I disagree. Most of the time accountants area dealing with other accountants, so in terms of communication I think they all speak the same language hahahaha. When they deal with other people, I am sure they can put sentences together. Wouldn't you be confident speaking to someone when you are the expert they are paying for advice?

If they were that terrible, they would not be where they are today. As for this interpersonal stuff, its a skill like everything else, my view is that it can be taught and picked up easily.

 

[seremify007]

Hmm.. as others have mentioned, there's a great difference between book keeping and professional services. I liken the difference between the general umbrella term of "doctor" which includes people like your local GP, or even people who have studied to a certain level in university... and make it a comparison with a specialist such as a dermatologist. That's like the difference between an accountant an auditor, an arts student and a designer, etc...



Errm I dont think so. Firstly all specialists have completed a medical degree like GPs. GPs have about 2-4 yrs less training in their college. I dont see how the relationship between a dermatologist (~5yrs training) and a GP (~3 yrs training) is equivalent to the difference between an accountant and an arts student? That comment is nearly as ignorant as the one about accountants sitting in dark rooms bean counting.

My mistake- I thought GP came before dermatologist in terms of... progression. But anyhow, if you read my post carefully (and ignored my missing "and" between "accountant" and "an auditor" you'd see that I was comparing an umbrella/general term with a specific occupation. Nonetheless I take responsibility for the misunderstanding there- considering this is a Commerce forum and that comparison was made as a general remark, don't take things too seriously.

Okay first, quickly. I only have vac work these holidays. so where i actually end up working is in the hands of the gods. but unless im a complete idiot and do something silly, then i should get an offer at the end of it.

Wouldn't guarantee it.

As for the claims that they are back office, I disagree. Most of the time accountants area dealing with other accountants, so in terms of communication I think they all speak the same language hahahaha. When they deal with other people, I am sure they can put sentences together. Wouldn't you be confident speaking to someone when you are the expert they are paying for advice?

Depends what your job is really. As an auditor, you are essentially questioning the way they do things and some people will take offence to that.

If they were that terrible, they would not be where they are today. As for this interpersonal stuff, its a skill like everything else, my view is that it can be taught and picked up easily.

I see it more as a personality trait which develops into a skill. Sure it can be picked up, but if it's in your general nature, it'll come alot easier. But then I guess it's like that with all skills now isn't it?

 

[pmtruong]

In regardst to that dimly lit backroom nerd stereotype i was merely expressing the general views on accounting that many uninformed ppl hold of accounting. i have to admit that at one stage i held this view to some extent until i became more informed. I am also not criticizing the back room bean counters either....i agree they that they are important but im jus sayin that our generation dusn want a job like that. This is probably why they are tryna create a new image for accountants and why the whole work/life balance is being pushed by almost every firm. It cood also be the reason y there is such a skills shortage for accountants due to its old image. and the majority of accountants probly dont need that gooda interpersonal skills unless they are using accounting..like i am to help me get into a management position. But overall the "new breed" of accountnant is just a way to adress accountings image problem and make it seem like it has social aspect to it which our current generation demands.

 

[Conspirocy]

Wouldn't guarantee it.

Well I actually didn't guarantee it. I said It was contingent, and also indicated that even if I met the criteria it wasn't 100%. That just wasn't a nice thing at all to say.

Like the arrogant side of me would give you a personal guarantee from now, because I just didn't like your tone. The other side of me would shrug it off and say, who are you? I might regret this. Who am I kidding. I give you a personal guarantee I will have a job offer at the end of February (it could be the local bottle shop - fingers crossed people hahahaha). There I said it. I really didn't like your tone man. How condescending.

 

[Conspirocy]

Depends what your job is really. As an auditor, you are essentially questioning the way they do things and some people will take offence to that.



I see it more as a personality trait which develops into a skill. Sure it can be picked up, but if it's in your general nature, it'll come alot easier. But then I guess it's like that with all skills now isn't it?

As an auditor if you continually offend people I guarantee you will be taken off that client. My understanding is that if an auditor continually puts noses of people out of place then they must not have very good interpersonal skills. Of course there will be some tension, but within reason. I doubt you have a conflict with someone you audit every day on every issue. If you do then it is definitely you.

A personality trait that develops into a skill. Yes, I agree it is like that with a lot of skills. Being naturally smart is also a personality trait. Picking up concepts quickly yet another personality trait. I'm sorry people can have the ability to talk all they want, but if there is no substance behind what they say they are useless. So yes, people who have interpersonal skill are sure to have an 'advantage'. A person who knows what they are actually doing also has an advantage too. Which one would you want to work on? I'd rather want personality traits that made me smarter, and work on interpersonal skills.

 

[jase_]

I wish you guys would stay on topic

 

[Meads]

I wish you guys would stay on topic

It always becomes an argument as to whether accounting and auditing is for poofs or not...thank god im in tax

 

[seremify007]

Well I actually didn't guarantee it. I said It was contingent, and also indicated that even if I met the criteria it wasn't 100%. That just wasn't a nice thing at all to say.

Like the arrogant side of me would give you a personal guarantee from now, because I just didn't like your tone. The other side of me would shrug it off and say, who are you? I might regret this. Who am I kidding. I give you a personal guarantee I will have a job offer at the end of February (it could be the local bottle shop - fingers crossed people hahahaha). There I said it. I really didn't like your tone man. How condescending.

I'm sorry that you may have interpretted my post as being offensive or questioning your words- but my comment was a general and straight to the point remark- vacation work does not guarantee anybody a graduate position. If I said anything otherwise, it might give you (or anybody else reading this) a false sense of confidence. Even though I was quoting you, it doesn't necessarily mean that my post is targeted only at you. Cheer up, congratulations on getting a vacation spot and try to make the most of the experience. I'm sure you'll learn a lot about whichever division it is you'll be in. If you don't mind me asking, which firm will you be at?

As an auditor if you continually offend people I guarantee you will be taken off that client. My understanding is that if an auditor continually puts noses of people out of place then they must not have very good interpersonal skills. Of course there will be some tension, but within reason. I doubt you have a conflict with someone you audit every day on every issue. If you do then it is definitely you.

Interpersonal skills is how well you can communicate, as well as how organised you are to hold a discussion, your ability to present yourself, as well as other things like being considerate/understanding.

But regardless of all this, it's our job to ask questions and to "probe" into the business. There are always going to be clients who are helpful and will answer your questions asap (because they know the sooner they do, the sooner we leave), but there are also going to be those who will create tension for various reasons whether it be they just don't want to help, they aren't able to help and are stalling you, etc... so really, just because tension exists, doesn't necessarily mean you're the one at fault However, if everyone else seems to get along fine with the client....

 

[pmtruong]

turns out deloitte will start to offer cadetships nex year. Suposedly they hav bin interested in doin this the last year or two and with the horwath merge it makes it all the more easier as they have to set up the program for us anyways. Also it will be a sandwhich program.

 

[dils1989]

hey pmtruong wat u mean it will be sandwich program?? as in 2 yrs working 2 yr uni?? coz thats not was originally suppsoed to happen was it? i juss got otld the starting date n that new contracts were comin:S but i was kinda busy wen they rang so i didnt talk long

 

[pmtruong]

Ey. Yeh it has stayed as original. Orginally it was sandwhich. This is when u work full time in first yr whilst studyin part time. Then, for each of the following three years, you would combine full-time study during the first semester with full-time work and part-time study in the second semester. But yeh Katherine sed its pretty flexible. For eg u can work in first semester a bit if u really want to and if ur doin good in uni. Or u cood do more subjects per semester if u cood handle it. The other structure is 2 +2 which is working full time and studtin part time in first 2 years then swap over. but yeh its good that it stayed the same coz i hear u can get very burnt out on 2+2. i jus thought it cooda possibly chnaged coz all the other big 4 cadets are on 2+2, but it hasnt ...the horwath structure is carryin through. anways bak to eco

 

[jared_88]

Hey I just saw this then lol!
I got offered a cadetship with Horwath but turned it down (I took Grant Thornton instead)... Lucky I did becos I've heard Delloite is really cut-throat in terms of work-load and hierachy.

 

[seremify007]

Nah deloitte ain't bad. It's quite good IMO.

As for 2+2 vs Sandwich... lol.. we have to decide by the 24th!

 

[turtleface]

Deloitte? lol

I heard from one person it had the longest hours, but from what I've seen its all like 1 big party there. Working there seems like a big bludge lol

 

[redruM]

Deloitte? lol

I heard from one person it had the longest hours, but from what I've seen its all like 1 big party there. Working there seems like a big bludge lol

Orsum!