Do We Even Need Vista? (2 Viewers)

[sladehk]

i just love all the cool gadgets!

 

[Winston]

We need Vista to keep up with today's demands of more processing power and better visual capabilties. But the problem is, no one buys Vista because it's like Grand Theft Auto. If you buy a new computer, you are going to get it. Even if you buy Vista alone, you still need a good spec pc to run that memory eating 50million line software jimminy poo. MS is probably playing catch up to what Apple has had for a long time now with their OSX.

I'm glad you do see the reason why Windows demands a bit more, apart from legacy reasons, and lots more useful services running in every release, MS is aligned well with hardware vendors, if you imagine, MS just releases new versions without leveraging the potential capabilities of hardware, hardware vendors will forever be stuck on profits, with no demand in RAM, Graphic cards, etc, yes there lots of gamers, but i'm sure the gamer ratio to PC users is a lot different, and if every PC user has a demand or need to get more RAM or Graphics card, to run their new Windows, then Hardware vendors can mass produce, and sell them for peanuts, furthermore, the role of the developer becomes a lot more flexible, they can create things which they envisaged many years ago but couldn't because of hardware limitations, furthermore, developers won't need to be extremely memory conscious as they use to be, i mean they still need to, but not as crazy where they need to milk and optimise every area of their app. The moral is, that it's like a total food-chain effect, MS works with hardware vendors to drive the industry forward.


In terms of playing catch up, i wouldn't exactly say every aspect of them is playing catch up, sure icons, aesthetics etc they're probably trying to bring a better experience, and many of the security aspects, but the thing people don't understand at an unbiased perspective is, MS didn't actually steal that much from Apple, it's the other way around, lets give some of the simple aspects of Vista which were stolen:

Dashboard vs Sidebar:

Firstly, sidebar was in microsoft research labs in the Win9x days so we are speaking of the 90's, i have a working version of it, and if people are in tune with it all they would of seen it too, and then they brought it up a bit more in 2001 releasing more prototypes, it initially appeared in Longhorn alpha builds.

So the notion of mini-applications on your desktop was first thought up by MS, now i wouldn't go giving Apple the most credit for widgets, since the original creator was Konfabulator, why doesn't anyone every scream that Apple stole from them? So in conclusion sidebar was not a rip off of dashboard, the only thing they probably ripped was the ability to tear the gadgets off the sidebar.


Spotlight vs Windows search:

Like i've mentioned if people have followed the early days and recent article of Bill gates getting very angry about Apple etc, and saying they shouldn't of showcased it so early, it was true, in 2001, MS already had the search in works, but because the longhorn project stretched so long, and the fact that Apple releases OS releases on an annual to two year basis, they got it into tiger in time.


FrontRow vs MCE:

I don't think i need to put much evidence that Apple stole the entire idea off MS, since MCE was years ahead of them.

iCal vs Windows Calendar:

I don't need to argue, and say Apple has the winner hear. I don't even need to defend MS, since i do think they sort of directly copied it.

DVD Maker vsWindows DVD:

Like iCal, but i don't know what's different with Windows DVD to Apple's one, so i don't want to comment on it:


Version History vs Time Machine:

Lets put it straight off, Version History, now in Vista, but was in Windows Server as well, was first created by MS themselves, the concept being it only saves the differences of a file, like Time Machine does, now the entire concept was ripped from Version History, the only kudos i give to Apple is for the innovative user experience put to it.

Spaces vs Microsoft Virtual Desktop Spaces:

The idea was also stolen from microsoft's powertoy, but i wouldn't say MS invented it, as i recall the *nix platform having it earlier as well, but credits for Apple in improving the user experience.



Like i mentioned in my previous posts, Vista won't be worth it until half a year down the track where you use it in your own time and play with it and realise there are so many foundational changes which you eventually can't live without.

Many of the foundational aspects of the OS was re-written, like network stacks, as a result it also improved download speeds as well, some who use Vista would notice this too.

The end of white windows, you won't have freezing windows that don't respond as the desktop is now managed by a compositing engine which revolutionises the way the desktop is drawn, now it has double buffering with more enhancements in place.

Vista also incorporates a quite safety technique known as ASLR - Address Space Layout Randomization (Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address_space_layout_randomization), as a result, the chances of a worm infecting one computer and infecting another computer is less, as this technology allows executable address spaces to be randomly located, thus any generic worms which target specific exploits will not ALWAYS guarantee to be able to infect a users PC.

For developers, the 3 pillars, now not directly part of the entire OS is extremely valuable as well. WPF is powerful on it's own and i can't wait to see what WPF/E would show us. WCF and WCS and WF is also powerful sets of technologies for developers.

There is so much more i can go on about, but i'm just here to say, i love Vista, and i love Apple, and i think this "they stole this, they stole that", is all kids talk, because all software vendors do it eventually. I believe Opera was the first to have tabs, now everyone thinks firefox was the first, then safari has it, now IE has it, so they call copied opera?! It's just conforming to trends.

 

[ObjectsInSpace]

 

[mr_brightside]

I've never seen that before. Never.

You'd better email the people at visualjokes.com and tell them that.

 

[Collin]

I'm going to let a million early-adopters bug test it for me. Then it'll come standard on my next computer. I win.

QFT.

I'm sure I've made it clear that my sole interest in Vista at the moment is for gaming. Much dollardollar pumped into expensive photographic equipment = less money on my PC stuff = leaving the gaming scene for a year or so. Worst comes to worst, I'll probably return from my exodus in 08/09'. Vista more secure + Intel's Nahalem + G90/R700 + cheaper 30" LCDs = teh_win.

As for do we need Vista.. no. Why would we need it?

 

[Preditor.89.N7G]

I read in the paper on the train that vista users who have optus or telestra broadband wont be able to connect to the internet because they cant recongnise the drivers, (this may apply for others as well, but i dont know) and it maybe be a couple of months before they update them...So i hope you like dial-up for the next few months.

 

[withoutaface]

I read in the paper on the train that vista users who have optus or telestra broadband wont be able to connect to the internet because they cant recongnise the drivers, (this may apply for others as well, but i dont know) and it maybe be a couple of months before they update them...So i hope you like dial-up for the next few months.

Um except most, if not all, modems used by Optus and Telstra are brand name modems and it'd simply be a matter of going to the manufacturer's website to get them.

 

[STx]

I read in the paper on the train that vista users who have optus or telestra broadband wont be able to connect to the internet because they cant recongnise the drivers, (this may apply for others as well, but i dont know) and it maybe be a couple of months before they update them...So i hope you like dial-up for the next few months.

I think thats just if you're using a usb connection but the drivers wont be needed for the ethernet connection.

 

[Forbidden.]

This is how you install Windows Vista, Microsoft's latest operating system aimed at home users and small businesses.

http://break.com/index/how_to_properly_load_vista.html

 

[dion7789]

No no we dont need vista....

 

[HotShot]

Mmm delicious Dev price discounts for macs...

Fuck Windows, who needs a GUI, stick with fucking MINIX.

This is fucking bullshit, I got XP

and got this gay spyware/virus thingy and fucken wont go AWAY!!! It doesnt do much its terms process usage or mem hog, but just a taskbar icon that keeps blinking.

FUCKEN GATES!.

MAC STILL SHIT THO.

 

[wyho]

never buy windows when its just out cos of all the bugs and errors, wait a while when its settled down, just like back in november when xp came out. i love my xp so dun really need to change, xp is good enough XD

 

[bizadfar]

No shit. However you want to say it, a Mac is at less risk of virus attack than a PC.

I didn't see 1 person mention DX10?

But still, so expensive and they want to follow Apple's trend to release a new OS or merely a refresh in 2 years. So by the time 1 million people bug test it for you, the next OS is probably close to coming out on the shelves.

Pretty stupid approach I believe Microsoft is taking.

If you want to get vista, just make sure all you're hardware will work on it. (drivers)
Nvidia is the perfect example here of why you should wait a bit.

 

[Collin]

.

I didn't see 1 person mention DX10?

I'm sure I've made it clear that my sole interest in Vista at the moment is for gaming (DX10). Much dollardollar pumped into expensive photographic equipment = less money on my PC stuff = leaving the gaming scene for a year or so. Worst comes to worst, I'll probably return from my exodus in 08/09'. Vista more secure + Intel's Nahalem + G90/R700 + cheaper 30" LCDs = teh_win.

 

[bizadfar]

lol, edit the post why don't you. All i did was ctrl+f "Dx10" and saw it nowhere. Besides you said it indirectly anyway.

G90/R700 is a mistake as with all initial releases, their refreshes are tonnes better. The time to buy these is when ordinary people go crazy and buy the refreshes and sell their not-so-old cards 2nd hand. (Eg, getting an X800XT for $80AUD, X1800XT 512 (6choke 4+2 phase) 3weeks ago for $200).

 

[STx]

Im probably gonna get vista when directx10 games come out and hopefully nvidia improve their drivers by that time lol

errr..i mentioned it on page 2 as well. btw im just hoping nvidia will have their drivers done well when Crysis comes out- for my 8800gts.

 

[Winston]

Pretty stupid approach I believe Microsoft is taking.

Making software isn't like doing magic, you have to take it a step at a time. Although i still see Vista as a quite a quality product, the rest of the world thinks it's average, because they've been seeing the product while it was in BETA. They also think it's nothing special, because OS X has some of the major features in which they tout, but if you read my above post, i do mention some of the features that MS brags about is indeed originally their design, and as you mentioned Apple does in fact have a more frequent release cycle, hence Apple, were able to slip it in.

Now back to the point, apart from many features in Vista, foundationally, there is an overhaul in many aspects of it, and there's probably a lot of functionality held within the basic building blocks. It did take a while to design for a reason too, they were in some ways also prepping themselves for a more frequent release cycle, and in order to do that they needed to lay out their foundations again to cater for the future releases, and provide a smoother path for them as a developers to add new features into the OS.

I don't see why that's stupid, is there another way to do it?

 

[bizadfar]

Making software isn't like doing magic, you have to take it a step at a time. Although i still see Vista as a quite a quality product, the rest of the world thinks it's average, because they've been seeing the product while it was in BETA. They also think it's nothing special, because OS X has some of the major features in which they tout, but if you read my above post, i do mention some of the features that MS brags about is indeed originally their design, and as you mentioned Apple does in fact have a more frequent release cycle, hence Apple, were able to slip it in.

Now back to the point, apart from many features in Vista, foundationally, there is an overhaul in many aspects of it, and there's probably a lot of functionality held within the basic building blocks. It did take a while to design for a reason too, they were in some ways also prepping themselves for a more frequent release cycle, and in order to do that they needed to lay out their foundations again to cater for the future releases, and provide a smoother path for them as a developers to add new features into the OS.

I don't see why that's stupid, is there another way to do it?

I didn't say the OS was stupid, i havn't even tried it yet.
By point was, they plan on refreshing OS every 2 years. I really liked the Win XP stage, where it was really common and lasted for a long time. More than double their newly adopted business plan.

 

[Winston]

I didn't say the OS was stupid, i havn't even tried it yet.
By point was, they plan on refreshing OS every 2 years. I really liked the Win XP stage, where it was really common and lasted for a long time. More than double their newly adopted business plan.

Oh right, so you're opposing on frequent releases.

Yeah but unfortunately the rest of the world doesn't think that way, and cringe when they haven't released one in X years.

 

[Collin]

lol, edit the post why don't you.

Note the '[]' tags.

Besides you said it indirectly anyway.

Well yeah, of course I did. Using common sense, you'd realise I was referring to Microsoft's new API. What else could I have been referring to?

G90/R700 is a mistake as with all initial releases, their refreshes are tonnes better. The time to buy these is when ordinary people go crazy and buy the refreshes and sell their not-so-old cards 2nd hand. (Eg, getting an X800XT for $80AUD, X1800XT 512 (6choke 4+2 phase) 3weeks ago for $200).

First of all, what if one didn't want to buy a second-hand card?

Secondly, what difference is this to people buying new cards and selling their refreshes? It seems what you were trying to say (but worded badly) was that one should wait for newer cards so they can acquire older second-hand cards for much cheaper. Well why does one need to wait for a refresh for this? They don't.

Thirdly, what if I don't want an older card? I said G90/R700 because I want the latest card. Telling me ages ago that I could get an X800XT for $80AUD (which I wouldn't think was a 'normal' second hand price anyway) or an X1800XT for $200 is useless advice. I wait for a particular card because I want that particular new card.

Anyhow, you were going well with 'G90/R700 is a mistake as with all initial releases, their refreshes are tonnes better' (in a different context to what you meant, obviously). Refreshes certainly are better due to potential positive effects of the architecture optimisation to clock speed, hardware enhancements (perhaps more unified shaders), cooling (hence OCing), size, overall bang/buck etc. But if you were going to wait for a refresh for this particular reason (where you REALLY needed a card), why not just wait till the next generation? You'll never end up buying a card.

I've told myself to stay away from the G80/R600 because they are first-generation DX10 cards. Architecture optimisation and cooling would be sacrificed for performance - something which has been leaked out by NVIDIA/ATi sources way before G80's release (due to deadlines). Waiting for the refreshes is a good idea for many in this case. NVIDIA is slated for a possible 65nm shrink for the G81, whilst AMD should be able to have done numerous optimisations to their monster R600 by the time their refresh batch hits the shelves. By the time the G90/R700 comes out, I'm confident most quirks of the DX10 transition would have been ironed out, with Vista having a better driver base.

Waiting for the G90/R700 is not a mistake.