Does God exist? (9 Viewers)

[KFunk]

A potential solution to that first problem: If god is truly omniscient and we possess free will then perhaps god not only knows the 'future' but knows all possible futures that could come to exist given free will.

Given the talk of free will etc. it might be worth putting forward the problem of evil - that if god exists then they have created a universe in which evil exists (depends on how you define evil of course). By virtue of their free will people are able to commit acts of genocide and other atrocities. There are also issues of evil outside the realms of freewill - we have drought (though perhaps triggered by global warming etc. in more recent times), volcanoes, meteors, tidal waves, earth quakes and so on... Would one really want to side with a god who permits such things (or, could a god who possesses the attributes we normally ascribe to god and who permits such things even exist)?

 

[gerhard]

It's not that god permits such things to happen, it's that he purposefully chooses for such thigns to happen. There is no reason why an evil free world (or at least one without natural disasters that are not human created and humans cannot avoid) would have been harder to create then the one we are in now. God must have chosen this world, where evil actions occur, over possible worlds where such actions do not occur.

 

[Dr_Doom]

Wow this debate will never end. God exists. The end.

 

[SashatheMan]

I believe the only path to god, is to consume high doses of LSD and stare into the naked sun for 15 minutes.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Wow this debate will never end. God exists. The end.

Wow what unfathomable incredible evidence you have enlightened us all with! Why yes of course! How unmistakably obvious!

 

[robbie1]

If only you knew how much I pity you people.

Do you not know that what is written in the Book of Revelation has already begun?

Wake up!

 

[ur_inner_child]

If only you knew how much I pity you people.

Do you not know that what is written in the Book of Revelation has already begun?

Wake up!

Oh this. The media went insane with the same sort of "OMG the sea is rising God is coming! the lands are fighting against each other! Jesus is coming!" for the millenium thing as they are now.

I use to be that sort of Christian though: I use to pity those who weren't Christian. I use to even want to save them by bombarding them with how great our morals are. But you know, tolerance is so much more important...

 

[otay]

Wow this debate will never end. God exists. The end.

You're right. God doesn't exist. The end

 

[Not-That-Bright]

If only you knew how much I pity you people.

Do you know how many christians have died believing that Jesus was JUST about to return? You'll be exactly the same robbie. Maybe when you're a very old man and there's a new generation of young gullible children comming to your door telling you about how they believe Jesus will return in THEIR generation, you will finally cast your mind back to how you used to think and realise what has happened to you.

If god is truly omniscient and we possess free will then perhaps god not only knows the 'future' but knows all possible futures that could come to exist given free will.

Omniscience in its self I've now been lead to believe doesn't necessarily limit free will, I was debating it does by saying that if psychics new the future 100% that would limit free will. If someone travels to the future and then finds out you're going to eat a chocolate donut, it was your decision at that time frame that led to the event, they just saw it before it happened.

It doesn't entirely stop the problem for me... Because to me I am not a line of time, I am my present self and the idea that my future self has already lied out for me my future (as bizarre as it sounds) doesn't sit well with me.

I'd also point out that I don't believe in 100% free will, I only think we have relative free will from our position in the universe.

 

[HotShot]

I believe the only path to god, is to consume high doses of LSD and stare into the naked sun for 15 minutes.

sounds like the most spiritual way, but acquiring the holy LSD will is a bit of adventure in itself..

 

[UnIqUe_PrInCeSs]

You're right. God doesn't exist. The end

actually god does exist. the end

 

[ur_inner_child]

Uh, can we have constructive arguments from here on please....?

 

[KFunk]

Omniscience in its self I've now been lead to believe doesn't necessarily limit free will, I was debating it does by saying that if psychics new the future 100% that would limit free will. If someone travels to the future and then finds out you're going to eat a chocolate donut, it was your decision at that time frame that led to the event, they just saw it before it happened.

It doesn't entirely stop the problem for me... Because to me I am not a line of time, I am my present self and the idea that my future self has already lied out for me my future (as bizarre as it sounds) doesn't sit well with me.

I'd also point out that I don't believe in 100% free will, I only think we have relative free will from our position in the universe.

It seems fairly plausible that free will could just be a comfortable illusion - and an ironic one at that. Ironic in that the illusion (if it is one) could lead to a discussion like this. Take things down to the particle level - can fundamental particles make choices? Neither randomness nor determinism easily lend themselves to free will. Trying to show that free will exists is almost as hard as trying to show that god exists - how on earth can you show it? The standard argument of 'look, I touch my leg because I choose to' dies once you realise that you can't rewind the clock and show that you could have chosen otherwise.

 

[sam04u]

Constructive arguments with Christians is like arguing with a brick wall on a building about to be demolished because junkies have been using it to shoot up in.

Are you assuming that they're non-responsive? Because, most modern day agnostics and atheists were once Christians. In that case, it can be seen that if you think you're the most logical, that christians are just one step away from you to 'apparent' enlightenment. Even though that is not the case, when using the theory of the creation of the Universe which I proposed. (lately it's been getting 'some' recognition).

 

[lengy]

Okay here's a thought. Christians believe in 'God'. Say I went around killing Christians. I'm doing them a favour, I'm sending them to their great 'God' early. Is 'God' going to stop me or let me kill them cause I don't think 'He' cares either way and Christians shouldn't get upset because I'm doing them a favour.

 

[sam04u]

Okay here's a thought. Christians believe in 'God'. Say I went around killing Christians. I'm doing them a favour, I'm sending them to their great 'God' early. Is 'God' going to stop me or let me kill them cause I don't think 'He' cares either way and Christians shouldn't get upset because I'm doing them a favour.

How about atheists? They believe that everything is natural, so If I killed atheists as food. Wouldn't that be natural? killing for food?

The logic can be applied either way. Cannabalism? Creationism? Same indifference.

 

[UnIqUe_PrInCeSs]

and um, you don't do christians a favour by killing them :/

they believe that they will go to heaven in the end anyway. There's no hurry

 

[Not-That-Bright]

How about atheists? They believe that everything is natural, so If I killed atheists as food. Wouldn't that be natural? killing for food?

?​

 

[ur_inner_child]

How about atheists? They believe that everything is natural, so If I killed atheists as food. Wouldn't that be natural? killing for food?

The logic can be applied either way. Cannabalism? Creationism? Same indifference.

What does atheism mean to you exactly?

 

[gerhard]

How about atheists? They believe that everything is natural, so If I killed atheists as food. Wouldn't that be natural? killing for food?

The logic can be applied either way. Cannabalism? Creationism? Same indifference.

i think your getting confused between different meanings of the word natural.

athiests believe that all there is is the natural world, but they dont place a value judgement on it. theyre not saying the natural world is good. theyre just saying thats all their is.

saying something is 'natural' doesnt mean anything, except that it is not supernatural, ie not caused by some magical power. so yes, an athiest would think that if you decided to eat him/her, then that wasnt caused by god, so it would be natural.