Does God exist? (15 Viewers)

[inasero]

Ecumenism is an honorable struggle but with the sheer number of denominations and their differing views towards things like homosexual couples, and ordination of female priests, unity may be hard to come by.

Given that it was only formally adopted 40something years ago, i say give it time.

i'm all for unity- but unity just for the sake of it, and when it comes at the cost of compromising our beliefs...that i have a problem with.

 

[Captin gay]

this thread is redundant. i dont care if god exists. if a giant arm came in every dawn to replace the moon with the sun i wouldnt go join a religion.ITS NOT MY THANGGGGGGGGGG

 

[Will Shakespear]

I've already posted about the inconsistency of radiometric dating...but that debate would go on and on.

haha what type of radiometric dating?

uranium-lead
potassium-argon
argon-argon
rubidium-strontium
Samarium-Neodymium
Lutetium-Hafnium
Rhenium-Osmium

you probably thought there was only carbon 14, lol

a quick google for problems with radiometric dating gives you plenty of creationist articles fabricating problems with carbon-14 dating to claim the earth is 'thousands, not millions' of years old (well it isn't millions anyway, it's 4.7 billion, LOL)

when they don't even realise carbon dating only works for about 50,000 so no one would ever have used it to estimate the age of Earth anyway

the funny thing is the creationists don't even know the other methods exist

by the way, the second is defined as the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation of a caesium 133 atom... so I hope you don't have a watch, lol

 

[*TRUE*]

haha what type of radiometric dating?

uranium-lead
potassium-argon
argon-argon
rubidium-strontium
Samarium-Neodymium
Lutetium-Hafnium
Rhenium-Osmium

you probably thought there was only carbon 14, lol

a quick google for problems with radiometric dating gives you plenty of creationist articles fabricating problems with carbon-14 dating to claim the earth is 'thousands, not millions' of years old (well it isn't millions anyway, it's 4.7 billion, LOL)
when they don't even realise carbon dating only works for about 50,000 so no one would ever have used it to estimate the age of Earth anyway

the funny thing is the creationists don't even know the other methods exist

by the way, the second is defined as the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation of a caesium 133 atom... so I hope you don't have a watch, lol

What on earth do u mean? Carbon 14 isnt the only method , lol.
There are others ^ you mentioned some?
EDIT: oops sorry should have read your post better

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html

Thanks.

So basically even if you lived under a rock in the jungle your whole life and had no idea about anything, you'd still go to hell?

Hm....how does someone with no concept of God come to realise that he exists if nobody tells him? I take "his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" to mean that we ought to know he exists simply because the earth he created is so awesome, etc...which is fine but mr. jungle dweller here isn't very likely to see a pretty tree and have an epiphany just like that. Someone has to plant the idea in his head that there's a God first, and if noone does how can God expect him to work it out? :/

 

[inasero]

haha what type of radiometric dating?

uranium-lead
potassium-argon
argon-argon
rubidium-strontium
Samarium-Neodymium
Lutetium-Hafnium
Rhenium-Osmium

you probably thought there was only carbon 14, lol

a quick google for problems with radiometric dating gives you plenty of creationist articles fabricating problems with carbon-14 dating to claim the earth is 'thousands, not millions' of years old (well it isn't millions anyway, it's 4.7 billion, LOL)

when they don't even realise carbon dating only works for about 50,000 so no one would ever have used it to estimate the age of Earth anyway

the funny thing is the creationists don't even know the other methods exist

by the way, the second is defined as the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation of a caesium 133 atom... so I hope you don't have a watch, lol

you're putting words in my mouth.
i never claimed carbon dating was the only method, and i'm certainly not a young earther...i included that example to illustrate that paleogeology isn't an exact science

 

[*TRUE*]

Thanks.

So basically even if you lived under a rock in the jungle your whole life and had no idea about anything, you'd still go to hell?

Hm....how does someone with no concept of God come to realise that he exists if nobody tells him? I take "his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" to mean that we ought to know he exists simply because the earth he created is so awesome, etc...which is fine but mr. jungle dweller here isn't very likely to see a pretty tree and have an epiphany just like that. Someone has to plant the idea in his head that there's a God first, and if noone does how can God expect him to work it out? :/

Im not as knowlededgeable as Inasero etc , but i was taught that God said that EVERY person EVER would have an opportunity to know Him.
Also , some jungle guy might know God in a way we dont understand.
I agree it would be pretty sad if a person was rejected when they never even heard.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Also , some jungle guy might know God in a way we dont understand.

True. Would God care if the way you "knew" him didn't match up with what he wanted? E.g. jungle dude thinks someone created his jungle and puts up a little altar to give, I don't know, nuts or something lol as an offering etc etc...he's acknowledging the idea of God but he's kinda off track as far as worship goes (because don't christians have to accept Jesus as well? or is God enough if you know, you're jungle dude).

 

[inasero]

Thanks.

So basically even if you lived under a rock in the jungle your whole life and had no idea about anything, you'd still go to hell?

Hm....how does someone with no concept of God come to realise that he exists if nobody tells him? I take "his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" to mean that we ought to know he exists simply because the earth he created is so awesome, etc...which is fine but mr. jungle dweller here isn't very likely to see a pretty tree and have an epiphany just like that. Someone has to plant the idea in his head that there's a God first, and if noone does how can God expect him to work it out? :/

your question supposes that it is possible that a person could go through life having "no idea about anything", which i assume you mean not hearing the gospel mesage of salvation. my understanding is that people do intrinsically understand God exists- there was even recent research done in children apparently finding that infants are born with a concept of God, but Atheism has to be learned later on in life. God isn't unjust and I'm sure God will make himself known to a person in one way or another if that person really seeks God- how that would happen in practice I'm not too sure as I can say the majority of people in Australia have the chance to hear the gospel.

 

[inasero]

True. Would God care if the way you "knew" him didn't match up with what he wanted? E.g. jungle dude thinks someone created his jungle and puts up a little altar to give, I don't know, nuts or something lol as an offering etc etc...he's acknowledging the idea of God but he's kinda off track as far as worship goes (because don't christians have to accept Jesus as well? or is God enough if you know, you're jungle dude).

That's a totally reasonable question, since Jesus is such a core figure in Christianity. I think this link may answer your question:

http://www.gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html

So for example, before the time of Jesus the way of being made right with God was through the sacrificial system, in which the sins of an individual would be symbolically placed onto an animal so that the person was no longer held accountable for their own sins (along with a repentant heart). Of course, they couldn't have relied on Jesus because he wasn't there. My understanding is that their actions through faith, if done in anticipation of Jesus' coming, was enough to make them right with God.

I came across an interesting site ages ago which showed that while people might not have known Jesus specifically, cultures from all around the world have had sacrificial systems with remarkable similarities to the Jewish system. Could this be further evidence in support of the Bible passge, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse".

I can't say with absolute certainty either way, but the evidence would seem to suggest so.

 

[Graney]

i'm certainly not a young earther...i included that example to illustrate that paleogeology isn't an exact science

Why are you trying to raise doubt and point out supposed flaws in paleogeology, if you're not a young earther?

 

[*TRUE*]

True. Would God care if the way you "knew" him didn't match up with what he wanted? E.g. jungle dude thinks someone created his jungle and puts up a little altar to give, I don't know, nuts or something lol as an offering etc etc...he's acknowledging the idea of God but he's kinda off track as far as worship goes (because don't christians have to accept Jesus as well? or is God enough if you know, you're jungle dude).

Oh i see
Well (sorry i have to quote the bible ) My bible says that if you truly seek God , you will find him.
So yes, i think that a person seeking God will find him and see his true nature...i think there have been times in my life where i had the wrong idea about God , about His character , he didnt write me off
No one KNOWS all about God. I just know HIM.
I get things wrong all the time , and i go to church , have a bible etc so i think yes , God would have an abundance of Grace for poor old jungle dudes!!!
Also keep in mind...the first Jews etc werent equipped with too much theology either

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

So you can be saved without knowing Jesus as long as you believe in God (assuming that you really had no idea who Jesus is/was, because if you've heard of him then you don't have the excuse of ignorance, correct?). The people who were around before Jesus were saved as long as they believed everything God had so far revealed to them, so therefore my jungle man gets saved too because he doesn't know anything about Jesus. It's easy enough to start thinking that there might be a God in broad terms but you can't expect someone to work out the rest of it without the bible so God can't condemn you for that.

 

[CharlieB]

Thanks.

So basically even if you lived under a rock in the jungle your whole life and had no idea about anything, you'd still go to hell?

Hm....how does someone with no concept of God come to realise that he exists if nobody tells him? I take "his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made" to mean that we ought to know he exists simply because the earth he created is so awesome, etc...which is fine but mr. jungle dweller here isn't very likely to see a pretty tree and have an epiphany just like that. Someone has to plant the idea in his head that there's a God first, and if noone does how can God expect him to work it out? :/

read my post on page 631

 

[*TRUE*]

So you can be saved without knowing Jesus as long as you believe in God (assuming that you really had no idea who Jesus is/was, because if you've heard of him then you don't have the excuse of ignorance, correct?). The people who were around before Jesus were saved as long as they believed everything God had so far revealed to them, so therefore my jungle man gets saved too because he doesn't know anything about Jesus. It's easy enough to start thinking that there might be a God in broad terms but you can't expect someone to work out the rest of it without the bible so God can't condemn you for that.

Mmmhmm
Thats what i think.
Jesus is God , so u know God , you know Jesus

 

[*TRUE*]

Why are you trying to raise doubt and point out supposed flaws in paleogeology, if you're not a young earther?

Our understanding of science is ever changing.... Inasero pointing out flaws is healthy.

 

[Blastoise]

Yeah pointing out flaws is healthy given the assumption that you actually understand the current thinking and are criticizing it on a scientifically sound basis with the aim of proposing a better alternative

not "oh there's 10% variation in the results of study x, therefore THE BIBLE"

 

[Graney]

Our understanding of science is ever changing.... Inasero pointing out flaws is healthy.

But not relevant?

Inasero is NOT a young earther, but he feels the need to point out flaws with paleogeology in this thread, for the lolz. I don't get it.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

read my post on page 631

sorry missed it

yeah I figured God wouldn't send you to hell for ignorance.

As for the seeking God thing...I wonder...if someone (hypothetically) who both didn't know about God and didn't seek him either, being content without any spiritual aspect to their lives, would go to heaven. Like, they don't know God for whatever reason...and so they just never really get around to thinking he might be out there...what's God going to do? It'd be unfair to punish them because they didn't know but I keep seeing this "you have to at least seek God to get to heaven" theme coming through.

 

[inasero]

well see that's the thing, cos the bible also says

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved

So I'm of the belief that the "jungle person" has to sacrifice in faith in anticipation of Jesus coming...and if they desired to be made right so fervently, with honest intention, God would make Jesus clear to them. I recognise that the Bible doesn't say much on this area and that it's a highly contentious issue, so not everybody might agree with my opinions.