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Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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erin_tonkin

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SashatheMan said:
wow thats really amazing. the stupidity of people is just ..........i cant say no more
while an interesting article it doesnt say where in the bible it says that the eearth is flat.
i'd be interested to know.
 

Not-That-Bright

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I believe the presumption is because so many things occur all around the world at once in the bible, that in the bible the assumption is made constantly that the world is flat.
 

MoonlightSonata

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Patchy said:
1 Chronicles 16:30 (New International Version)

30 Tremble before him, all the earth!
The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

Psalm 93:1 (New International Version)


1 The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty;
the LORD is robed in majesty
and is armed with strength.
The world is firmly established;
it cannot be moved.


As you can see it is talking about the world...and not the Earth.
As far as I am aware, it is not "world", but "Earth." It is:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

But even if you are correct, I do not see how substituting "world" would get you anywhere.

Anyway, I'm not going to continue debating the Bible, since there is no reason to. The point was simply that it is not 100% true.
 

MoonlightSonata

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BradCube said:
Before I answer back to some of these straight away, I will do a complete amount of research, and get back to you about it in full. It could take me a while though, so bare with me.
I wouldn't bother, there is little point.
 

BradCube

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Not-That-Bright said:
I believe the presumption is because so many things occur all around the world at once in the bible, that in the bible the assumption is made constantly that the world is flat.
There is no evidence to say that the bible says the world is flat. In fact, it teaches the opposite. The bible teaches the true shape of the earth.

"The Bible of course teaches the correct shape of the earth. Isaiah 40:22 says God sits above 'the circle of the earth' (the Hebrew word for 'circle' can also mean a 'sphere'). Also, Luke 17:34-36 depicts Christ's Second Coming as happening while some are asleep at night and others are working at day-time activities in the field-an indication of a rotating earth with day and night at the same time." http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c034.html

"The bible says the world is flat" is simply a myth. There is no teaching in the bible to suggest such a thing.
 
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MoonlightSonata

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BradCube said:
Oh there is a point, simply to show that the bible isn't as fallible as you think it is.
1. It doesn't matter. As I've already said, scientific/historical accuracy doesn't prove the extraordinary claims made by it.

2. Those were just examples, to show that it was not 100% true. If you really want, here are some more dubious claims made in the Bible that show just how backward it is in light of science. The reader will note how questions about the unknown were answered with myth and legend. The reader will see how some ethical values were passed on and set to be enforced through the fear of god. Above all the reader will see that with the knowledge and understanding of the world that we now have, such writings are absurd and barbaric.


Science and History in the Bible

"Why should the Bible be believed concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when it is considered to be erroneously written as to points which admit of direct demonstration or unquestionable reasoning?" -- St. Augustine De Genesi ad literam i, 19

Genesis

1. The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The true order of events was just the opposite. 1:1-2:3

2. God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5

3. God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8

4. Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

5. God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11

6. In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

7. God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16

8. "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

9. "And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17

10. In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24

11. God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26

12. God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28

13. All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30

14. "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31

15. In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31

16. Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7

17. After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. But animals were not created instantaneously from the ground, but evolved over millions of years. And we still don't have names for all of them. Ten thousand new species of insects are discovered and named each year. 2:18-22

18. God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19

19. God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14

20. Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18

21. "There were giants in the earth in those days." Well, I suppose it's good to know that. But why is there no archaeological evidence for the existence of these giants? 6:4

22. Noah is told to make an ark that is 450 feet long. 6:14-15

23. Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8

24. God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11

25. All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14

26. The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20

27. "The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2

28. Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11

29. When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find their way back after the flood subsided? 8:19

30. Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. 8:20-21

31. "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1

32. According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2

33. "Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2

34. God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He even puts the rainbow in the sky to remind himself of his promise to the animals not to do it again. But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13

35. Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationists disagree. 10:25

36. "The whole earth was of one language." But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others. 11:1, 6

37. God worries that people could build a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6

38. According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God. But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time. 11:9

39. The ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs. 11:10-32

40. "And they returned to the land of the Philistines." But the Philistines didn't arrive in the region of Canaan until around 1200 BCE -- 800 years after Abraham's supposed migration from Ur. 21:32, 26:1, 8, 15, 18

41. Laban learns "by experience" that God has blessed him for Jacob's sake. "By experience" means "by divination", at least that is how most other versions translate this verse. 30:27

42. Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39

43. Joseph and his magic divining cup. 44:5, 44:15

Exodus

44. It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than ten days. 16:35

45. The Israelite population went from 70 (or 75) to several million in a few hundred years. 1:5,7, 12:37, 38:26

46. Why are some people born with disabilities? Because God deliberately makes them that way. 4:11

47. God led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan. 13:17

48. "The manna referred to in the Bible, in Exodus 16:14, seems to have been the dried excrement of Trabutina mannipara, a scale insect that feeds on tamarisk trees." Benjamin B. Normark, The Sex Lives of Scales, Natural History, Sept. 2004. 16:14-15

Leviticus

49. The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they "chew the cud" but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not "chew the cud." 11:5-6

50. Bats are birds to the biblical God. 11:13, 19

51. Be sure to watch out for those "other flying creeping things which have four feet." (I wish God wouldn't get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You'd think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have! 11:23

52. God's treatment for leprosy: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-52

Numbers

53. The Israelite population went from seventy (Ex.1:5) to several million (over 600,000 adult males) in just a few generations! 1:45-46

54. God sends quails to feed his people until they were "two cubits [about a meter] high upon the face of the earth." Taking the "face of the earth" to be a circle with a radius of say 30 kilometers (an approximate day's journey), this would amount to 3 trillion (3x1012) liters of quails. At 2 quails per liter, this would provide a couple million quails for each of several million people. 11:31

55. God strikes Miriam with leprosy. (In the Bible, leprosy is caused by the wrath of God or the malice of Satan.) 12:10

56. "And there we saw the giants ... And we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." This statement may have been figurative, hyperbole, typical biblical exaggeration, or an actual description of the sons of Anak, in which case they must have been about 100 meters tall. These are the same giants (the Nephilium) that resulted when the "sons of God" mated with "the daughters of men in Gen.6:4. Of course these superhuman god-men should have been destroyed in the flood. So what are they doing still alive? 13:33

57. It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than ten days. 14:33, 32:13

58. God's cure for snakebite: a brass serpent on a pole. 21:8

59. God has "the strength of a unicorn." Oh heck, I bet he's even stronger than a unicorn. 23:22, 24:8

Deuteronomy

60. It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than ten days. 2:7, 8:2, 29:5

61. "A land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time." (They must have been much more common back then.) 2:10-11, 20-21

62. Og, the king of the giants, was a tall man, even by NBA standards. His bed measured 9 by 4 cubits (13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide). 3:11

63. God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. These nations were "greater and mightier" than the Israelites, who according to Ex.12:37 and Num.1:45-46 already had numbered several million. So the region, according to the bible, must have had a population of more than twenty million! 7:1

64. This verse mistakenly says that the hare chews its cud. 14:7-8

65. To the biblical God, a bat is just an another unclean bird. 14:11, 18

66. "Their wine is the poison of dragons." I wonder what genus and species the bible is referring to when it mentions dragons. 32:33

67. Joseph's "horns are like the horns of a unicorn." 33:17

Joshua

68. It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than ten days. 5:6

69. In Joshua 8 the Israelites destroy Ai and make it a desolate heap. But archaeology has revealed that Ai was an abandoned city by the time of the Israelites and that this story is nothing more than a myth invented to explain the ruins of an ancient city that the Israelites encountered. 8:1-29

70. This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28

71. In a divine type of daylight savings time, God makes the sun stand still so that Joshua can get all his killing done before dark. 10:12-13

72. "And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which as of the remnant of the giants...." 12:4, 18:16

Judges

73. "The stars in their courses fought against Sisera." Unless astrology is true, how can the stars affect the outcome of a battle? 5:20

74. "As the sun ... goeth forth in his might." The sun, according to the bible, goes around the earth. 5:31
1 Samuel

75. "The pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them. 2:8

76. Goliath was ten feet tall ("six cubits and a span"). 17:4

2 Samuel

77. In what is surely a biblical exaggeration, we are told that "the servants of David" killed 20,000 soldiers in one day. And that "the wood [forest] devoured more people that day than the sword devoured." It must have been spooky forest to have devoured more than 20,000 soldiers. There were probably lots of lions and tigers and bears. (Oh my!)18:7-8

78. The earth shakes, the foundations of heaven move, smoke comes out of God's nostrils, and fire out of his mouth. 22:8-16

79. How many soldiers did Israel have? This verse says that Judah and Israel had a total of 1,300,000 fighting men (1 Chr.21:5 says 1,570,000) in this battle. Of course, this is a ridiculously high number for a battle between two tribal armies in 1000 BCE. (The United States had about 1.37 million active duty soldiers in 2001.) 24:9

1 Kings

80. This verse implies that the value of p is 3. (The actual value is approximately 3.14159.) 7:23

81. God creates droughts by causing "heaven to shut up" as a punishment for sin. 8:35

82. Ever the playful spirit, God withers, and then restores, the hand of king Jeroboam. 13:4

2 Kings

83. Elisha cures a leper, but only after the leper dips himself seven times in the Jordan. 5:14

84. Elisha not only can cure leprosy, he can also dish it out. Here he makes his servant (Gehazi) and all his descendants lepers forever. 5:27

85. A dead body is brought to life when it accidentally touches the bones of Elisha. 13:21

86. Isaiah, with a little help from God, makes the sun move backwards ten degrees. Now that's quite a trick. All at once, the earth stopped spinning and then reversed its direction of rotation. Or maybe the sun traveled around the earth in those days! 20:11

1 Chronicles

87. Some creationists believe that this verse (and Gen.10:25) refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. 1:19

88. "The earth ... shall be stable, that it be not moved." It doesn't spin on its axis or travel about the sun. 16:30

89. According to this verse David's army had 1,100,000 men from Israel and 470,000 men from Judah, Of course, this numbers is ridiculously high for a battle between two tribal armies in 1000 BCE. (The United States had about 1.37 million active duty soldiers in 2001.) 21:5 David provides Solomon with a fantastically large amount of gold and silver with which to build the temple: 100,000 talents of gold and 1,000,000 talents of silver. Since a talent was about 60 pounds, this would be about 3,000 tons of gold and 30,000 tons of silver. 22:14

90. King David collects ten thousand drams (or darics) for the construction of the temple in Jerusalem. This is especially interesting since darics were coins named after King Darius I who lived some five hundred years after David. 29:7

91. As usual, the reported amounts of gold, silver, and iron are grossly exaggerated. (100,000 talents of iron, for example, would be about 34 million kilograms.) 29:7

2 Chronicles

92. Since the molten sea was round with a diameter of ten cubits and a circumference of thirty cubits, we know that the biblical value of p is 3. (The actual value is approximately 3.14159.) 4:2

93. Abijah spoke to 1,200,000 soldiers at one time. (He had a really loud voice.) 13:3-4

94. 500,000 soldiers die in a single God-assisted slaughter. 13:16-17

95. In the largest single God-assisted massacre in the bible, Asa, with God's help, kills one million Ethiopians. 14:8-14

96. Asa, when he had a foot disease, went to physicians instead of seeking the Lord. (God disapproves of those who seek medical help rather than "seeking the Lord.") 16:12

97. God makes Uzziah a leper for burning incense without a license. 26:19-21

Esther

98. "Haman thought in his heart." Most people think with their heads, but biblical folks think with their hearts. 6:6

Job

99. The earth rests upon pillars and doesn't move (unless God gets angry or something). 9:6

100. Heaven is set upon pillars that tremble when God gets mad. 26:11

101. The earth is set on foundations and it does not move. 38:4-6

102. God has snow and hail all stored up to use later "in time of trouble." 38:22

103. God spread out the sky, which is a solid structure, hard and strong like a mirror. 37:18

104. Ostriches are not cruel and stupid birds who abandon their eggs to die after laying them, as these verses imply. They are, in fact, careful and attentive parents. The male scoops out a hollow for the eggs, which are incubated by the female during the day and the male at night. After the eggs are hatched, they are cared for by the mother for over a month, at which time the chicks can keep up with running adults. 39:13-16

105. The bible is wrong about ostriches being cruel and inattentive parents (39:13-16). But if they were, whose fault would it be? Why would God deprive them of the tools that are needed to do the job right? 39:17

106. Bible believers have identified the behemoth as a hippopotamus, dinosaur, wildebeest, or crocodile. But my favorite is the way these verses are translated by Stephen Mitchell: "Look now: the Beast that I made: he eats grass like a bull. Look: the power in his thighs, the pulsing sinews of his belly. His penis stiffens like a pine; his testicles bulge with vigor." 40:15-16

107. "Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord?" 41:1-34

Psalms

108. The earth shakes whenever God really gets mad. 18:7

109. "The foundations of the world were discovered ... at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils." (The earth is set on firm foundations and does not move -- unless God blows his nose.) 18:15

110. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." 19:1

111. The sun moves around the earth. 19:4-6

112. From his seat in heaven, God can see the whole earth and all its inhabitants.
(He sits directly above the earth, which is a flat disc below him.) 33:14-15

113. Diseases are sent by God to punish sin. 38:3

114. According to the psalmist, snails melt. But they don't, of course, they simply leave a slimy trail as they move along. 58:8

115. God is so strong that he can break the head of dragons and of leviathan. 74:13-14

116. God holds the earth up with pillars. 75:3

117. Another reference to "the foundations of the earth", implying that the earth is fixed and does not move. 82:5

118. "Thou hast broken Rahab [the sea monster] in pieces." 89:10

119. "The world also is established, that it cannot be moved." 93:1

120. "The world also shall be established that it shall not be moved." 96:10

121. "The Lord ... who healeth all thy diseases." God heals all diseases. Medical science is unnecessary. 103:2-3

122. "God ... who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain" 104:5

123. "In wisdom hast thou made them all." 104:24

124. God is offended by those who make things with their hands or invent things with their minds. 106:39

125. "The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works." Then why do nearly all animals die painful deaths from starvation, predation, or disease long before they reach adulthood? 145:9

126. God "satisfiest the desire of every living thing." But in nature few needs are met and few desires are satisfied. Life is short, hard, cruel, and painful for nearly every living thing. 145:17

127. "Praise him in the firmament of his power." 150:1

Ecclesiastes

128. "The sun also ariseth"
Although this verse is interpreted figuratively today, it was taken literally by virtually all Christians until the Copernican revolution, and was used by the Church to condemn Galileo for teaching the heliocentric heresy. 1:5

129. "He hath made every thing beautiful."
Everything is beautiful in its own way. Parasitic worms, cancer cells, bubonic plague. You just have to look at it from God's eyes. 3:11

130. "No man can find out the work that God maketh."
Science is impossible. We can learn nothing at all about the natural world. 3:11
Isaiah

131. "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb...." I wonder what will become of the spiders. Will they be more friendly toward flies? And will the parasitic wasps find another way to feed their larvae? Or will they continue to feed off the living bodies of caterpillars? 11:6, 65:25

132. "And the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den." A cockatrice is a serpent, hatched from a cock's egg, that can kill with a glance. They are rare nowadays. 11:8

133. God will gather up the people of Judea "from the four corners of the earth." In the Bible's view, the earth is flat with four corners. 11:12

134. According to the Bible, the moon produces its own light and the earth does not move. 13:10

135. When God gets really angry, he causes earthquakes. 13:13

136. Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22

137. Out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent." What ever happened to these fascinating biblical creatures? 14:29

138. God will turn the earth upside down, knock it off of its foundations, and then shake and bake it until it "reels to and fro like a drunkard." 24:1, 18-20

139. God will punish the leviathan ("that crooked serpent") with his own sword and will kill the sea dragon. 27:1

140. Natural disasters (earthquakes, storms, fires, tsunamis) are caused by, and are a sign of, God's wrath. 29:7

141. Among the many strange creatures mentioned in the Bible that no longer seem to exist is the "fiery flying serpent." 30:6

142. "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now. 30:26

143. "And the unicorns shall come down with them." 34:7

144. Dragons and satyrs may not seem real to you, but they did to the author of these verses. 34:13-14

145. God makes the sun move backwards 10 degrees. Now that's a neat trick! 38:8

146. The earth is a flat disc that God looks down upon from his throne in heaven. 40:22

147. Even the dragons honor God. 43:20

148. God cut Rahab (the sea monster) to pieces, wounded the dragon, and dried up the sea. 51:9-10

149. Bad people hatch poisonous cockatrice eggs. Whoever eats the eggs will die, and when the eggs are crushed a viper hatches out of them. 59:5

150. "Neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee." Of course the moon doesn't give off light, but only reflects the light from the sun. 60:19

Jeremiah

151. Droughts are punishments from God. 3:3

152. "I will send serpents, cockatrices among you, which will not be charmed, and they shall bite you." A cockatrice is a serpent, hatched from a cock's egg, that can kill with a glance. They are rare nowadays. 8:17

153. When God gets angry, the earth trembles. (That's what causes earthquakes.) 10:10

154. The wild asses "snuffed up the wind like dragons." 14:6

155. The earth is set on foundations and does not move. 31:37

Lamentations

156. Ostriches are not cruel and inattentive parents, as this verse implies. They are, in fact, careful and attentive parents. The male scoops out a hollow for the eggs, which are incubated by the female during the day and the male at night. After the eggs are hatched, they are cared for by the mother for over a month, at which time the chicks can keep up with running adults. 4:3

Ezekiel

157. "The firmament ... the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above." 1:22

158. The world is flat and has four corners. 7:2

159. The firmament is over the heads of the cherubim. 10:1

160. God "will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light." To Ezekiel, the sun is just a little light that can be covered with a cloud, and the moon produces its own light. 32:7

Daniel

161. The third year of the reign of Jehoiakim would be 606 BCE, at which time Nebuchadnezzar was not yet king of Babylon. It was 597 BCE that Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem for the first time (without actually destroying it). By that time Jehohiakim was dead and his son, Jehoiachin, was ruling. 1:1

162. The stone became "a great mountain" that "filled the whole earth." This could only be possible on a flat, disc-shaped earth. 2:35

163. Daniel's tree is tall enough to be seen from "the end of all the earth." Only on a flat earth would this be possible. 4:10-11, 20

164. Apparently, the author of Daniel knew of only two Babylonian kings during the period of the exile: Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, who he wrongly thought was the son of Nebuchadnezzar. But Nebuchadnezzar died in 562 BCE and was succeeded by his son, Awil-Marduk (referred to in the bible as "Evilmerodach" [see 2 Kg.25:27 and Jer.52:31]). In 560 BCE, Amel-Marduk was assassinated by his brother-in-law, Nergal-shar-usur. The next and last king of Babylon was Nabonidus who reigned from 556 to 539, when Babylon was conquered by Cyrus. It was Nabonidus, and not Belshazzar, who was the last of the Babylonian kings. Belshazzar was a the son and viceroy of Nabonidus. But he was not a king, and was not the son (or any other relation) of Nebuchadnezzar. 5:2,11,18,22

165. Darius the Median is a fictitious character whom the author perhaps confused with Darius I of Persia, who came to the throne in 521 BCE, 17 years after the fall of Babylon. The author of Daniel incorrectly makes him the successor of Belshazzar instead of Cyrus. 5:31

166. To Daniel, the stars are small objects that can fall from the sky and then be "stamped upon." 8:10

167. "They ... shall shine as the brightness of the firmament." 12:3

Joel

168. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood." These "signs" were a lot more impressive before the causes of solar and lunar eclipses were understood. 2:31

Amos

169. God destroyed the Amorites who were a race of giants as tall as cedars and as strong as oaks. 2:9

170. It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than ten days. 2:10

Jonah

171. God makes "a great fish" to swallow Jonah. And Jonah stayed in the fish's belly for three days and three nights. 1:17

172. "Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey." That would make it about 60 miles in diameter -- larger than Los Angeles! 3:3

Micah

173. The earth is set upon strong foundations and therefore does not move. 6:2

Nahum

174. Tornadoes, earthquakes, and fires are caused by God and are signs of his anger. 1:5

Habakkuk

175. "The sun and moon stood still in their habitation." This verse apparently refers to Joshua 10:12-13, where God makes the sun stand still. 3:11

Matthew

176. When was Jesus born? 2:1

177. "The star ... went before them."
If the star "went before them," leading them to Bethlehem, then it couldn't have been a star or any other astronomical object or event. But Matthew couldn't have known that. Everyone at the time thought that stars were just little points of light a short distance above the earth. It'd be no problem to have one hover above a particular place for a while. 2:9

178. Herod kills all boys in and around Bethlehem that are two years old and under. Such a massacre would certainly have been noted by contemporary historians. Yet not even Josephus, who documented Herod's life in detail, mentioned this event. 2:16

179. The devil kidnaps Jesus and takes him up to the top of the temple, and then to the top of "an exceedingly high mountain," high enough to see "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the earth was flat in those days. 4:8

180. "Behold the fowls of the air...." Jesus says that God feeds them. But, if so, he does one hell of a lousy job at it. Most birds die before leaving the nest, and the few who manage to fly soon die painful deaths of starvation, predation, or disease. If God is caring for them, pray that he stays away from you. 6:26

181. Speaking of the birds, Jesus asks: "Are ye not much better than they?" This is meant as a rhetorical question, but the answer is far from obvious to me. I guess to Jesus, though, birds are not worth much compared to humans. So you can do whatever the hell you want with (and to) them. 6:26

182. According to Matthew, people who cannot speak are possessed by the devil. 9:32-33

183. Jesus gives his disciples "power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness." 10:1

184. Jesus tells his disciples to perform all the usual tricks: "heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils." 10:8

185. God is involved in the death of every sparrow. He sees to it that they each die painful deaths of starvation, predation, or disease. But don't worry. God will do the same for you. (He thinks that humans are worth much more than sparrows.) 10:29. 31

186. Jesus casts out a devil from a man who was blind and dumb. (Thos we are unable to see or hear are possessed by devils.) 12:22

187. Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. And since there are no trees in the mustard family, mustard seeds do not grow into "the greatest of all trees." 13:31-32

188. Jesus cures an epileptic "lunatic" by "rebuking the devil." (Epilepsy is caused by devils.) 17:15-18

189. "The moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven." Apparently, Jesus believed that the moon produces its own light, and that the stars are lights held in place by a firmament only a few miles above our heads. 24:29

190. Jesus believed that Noah's flood actually happened. 24:37

191. When Jesus was crucified, there was three hours of complete darkness "over all the land." And when he died, there was a great earthquake with many corpses walking the streets of Jerusalem. It is strange that there is no record of any of these extraordinary events outside of the gospels. 27:45, 51-53

Mark

192. Jesus is incorrect when he says that the mustard seed is the smallest seed. (The smallest seeds are found among the tropical, epiphytic orchids.) 4:31

193. "Thy faith hath made thee whole." If you have enough faith, you will never get sick. (Illness is caused by sin and lack of faith. Medical science is unnecessary.) 5:34

194. Jesus heals a boy with "a dumb spirit" by saying, "Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him and enter no more into him." (Sounds like a script from Monty Python, doesn't it?) But how could a deaf spirit hear the words spoken to it? And how could a dumb spirit cry out? 9:17, 25-26

195. "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."
Jesus believed that sex and Adam and Eve were created "from the beginning." But the universe is about 13.6 billion years old, the earth 4.6 billion, sex a billion years or so, and humans (depending on how you define "human") for a couple million years. 10:6

196. "In those days ... the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall." Of course this is nonsense. The billions of stars will never fall to earth and the moon does not produce its own light. 13:24-25

197. When Jesus was crucified, there was three hours of complete darkness "over the whole land." It is strange that there is no record of this extraordinary event outside of the gospels. 15:33

Luke

198. When was Jesus born? 2:1

199. The devil takes Jesus to the top of a mountain and shows him "all the kingdoms of the world." I guess the world was flat in those days. 4:5

200. Epilepsy is caused by devils. 9:39

201. People who cannot speak are possessed with devils. 11:14

202. Illnesses are caused by Satan. 13:11-16

203. Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. 17:26-27

204. Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history. 17:29-32

205. "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars." 21:25

206. When Jesus was crucified, there was three hours of complete darkness "over all the earth." It is strange that there is no record of this extraordinary event outside of the gospels. 23:44-45

John

207. "These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing." But no such site is known in history. Some translations (ASV, NAB, NIV, RSV, NRSV) rename Bethabara as Bethany, but Bethany is a suburb of Jerusalem and, therefore, not "beyond the Jordan." 1:28

208. "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
Good question, Jesus! He was wrong about creation in Mk.10:6, wrong about the flood in Lk.17:26-27, and wrong about the smallest seed in Mt.13:31-32. So why would anyone believe him when he talks about heaven in Jn.3:16? 3:12

209. Whoever enters a pool after it is stirred up by angels will be cured of "whatsoever disease he had." 5:4

210. Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

211. The disciples ask Jesus about the cause of a man's blindness. Was it because he or his parents sinned? Jesus said neither had sinned. The man was born blind so that Jesus could show off his powers by curing him of his blindness. 9:1-3

212. A blind man's sight is restored by washing in the pool of Siloam. 9:7

Acts

213. "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?"
This verse was used by a Dominican friar to discourage the use of Galileo's telescope. (Notice the pun on Galileo's name in "men of Galilee".) 1:11

214. The prophets have spoken "since the world began," which means that humans have been around since the creation of the world. But humans are recent arrivals on an ancient earth. There were no prophets when the earth formed 4.6 billion years ago. 3:21

215. The sick were healed just by touching the shadow of Peter. 5:15-16

216. It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than ten days. 7:36, 13:18

217. Sick people are oppressed by the devil. 10:38

218. Sick people were cured by touching the handkerchief or apron of Paul. And the evil spirits when out of them." 19:12

219. Paul is bitten by a poisonous snake and yet lives. The "barbarians" who were shipwrecked with him thought he must be a murderer since he was bitten; but then they changed their minds and thought him to be a god since he didn't die. (The snake story is especially interesting since there are no poisonous snakes on Malta, and there is no evidence of their existence in the past.) 28:3-8

Romans

220. The existence and nature of God are self-evident. 1:20

221. The Religious Right often uses Romans 1:21-25 to condemn environmentalists. 1:21-25

222. Paul claims that before Adam sinned death did not exist. But, of course, death didn't enter the world a few thousand years ago because of Adam's sin. Death has been a part of life since life first arose (on this planet, at least) a few billion years ago. 5:12

223. Paul says that everyone, even in his day, had the gospel preached to them. Even the Native Americans, Asians, Pacific Islanders? 10:18

1 Corinthians

224. Paul shows his ignorance (and God's) of biology by saying that only dead seeds will germinate. Actually, a seed must be alive to germinate. 15:36

Ephesians

225. Satan is the "prince of the power of the air." Until modern times Christians believed that Satan was responsible for storms and droughts. 2:2

Colossians

226. "For by him were all things created.... All things were created by him, and for him.... And by him all things consist." Including guinea worms? 1:16-17

1 Timothy

227. Paul instructs Timothy to avoid science, especially that which disagrees with him ("science falsely so called"). Other versions translate this phrase as "false knowledge", which may be more correct. However many fundamentalist Christians still use this verse ("science falsely so called") to justify their rejection of any idea, scientific or otherwise, they believe contradicts the bible. 6:20

Hebrews

228. God set the earth on a foundation; therefore, it does not move. 1:10

James

229. James says that, even in his day, all beasts, birds, serpents, and sea creatures had been tamed by humans. 3:7

230. If you are sick, rely on the power of prayer. It works every time. 5:14-15

231. By praying, Elias was able to keep it from raining for three and a half years. 5:17

2 Peter

232. Those who disbelieve in the Bible's creation and flood stories are "willingly ignorant." 3:5

Revelation

233. "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him." This could only happen on a flat earth. 1:7

234. Jesus holds seven stars in his hand. Of course, it is possible that this is metaphorical. Perhaps. But it is clear from other verses (6:13, 8:10, 12:4) that John thought of stars as being small, perhaps even small enough for Jesus to hold in his hand. 1:16

235. "Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." God created predators, pathogens, and predators for his very own pleasure. One of his favorite species is guinea worms. 4:11

236. The sixth seal is opened and there is a great earthquake, the sun becomes black, and the moon red, the stars fall from heaven, and mountains and islands move around. 6:12-14

237. "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...." To John, the stars are just little lights a few miles away that can easily fall to the earth. 6:13

238. John "saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth." Well, I guess that settles it: the earth is flat and square-shaped, or at least quadrilateral in shape. 7:1

239. An angel threw the censer down to earth, causing thunder, lightning, and earthquakes. 8:5

240. "And there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters." In the bible, stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky. 8:10

241. The fourth trumpet smites one third of the sun, moon, and stars. 8:12

242. "I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth." 9:1

243. God's witnesses have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain, turn rivers into blood, and smite the earth with plagues "as often as they will." 11:6

244. The dragon's tail smacks down to earth one third of the stars. To the author of Revelation, the stars are just little lights that can fall to the ground from the sky. 12:4
 

Salima

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MoonlightSontana said:
Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth
My mother does this. I don't get it. But then she doesn't get me either. That's th thing with belief. BUt you'll try to understand the other.
But the thing is, as I've found out, they use the idea of patterns. The universe has a pattern to it. This is the zodiac.
But the thing is also, how can it be real when it first born into existence (like somewhere between 2000-600BC i read) that they only knew of 5 planets. They thought is real right? But how can you if your using basically half the planets to find these patterns in the univese to understand yourself and what will happen to you. Now they know of all 9 planets. But what if there are more too? But everyone has a little bit of the other zodiac signs (scorpio, saggitarius...etc) in them when they look at things...so...I still don't get it. By mom uses a program that goes real indepth, like looking exactly at the hour and place and even minutes of birth. She uses longitude and latitude. It makes claims like, I'm good working alone, I'm going to be successful in a career with something retangular involved. But what if I took this, and grabbed the first job like this because I heard this? And I would take the job even if I didn't like it because I heard this? And I end up in a peepshow box, with a rectangular viewing space for the men! Wrong!....I mean it makes you lose yourself. You look always to this thing, and never to the feelings inside, which will prove more right than wrong, like this thing. Like it may predict hardship and troubles, but you can then choose not to do something that youthink will cause this and then the prediction won't come true! Then it's wrong isn't it?

Trusting yourself and what you believe is right in your heart is what you want everyone here should do. If that trust leads you to god, away form god, or into aeithism, or agnosticism, or into Buddhism or some other religious group or you make up your own belief by taking bits from the ones you like like my mom) then so be it. That is you way, and this is mine.

This forum is about proving that god does exist, since every religious text put foreward tries to be disputed...and either in the disputers eyes they 'win', or in the person who puts the text foreward they 'win', because they both believe so completely in what they believe in. I mean the disputers seem to say, "That's bullshit that's crap you're belief i that is rediculous!" Rather than going.."I was wondering why do believe in it so strongly what made you see life this way"...or..."What does this verse here represent in your religion, what does it mean to you as well...becuase I cannot understand it myself with my views on religion, but I am open and are willing to hear what you have to say." It's just "your texts are wrong wrong wrong!"*tantrum baby noice, fists banging to ground!* I'm just saying both ways can be more open, but we shouldn't (I've done this in the past, I am sorry) just say each ohter are wrong, becuase both are concrete in their views. Neither will budge--but to me, until God decides it to be.

I think this thread has gone on way to long, and spirilling out of control in a way because it goes round and round in circles!
 

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Salima, we do not merely say "that is bullshit." Non-believers have consistently dismantled, logically, the arguments put forward.

People do put forward their views on why they believe it, and they are then challenged. They are criticised because people think that they are illogical or misguided in some way. The non-believers here are not concrete in their beliefs because they are stubborn. They are concrete in their beliefs because they believe that the arguments presented in favour of god are invalid. Unfortunately, most of the theists here do not understand the criticism of their beliefs.

There are some, such as Lex, who actually understand what people have to say in response. Most of the other theists here however do not seem to have a very strong grasp of reason or argument. They do not understand deductive logic, or they do not know about fallacies of argument and when they are committing them.
 

Salima

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MoonlightSonata said:
Salima, we do not merely say "that is bullshit." Non-believers have consistently dismantled, logically, the arguments put forward.

People do put forward their views on why they believe it, and they are then challenged. They are criticised because people think that they are illogical or misguided in some way. The non-believers here are not concrete in their beliefs because they are stubborn. They are concrete in their beliefs because they believe that the arguments presented in favour of god are invalid. Unfortunately, most of the theists here do not understand the criticism of their beliefs.

There are some, such as Lex, who actually understand what people have to say in response. Most of the other theists here however do not seem to have a very strong grasp of reason or argument. They do not understand deductive logic, or they do not know about fallacies of argument and when they are committing them.
Like me you mean. I know I know. But Idid not mean non-believers in a bad way. I did not mean they were stubborn either. I'm a stubborn person (DAMN MY MOTHERS GENES!...I wish I'd done biology it was fun. But all da blood!) But this is what I was also trying to say. The way the arguements are put foreward seemonly to criticise, and, they do question, but always being with a putting down style criticism is all. But we must both have our say, otherwise the world would not be itself, and humans would not have equal freedom.

I still don't get the idea of where people though find the thing saying muhammad rapped a chick of 5 or 7....he owuld have been like wot? 50 or 40 at the time with like 50 or 40 (over exacgeration here of coure) or his own wives!
 

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Salima said:
Like me you mean. I know I know. But Idid not mean non-believers in a bad way. I did not mean they were stubborn either. I'm a stubborn person (DAMN MY MOTHERS GENES!...I wish I'd done biology it was fun. But all da blood!) But this is what I was also trying to say. The way the arguements are put foreward seemonly to criticise, and, they do question, but always being with a putting down style criticism is all. But we must both have our say, otherwise the world would not be itself, and humans would not have equal freedom.

I still don't get the idea of where people though find the thing saying muhammad rapped a chick of 5 or 7....he owuld have been like wot? 50 or 40 at the time with like 50 or 40 (over exacgeration here of coure) or his own wives!
It's true alot of the criticisms put forward from non-believers and frequently condescending. This is due to their personality and/or frustration at having to frequently argue a point to all new member of religious faith who now and again decide to enter the debate when it all arguments put forward previously are ignored. Quite often the arguments presented by non-believers are more rational and logical whereas there are few believers who could present arguments in that manner. And for the rare few their condescending replies are due to retaliation for having be preached to that if they don't become religious they will go to Hell which can be taken as a personal attack for lack of belief, behaviour or lifestyle.
 

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MoonlightSonata said:
If you really want, here are some more dubious claims made in the Bible that show just how backward it is in light of science
I have to ask you MS, did you even read through those? Honestly, if you have then you do not do your intellectual ability justice. Even someone who doesn't believe in the bible would be able to extrapolate what it is actually talking about in the majority of those verses.

Seriously, if you are going to post things that would claim to point out faults with every book of the bible, at least have the decency to read all of them that you are posting.
 
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MoonlightSonata

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BradCube said:
I have to ask you MS, did you even read through those? Honestly, if you have then you do not do your intellectual ability justice. Even someone who doesn't believe in the bible would be able to extrapolate what it is actually talking about in the majority of those verses.

Seriously, if you are going to post things that would claim to point out faults with every book of the bible, at least have the decency to read all of them that you are posting.
Please address my posts rather than insulting me.
 

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Ad hominem arguments only serve to discredit anything one says.

But I would like to say that it is important not to read individual verses in isolation, nor to read them externally of their genre. Ancient Hebrew ideas of history are not the same as the Greco-Roman traditions we have in the European tradition. Whereas we may be used to history being reported in terms of pure, unadorned facts, the Hebrews would use literary devices (such as "the stars in the heavens fought against him") to illustrate the significant aspects of the story being told. The example above would not refer to stars literally taking up arms, but rather to the idea that all of creation (and thus all that is of God) was rejecting his cause. This may not be obvious to us in the modern setting, just sitting on our beds reading, but to the Hebrews it was obvious what was meant.

Remember, we in the 21st century were not the intended audience of these texts, thus we should not accept as true the first interpretation that comes to mind simply based on the words of the page.
 

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Lexicographer said:
Remember, we in the 21st century were not the intended audience of these texts, thus we should not accept as true the first interpretation that comes to mind simply based on the words of the page.
To put it bluntly, what happens if every way you read and/or interpret it, it comes out as a crock of shit that fortifies their already held biases towards the subject?
 

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well, so if its not to be taken literally....maybe the whole....jesus thing was supposed to be a fictional lesson that just incorporated truth? you can't say "well, this stuff is just a literary device" if its questionable and then say "well, this is absolute fact" when you want it to be.
 

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What makes theists sure that their interpretation of the Bible is correct? This is something that I've never really understood.
 

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