Does God exist? (18 Viewers)

[gibbo153]

....so why don't you move to africa and spread the word?

you're not a very good Christian are you.

practice what you preach.

PS. you're still using a conclusion as a premise.

you obviously don't know much about christianity if you think it is about works.

 

[gibbo153]

I'll direct you to your fellow theist/christian -


So why must he be LOGICAL for you to believe in something?

That's weird, you don't apply logic to one thing, yet you apply logic to another to as what you see fit.

explain how what i said isn't logical

 

[tommykins]

you obviously don't know much about christianity if you think it is about works.

Then why is it 'logical' to punish those whom have lived a good life helping others but are atheist.

explain how what i said isn't logical

I never said it wasn't logical, I was just stating that you're using a 'logical' reasoning to believe in God, yet you disregard logic when other arguments are put forth against God (ie. who created God?)

 

[gibbo153]

Tommy, how is that someone this stupid goes to our school?
Why must your god be relational? This is a God of the entire universe, a supernatural being beyond the realms of our imagination who controls the vast expanses of time and space within an iron grip. What makes you special enough, you, a pathetic human, a mere blip upon the infinite expanse of the space-time continuum, that such a great and powerful god would devote his time and effort to your wellbeing and fate?
The answer: nothing.
Such a belief simply stems from the inner emotional needs of every human to be elevated upon an altar of uniqueness above his peers. The Abrahamic religions simply appeal to that base emotion of all humanity. Arrogance.

what an unfair generalisation, to judge someone's overall intelligence more or less on the basis of whether i believe the same as you.

but you have accidently stumbled upon grace. the truth is that there is not a single reason that a great and powerful god would care about me in the slightest. as god tells us in his word. we are his creation and he loves us an infinite amount

 

[gibbo153]

Then why is it 'logical' to punish those whom have lived a good life helping others but are atheist.


I never said it wasn't logical, I was just stating that you're using a 'logical' reasoning to believe in God, yet you disregard logic when other arguments are put forth against God (ie. who created God?)

i have posted before on the word 'good'.

the ONLY distinction in god's eyes is whether someone is sinfull, or sinless. everyone is sinful. it is not a matter of varying amounts of sin. we are all sinners. in god's eyes a serial killer and someone who cursed once, are on the same level.

also, some say that surely a good god would ignore our sin and let us into heaven anyway. but god is perfect, and cannot be with imperfection. he offers us forgiveness, but if we don't accept it, then god accepts our decision, but he accepts it for eternity. hell is not a fiery place with cruel and unusual punishments that god 'sends' people to. it is simply being without the presence of god.

logic, is again a bad word for this. logical belief is a belief that fits in with one's understanding of processes. again i stress that we are not the one's who simply 'understand' god. god shows himself to us in his way, we do not go from not knowing his existence to knowing his existence through logic

 

[Lukybear]

This is a God of the entire universe, a supernatural being beyond the realms of our imagination who controls the vast expanses of time and space within an iron grip. What makes you special enough, you, a pathetic human, a mere blip upon the infinite expanse of the space-time continuum, that such a great and powerful god would devote his time and effort to your wellbeing and fate?
The answer: nothing.

There is some truth to what you say moll. Indeed God is all powerfull, and we are merely insignificant beings upon this puny earth. The truth is, if i was God, i wouldnt bother with humans, but then again i am not, and neither are you.

We cannot use human behaviour to characterise God, because simply put, God is beyond human comprehension.

My answer, and the answer that i have always been taught in Church is that God bothered with us, because we are his creation. His benevolance, and love which is characterised in Grace is what lift His hand in sending salvation.

Such a belief simply stems from the inner emotional needs of every human to be elevated upon an altar of uniqueness above his peers. The Abrahamic religions simply appeal to that base emotion of all humanity. Arrogance.

This is quite contradictor against the belief in God no? Surely if our emotional need of being elevated above our peers is the cause of religion, (by no way am i denying this need) then why do people advocate religion? If every1 is a Christian then how are we special?

Perhaps arrogance is a part of humanity, but is surely isnt the basis of Christianity.

 

[Lukybear]

Then why is it 'logical' to punish those whom have lived a good life helping others but are atheist.

Very nice rebuttal gibbo

I never said it wasn't logical, I was just stating that you're using a 'logical' reasoning to believe in God, yet you disregard logic when other arguments are put forth against God (ie. who created God?)

Quite honestly, i dont see how God, our salvation is logical?

Christianity is based upon faith on God's grace. If we belive Jesus died upon a cross to redeem our sins then we are saved. If we take upon the prespective of humans, then this is completley irrational. Why should one die for another? Why must God love us even tho we continue to rebel against him? Who are we that God should die upon the cross for us?

We cant apply logic to God, its quite simple. + The definition of God; would be that he is the creator of the world no?

 

[nikolas]

you obviously don't know much about christianity if you think it is about works.

Way to go at ignoring him pointing out the flaw in your logic.

 

[nikolas]

what an unfair generalisation, to judge someone's overall intelligence more or less on the basis of whether i believe the same as you.

but you have accidently stumbled upon grace. the truth is that there is not a single reason that a great and powerful god would care about me in the slightest. as god tells us in his word. we are his creation and he loves us an infinite amount

No, he judges you by the points you put forward. There are intelligent Christians, you are not one of them.

 

[impervious182]

I was just stating that you're using a 'logical' reasoning to believe in God, yet you disregard logic when other arguments are put forth against God (ie. who created God?)

Firstly that's not an argument. Secondly it's certainly not 'logical'.

God was not created, rather he created time and space, so he transcends it.

How is it 'logical' to believe in the creation of the universe, yet not in the perennial nature of God? How could the universe be created from nothing? 'Logically' it can't be. It takes faith to believe this. Just as it takes faith to believe in God.

Neither can be disproved and neither are mutually exclusive beliefs.

 

[KillerIsMe]

he can still help those who are sick, we are all in rebellion of God and all have sinned, it is humans fault there is sickness, it doesnt mean he shouldnt help them. there are many Christian Doctors

So for all the children who are born into poverty in disease, it's their fault and they as indivuals have rebelled against god?
AIDS is ramped in Africa, do you believe the thousands and thousands of young, innocent children who are born with AIDS or contract diseases are in rebellion of God and have sinned?
Christianity is just one big ball of hypocrisy.

 

[nikolas]

logic, is again a bad word for this. logical belief is a belief that fits in with one's understanding of processes. again i stress that we are not the one's who simply 'understand' god. god shows himself to us in his way, we do not go from not knowing his existence to knowing his existence through logic

So instead we just jump to the conclusion that there is a God...amrite?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russels_teapot

Its retarded to just assume there is a God

 

[impervious182]

So for all the children who are born into poverty in disease, it's their fault and they as indivuals have rebelled against god?
AIDS is ramped in Africa, do you believe the thousands and thousands of young, innocent children who are born with AIDS or contract diseases are in rebellion of God and have sinned?
Christianity is just one big ball of hypocrisy.

For a person who does studies of religion, you make a few wrong assumptions about Christianity.

A teacher once explained it to me like this; we are in a time of transition, waiting until the Lord reappears to us again, as explained in Revelation. It is not the fault of God that people are in poverty and disease; but rather the fault of man, of evil. The Lord offers everyone, regardless of this evil, a chance of redemption and a chance to accept Him in our lives and enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Christianity is not an exclusionary religion. We should be trying to help those around us, be good Samaritans. We should love our fellow man. Christianity is not like the Hindu belief, in that people are born with ailments and illnesses because they did something in a previous life.

Rather they are born into a world of evil, on the brink of self-destruction. Born to a world though, with an offering of hope, of redemption and of love. This is the Christian belief.

 

[nikolas]

Firstly that's not an argument. Secondly it's certainly not 'logical'.

God was not created, rather he created time and space, so he transcends it.

How is it 'logical' to believe in the creation of the universe, yet not in the perennial nature of God? How could the universe be created from nothing? 'Logically' it can't be. It takes faith to believe this. Just as it takes faith to believe in God.

Neither can be disproved and neither are mutually exclusive beliefs.

Umm yes it is, he is saying Gibbo is picking and choosing.

The bolded bit is the causation argument. Must i really go through why this argument is lame?

Faith= Blind/willful ignorance, more often than not the former.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russels_teapot

 

[impervious182]

Umm yes it is, he is saying Gibbo is picking and choosing.

The bolded bit is the causation argument. Must i really go through why this argument is lame?

Faith= Blind/willful ignorance, more often than not the former.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russels_teapot

Russel's teapot is a bad comparison. The existence of such a teapot does not explain anything (i.e. provide any answers) and certainly there is nothing to support the existance of the teapot except one man's claim. However the existance of God is not just claimed by one, but millions upon millions and it did not arise from one source, but many, which constitutes the Bible. It arose from the writings of people spread throughout the world and who witnessed miracles first hand.

That's why the Russel's teapot argument is weak, at best and does nothing to undermine one's faith in Christianity.

And yes, you'll have to explain to me why it is illogical to believe that the universe was created from nothing is logical, yet to believe that there is a God, is not.

 

[nikolas]

For a person who does studies of religion, you make a few wrong assumptions about Christianity.

A teacher once explained it to me like this; we are in a time of transition, waiting until the Lord reappears to us again, as explained in Revelation. It is not the fault of God that people are in poverty and disease; but rather the fault of man, of evil. The Lord offers everyone, regardless of this evil, a chance of redemption and a chance to accept Him in our lives and enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Yeh does damn unborn fetuses/ people who have never heard of Christianity should all burn in hell.

Sorry but your god is an egotistical idiot if he believes that everyone needs to be forgiven for something Adam and Eve did.

 

[Graney]

It arose from the writings of people spread throughout the world and who witnessed miracles first hand.

No miracles have ever been verified. Which is as good as saying they didn't happen. Miracles do not exist, there is no proof or evidence for their existence.

That's why the Russel's teapot argument is weak, at best and does nothing to undermine one's faith in Christianity.

Why should I believe christianity over any other religion?

 

[impervious182]

Yeh does damn unborn fetuses/ people who have never heard of Christianity should all burn in hell.

Sorry but your god is an egotistical idiot if he believes that everyone needs to be forgiven for something Adam and Eve did.

I don't think that we pay for the sins of Adam and Eve, but our own sins. Personally, I find solace in the knowledge that God is just and forgiving of all; He judges us on our sins, not on whther we have or have not heard of Him.

And actually we don't pay for our sins. We can never reach perfection and so the Lord shows us His compassion, by offering His forgiveness to us.

(If you go to Church every now and again, you could get a grasp of Christianity and ask some of these questions yourself. They'd have better answers for you than me..)

 

[impervious182]

No miracles have ever been verified. Which is as good as saying they didn't happen. Miracles do not exist, there is no proof or evidence for their existence.

Verified by who? Scientists?

Even if there were no evidence, which there is. It is not a logical link to conclude, that because there is no evidence, something does not exist. It is neither disproven.

What's more the thousands of accounts of miracles is proof in itself. Certainly it's good enough when proving if a crime was committed in many trials.

Why should I believe christianity over any other religion?

Well how could I answer this? It's up to you whether or not you believe in it. The reason I do is because it is so open. Everyone has the chance to become a Christian, God loves everyone no matter who they are. And every one has the chance to be redeemed and enter Heaven.

Belief in Christianity requires faith. In my opinion, you have to find this answer yourself.

 

[nikolas]

Russel's teapot is a bad comparison. The existence of such a teapot does not explain anything (i.e. provide any answers) and certainly there is nothing to support the existance of the teapot except one man's claim. However the existance of God is not just claimed by one, but millions upon millions and it did not arise from one source, but many, which constitutes the Bible. It arose from the writings of people spread throughout the world and who witnessed miracles first hand.

That's why the Russel's teapot argument is weak, at best and does nothing to undermine one's faith in Christianity.

And yes, you'll have to explain to me why it is illogical to believe that the universe was created from nothing is logical, yet to believe that there is a God, is not.

God does not explain anything other than Godddiit.

But I'll ignore the hypocrisy in the rest of my rebuttal.

Sorry argumentum ad numerum and appeal to the authority of the bible does does not make Russels teapot argument weak. Please if you have many sources of evidence please share them, for none have provided me with any.

The causation arguement rebuttal




1. Contradiction

Well the 1st premise( that everything has a cause) is self-contradictory.

Ill ask what caused God.

You'll say god is the cause.

and you have just violated the 1st premise that everything is caused.

Assuming that my logic is somehow false in the above, that does not then....

2. Jumping to a conclusion of the 1st cause argument.

Assuming you have that the 1st cause argument is correct, then...err well so what? you jump to the conclusion that God is the 1st cause.

Edit the two that come to mind will provide more.