MedVision ad

Does God exist? (4 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


  • Total voters
    1,568

Bookie

Banned
Joined
Mar 1, 2005
Messages
3,714
Location
But the truth remains you're...
Gender
Male
HSC
2006
obviously god exists.

obviously everything is based on karma.

the bible removed reincarnation theories in the 5th century AD so that people would aim to be pure in this life, and not have to reincarnate to make up for their sins.

now argue with me as to why the steady state model is full of crap when compared to the big bang.

bAckGrOuNd RaDiAtIoN iS tHe KeY mAn!1!!1
 

davin

Active Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Messages
1,567
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
wait, was that in support of steady-state or in support of big bang?
 

Zayd

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
112
Gender
Male
HSC
2006
"My answer to God, if he asked me why I should be let into heaven, would be "I lived life enriching and appreciating all of your creations."

Sayin you appreciate his creations is one thing and appreciating through actions is another thing. Think of your self present in a room full of disabled people, some with no legs others with mental weaknesses. Certainly you would feel uncomfortable and sorry for these people. Now Islam teaches me to take note of these people who are not as fortunate as i am, and then thank God for not making me like that. Obviously he could have, but he didn't. So now i have to appreciate through actions that i truley thank him. Same applies to the disabled people, Islam teaches us that no matter what position you are in, wether it be financial, physical, or emotional, God could have made it worse. So appreciate him in whatever state you are in.

Therefore this life is basically a test. To past the test, you basically thank God through actions, that you really appreciate the way he has made you and the positions he has put you in. God differentiates the actions of appreciation, and it is through this he determines who deserves heaven and who doesn't.
 

Zayd

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
112
Gender
Male
HSC
2006
dilroy said:
Exactly, very true.



In my opinion living life as a Muslim is not fulfilling a real life, driving from the cradle to the grave and passing by everything life has to offer, especially being an Islamic woman. I have a Muslim friend and she has a Catholic boyfriend, she has to keep her relationship with him private from her family members because she says that her father will kill her if she is to tell him... That to me is extremely wrong and she is very depressed being a Muslim, she wants to do many things in life... own a business, visit many different countries, not having to act as a servant to her own family... it's quiet sad.

The religion is simply way too extreme... and what happens if you die and find out it's not what it's meant to be.
If life in the mind of a Muslim is to serve Allah, to fulfil the rights of entry into the 'Islamic Heaven' than of course you'd become a terrorist... well I would because the meaning of life according to Muslims is to serve Allah right? I watched the program '30 days' and I recall a Muslim leader saying that life is not meant to be about having fun, but serving Allah etc... So a shortcut or an excuse to end the suffering of a 'real life' is just to kill infidels... and myself of course.

What you see on the media, the Cronulla riots, the cartoon controversy... even an Islamic cleric has a $1,000,000 reward for whoever kills the Danish cartoonists... that is a disgrace, a leader encouraging his own kind to become animals?

Believe me it's not just the media. I live in Berala, Wesern Sydney and experience them from first hand. They are a very aggresive bunch...
Of course when I visited Dubai for a holiday, the Muslims there are very different... more like normal human beings actually, besides the fact they can have four wives... what I like about Islam :) .

Back to the topic...
You have to realise that there were possibly over three religions created way before God was made through Judaism, which then branched into Christianity and finally Islam.
If your suicidal, a junkie, an idiot, or someone that goes on a rooting spree with multiple partners... than I guess you'll need religion for the morals they provide.

Humans created God, it's that simple...
I stated in one of my posts, that you can't judge a car by its looks. You have made a number of assumptions in your post regecting Islam. This is only because you have seen through the media and probably Muslims you know of or hear about, that they are aggressive, shot-tempered, etc. You are judging Islam through muslims, not with what Islam actually teaches. To really understand what Islam is all about you need to go firstly to the Quran, then the hadith (biography of the life of the Prophet muhammad), then other Islam resources. You can't judge Islam just by seeing what Muslims are like. Definately many muslims are no the best of role models because of the lack of knowledge about Islam, and a lack of faith.

I have put down a number of examples that summarizes the Islamic teachings, laws, and pratices.

Islam prescribes method of eliminating robbery
All major religions teach that theft is an evil act. Islam teaches the same. So what is the difference between Islam and the other religions? The difference lies in the fact that Islam, besides teaching that robbing is evil, shows a practical way of creating a social structure in which people will not rob.

Islam prescribes Zakaat
Islam prescribes a system of Zakaat (obligatory annual charity). Islamic law prescribes that every person who has a saving that exceeds the nisaab level i.e. more than 85 grams of gold, should give 2.5% of that saving every lunar year in charity. If every rich person in the world gave Zakaat sincerely, poverty will be eradicated from this world. Not a single human being would die of hunger.

Chopping off the hands as punishment for robbery
Islam prescribes chopping off the hands of the convicted robber. The Glorious Qur’an says in Surah Maidah:
"As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands:a punishment by way
of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power, full of wisdom."
[ Al-Qur’an 5:38]
The non-Muslim may say, "Chopping off the hands in this 20th century. Islam is a barbaric and ruthless religion!"

Results achieved when Islamic Shariah Implemented
America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries in the world. Unfortunately it also has one of the highest rates of crime, theft, and robbery. Suppose the Islamic shariah is implemented in America i.e. every rich person gives Zakaat ( 2.5% of his savings in charity above 85 grams of gold every lunar year), and every convicted robber has his or her hands chopped off as a punishment. Will the rate of theft and robbery in America increase, remain same or decrease? Naturally it will decrease. Moreover the existence of such a stringent law would discourage many a potential robber.

I agree that the amount of theft that takes place in the world today is so tremendous that if you chop off the hands of all the thieves, there will be tens of thousands of people whose hands will be chopped off. The point here is that the moment you implement this law the rate of theft will decline immediately. The potential robber would give it a serious thought before jeopardizing his limbs. The mere thought of the punishment itself will discourage majority of the robbers. There will barely be a few who would rob. Hence only a few person’s hands would be chopped off but millions would live peacefully without fear of being robbed.

Islamic Shariah is therefore practical, and achieves results.


3. Example: Islam prohibits the molestation and rape of women. It enjoins hijaab and prescribes capital punishment for a convicted rapist.


Islam prescribes method of eliminating molestation and rape
All the major religions declare the molestation and rape of women as grave sins. Islam teaches the same. What then is the difference between Islam and the other religions? The difference lies in the fact that Islam does not merely preach respect for women, or abhor molestation and rape as serious crimes, but also gives clear guidance as to how society can eliminate such crimes.


Hijaab for men
Islam has a system of hijaab. The Glorious Qur’an first mentions hijaab for the men and then for the women. Hijaab for the men is mentioned in the following verse:
"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."
[Al-Qur’an 24:30]

The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

Hijaab for women
Hijaab for women is mentioned in the following verse:
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons...."

[Al-Qur’an 24:31]

The extent of hijaab for a woman is that her complete body should be covered. The only part that can be seen, are the face and the hands up to the wrists. If they wish to cover, they can even cover these parts of the body. However some Islamic scholars insist that even the face should be covered.

Hijaab prevents molestation
The reason why Allah has prescribed Hijaab for the women is given in the Qur’an in the folowing verse of Surah Al-Ahzab:
"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women,that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, most Merciful."



[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women this would prevent them from being molested.



Example of twin sisters
Suppose two sisters who are twins and who are equally beautiful, walk down a street. One of them is wearing the Islamic Hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered except for the face and the hands up to the wrists, and the other twin is wearing a mini skirt or shorts. Around the corner there is a hooligan who is waiting for an opportunity to tease a girl. Who will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the mini skirt or shorts? Dresses that expose more than they conceal, are an indirect temptation to the opposite sex for teasing, molestation and rape. The Qur’an rightly says that the hijaab prevents women from being molested.


Capital punishment for rapist
The Islamic shariah prescribes capital punishment for a convicted rapist. The non-Muslim may be horrified at such a stringent punishment in this age. Many accuse Islam of being ruthless and barbaric. I have asked a common question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose God-forbid, some one rapes your wife, your mother or your sister and you are made the judge. The rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said, "we would put him to death." Some went to the extent of saying, "we would torture him to death", If your wife or your mother is raped you want the rapist to be put to death. But if someone else’s wife or mother is raped, capital punishment is a barbaric law. Why the double standards?


U.S.A. has one of the highest rate of Rape
The United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. An F.B.I report in the year 1990 says that 1,02,555 cases of rape were reported. It further says that only 16% of the cases of rapes are reported. Thus, in order to know the actual number of rapes that took place in 1990, the reported figure should be multiplied by 6.25. We get a total of 6,40,968 rape cases that took place in the year 1990. If the total is divided by 365 the number of days in a year, we get an average of 1,756 rape incidents everyday.
Later another report said that an average of 1900 cases of rape are committed in U.S.A every day. According to National Crime Victimization Survey Bureau of Justice Statistics (U. S. Dept. of Justice) in 1996 alone 3,07,000 cases of rape were reported. Only 31% of the actual cases of rape were reported. Thus, 3,07,000 X 3.226 = 9,90,322 rapes took place in 1996. That is, an average of 2,713 cases of rape took place everyday in America in 1996. Every 32 seconds one rape is taking place in America. The FBI report of 1990 continues and says that out of the rape cases that were reported only 10% of the rapist were arrested, that is only 1.6% of the actual rapes committed. Out of those arrested, 50% were let free before the trial. This would mean that only 0.8% of the rapists faced a trial. In other words if a person commits 125 rapes the chances that he will get a punishment for rape is only once. Many would consider this a good gamble. And the report says that of those people who faced trial 50% received sentences of less than a year’s imprisonment though the American law says rape carries a seven year sentence of imprisonment. For a rapist, the judge is lenient to first time offenders. Imagine a person commits 125 rapes and the chances of being convicted is only once, and 50% of the time the judge will grant leniency and give a sentence of less than a year!

Results achieved when Islamic Shariah Implemented
Suppose the Islamic shariah is implemented in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic Hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrists. After this if any man commits rape, he gets capital punishment. The question is, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same or will it decrease? Naturally it will decrease. Islamic Shariah gets results.

Going back to your friend, she has every right to own a business, and visit many different countries. There is a verse in the Quran that states:
"there is no compulsion in religion"
If your friend feels Islam is a burden she doesn't have to practise it. However it shows to me that she lacks knowledge in her religion. If she fears her father of knowing about her relationship with non-muslim because he will kill her, that also to me indicates that her father lacks knwoledge in Islam.
 

Generator

Active Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
5,244
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Zayd, this may just be me, but your entire argument seems to be based upon the notion that if we actively avoid the core issues, accept ingrained injustices and force the individual to account for the actions of others, then 'results' will just fall from the sky.

Please, tell me, what is to be gained by denying that we humans are sexual beings? What is to be gained by avoiding the need to force/condition men to properly respect women, no matter their manner of dress? What is to be gained by applying blanket sentences such as that which requires that a robber must lose their hands?

If anyone is able to correct Zayd's argument from an Islamic point of view, please feel free to intervene.

edit: please keep in mind that rape is primarily a power crime and, as Captain Gh3y points out, that it's one that is generally carried out by someone that the victim actually knows as opposed to a generic stranger from the wider social realm.
 
Last edited:

Captain Gh3y

Rhinorhondothackasaurus
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
4,153
Location
falling from grace with god
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Hijaab for women
Hijaab for women is mentioned in the following verse:
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons...."
So basically cover up for everyone except those who are statistically most likely to rape you?

Around the corner there is a hooligan who is waiting for an opportunity to tease a girl. Who will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the mini skirt or shorts? Dresses that expose more than they conceal, are an indirect temptation to the opposite sex for teasing, molestation and rape. The Qur’an rightly says that the hijaab prevents women from being molested.
In this society he'd probably make fun of the one wearing Hijab.
 

Zayd

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
112
Gender
Male
HSC
2006
Generator said:
Zayd, this may just be me, but your entire argument seems to be based upon the notion that if we actively avoid the core issues, accept ingrained injustices and force the individual to account for the actions of others, then 'results' will just fall from the sky.

Please, tell me, what is to be gained by denying that we humans are sexual beings? What is to be gained by avoiding the need to force/condition men to properly respect women, no matter their manner of dress? What is to be gained by applying blanket sentences such as that which requires that a robber must lose their hands?

If anyone is able to correct Zayd's argument from an Islamic point of view, please feel free to intervene.
I have backed the very few laws of Islam that i have stated with evidence. Your post shows to me you haven't read my entire post properly. It clearly identifies the results (and gains) if each law was implemented.
 

Not-That-Bright

Andrew Quah
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
12,176
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
To really understand what Islam is all about you need to go firstly to the Quran, then the hadith (biography of the life of the Prophet muhammad), then other Islam resources. You can't judge Islam just by seeing what Muslims are like. Definately many muslims are no the best of role models because of the lack of knowledge about Islam, and a lack of faith.
The only way to judge islam is by what muslims are like because the religion its self is undefinable, it's impossible for us to say what 'pure' islam is.

Islam prescribes Zakaat
Islam prescribes a system of Zakaat (obligatory annual charity). Islamic law prescribes that every person who has a saving that exceeds the nisaab level i.e. more than 85 grams of gold, should give 2.5% of that saving every lunar year in charity. If every rich person in the world gave Zakaat sincerely, poverty will be eradicated from this world. Not a single human being would die of hunger.
Wouldn't this fall under the taxes which people pay every year, a large percentage of which goes into social welfare? this is far higher than 2.5%.

Chopping off the hands as punishment for robbery
Islam prescribes chopping off the hands of the convicted robber. The Glorious Qur’an says in Surah Maidah:
"As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands:a punishment by way
of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power, full of wisdom."
[ Al-Qur’an 5:38]
The non-Muslim may say, "Chopping off the hands in this 20th century. Islam is a barbaric and ruthless religion!"
What so whenever ANYONE robs anyone, chop of their hands? Doesn't it seem a greater crime to chop off someones hands than to steal something?

Results achieved when Islamic Shariah Implemented
It's impossible for you to even know what the Shariah really is - you're only going by the interpretations that your islamic scholars give you.

Will the rate of theft and robbery in America increase, remain same or decrease? Naturally it will decrease. Moreover the existence of such a stringent law would discourage many a potential robber.
Robberies may decrease, but the ammount of people that no longer have their hands will increase - which is worse?

I agree that the amount of theft that takes place in the world today is so tremendous that if you chop off the hands of all the thieves, there will be tens of thousands of people whose hands will be chopped off. The point here is that the moment you implement this law the rate of theft will decline immediately. The potential robber would give it a serious thought before jeopardizing his limbs.
Alot of robbers are people that are extremely desperate - so thinking about the consequences does not really come into it. Do you really think a person with a drug habbit is going to not steal to get his hit just because of the threat?

Hence only a few person’s hands would be chopped off but millions would live peacefully without fear of being robbed.
- If you can catch the robber
- I don't think that many people live in fear of being robbed... or at least it's not a terrible fear.

But are not the features of a woman still visible even in hijab?


Suppose two sisters who are twins and who are equally beautiful, walk down a street. One of them is wearing the Islamic Hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered except for the face and the hands up to the wrists, and the other twin is wearing a mini skirt or shorts. Around the corner there is a hooligan who is waiting for an opportunity to tease a girl. Who will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the mini skirt or shorts? Dresses that expose more than they conceal, are an indirect temptation to the opposite sex for teasing, molestation and rape. The Qur’an rightly says that the hijaab prevents women from being molested.
It depends to be perfectly honest with you. I imagine the girl in the hijab would be just as open to rape and torment as the other girl.

Islamic Shariah gets results.
lol that reminds me of a catch phrase for some product...
 

Lundy

Banned
Joined
Sep 2, 2003
Messages
2,512
Location
pepperland
Gender
Female
HSC
2003
I resent the implication that it is primarily the woman's fault that she is a target for sexual molestation. "If she hadn't been wearing a short skirt, the man wouldn't have had the urge to rape her!"
 

Generator

Active Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
5,244
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Zayd said:
I have backed the very few laws of Islam that i have stated with evidence. Your post shows to me you haven't read my entire post properly. It clearly identifies the results (and gains) if each law was implemented.
For, the record, I did read your entire post, and I stand by previous comment. If you are unable to accept that much of what you are spouting avoids the issues and that these 'results' are hardly what any rational person would consider to be the consequence of a reasonable and progressive solution, then I'm afraid that you're just going to have to deal with those who will continue to dismiss your solutions as being the anachronistic and superficial responses that they truly are.
 

HotShot

-_-
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
3,029
Location
afghan.....n
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Lundy said:
I resent the implication that it is primarily the woman's fault that she is a target for sexual molestation. "If she hadn't been wearing a short skirt, the man wouldn't have had the urge to rape her!"
yeah i agree with u on that one, i dont think hijaab does anything to prevent her from being raped.

i have hear of women when who were wearing hijab and were still raped. it shouldn't be her fault if she is raped.

on the other hand, i do think democratic laws regarding punishment are pretty lets say useless. They havent really reduced the number of thefts, murders etc.
 

Not-That-Bright

Andrew Quah
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Messages
12,176
Location
Sydney, Australia.
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
on the other hand, i do think democratic laws regarding punishment are pretty lets say useless. They havent really reduced the number of thefts, murders etc.
Neither have barbaric laws - but at least we have a cleaner conscience.
 

HotShot

-_-
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
3,029
Location
afghan.....n
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Not-That-Bright said:
Neither have barbaric laws - but at least we have a cleaner conscience.
i wouldnt call laws that punish ppl properly, rather let them live in free house for few years to be barbaric.

Although i do agree, some laws seem unreasonable, but its not about fear. As in the purpose of these laws is not to create fear, rather its to get rid of the person altogether from the society. this enable the society to be safer, because it doesnt allow the same person to committ another crime.

consider this, most of the criminals have comitted multiple crimes. They havent just done one, they have committed a fair few. A person robs a petrol store, he gets caught, he realeased after some time. He goes and murders somones, and then gets in jail and then return and rapes aa women,
ask you yourself, is your conscience clear now? you have had the oppurtinity to prevent a murder and a women's life.
 

HotShot

-_-
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
3,029
Location
afghan.....n
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Not-That-Bright said:
Have you ever been to prison?
yes, have you? its nice, i have bed, a tv and free food daily.


Dude in Prison:"When i come out, i plan to murder someone else"
prisonmate: "why?"
Dude: "Oh, I dont know, guess cos i will miss u"
Prisonmate: "u serious u love me?"
Dude: "No u dickhead, outside i have to pay for everything, i wont be able to get job, life is tough outside, here in jail it rocks"
Prisonmate: "oh, u still love me dont u?"
Dude: "Sometimes...when u bend over"..
 
Last edited:

Xayma

Lacking creativity
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
5,953
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Lundy said:
I resent the implication that it is primarily the woman's fault that she is a target for sexual molestation. "If she hadn't been wearing a short skirt, the man wouldn't have had the urge to rape her!"
But if people didn't have stuff I wanted to steal I wouldn't have stolen. Now I get my hands cut off :( I'm sure if you threatened to cut off their penis, zayd, rapes would decrease as much as robberies would.
 

Enlightened_One

King of Bullshit
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
1,105
Location
around about here - still
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
HotShot said:
i wouldnt call laws that punish ppl properly, rather let them live in free house for few years to be barbaric.

Although i do agree, some laws seem unreasonable, but its not about fear. As in the purpose of these laws is not to create fear, rather its to get rid of the person altogether from the society. this enable the society to be safer, because it doesnt allow the same person to committ another crime.

consider this, most of the criminals have comitted multiple crimes. They havent just done one, they have committed a fair few. A person robs a petrol store, he gets caught, he realeased after some time. He goes and murders somones, and then gets in jail and then return and rapes aa women,
ask you yourself, is your conscience clear now? you have had the oppurtinity to prevent a murder and a women's life.

And what if you had the wrong man? What if you cut the hand off of, or killed, an innocent man?

If Sharia law is so great why isn't everyone, especially all muslims, immigrating to the middle east?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 4)

Top