Does God exist? (10 Viewers)

[sam04u]

Hmm... well I was about to make a lengthy argument about how some things which are in religion could not have come into existance prior to religion... but I decided to just delete it.

Is there a god?
Well, I can't prove there is yet... but I believe there is a God... much like you people... you can't prove there is no god.... yet you're adamant that god doesn't exist.

Imagine you lived on a desolate island... never seeing another human or another living creature. And you saw a can of coke.... and empty can...
What would you think about the can?
Let's say you live alone... and discovered science and astronomy... you were the only living creature to your existance... and you believed that the big bang occured... with no religion.

How would you explain the can?
Would you not believe it was designed?


I'll tell you one thing though... there are other life forms out there... I know this 100% because it sais so in the Qur'an.
The Qur'an explains things like "Big Bang"; I've provided quotes for this...

The Qur'an has never been editted, and there is valid explanation of the creation of the universe and of evolution. As of yet there are no contradictions in Islam to science.

A snippet of a verse from the Qur'an (to the best of my memory)

Do you not know that earth and space were one? And I ripped them apart and scattered life throughout them. And the universe grows constantly.

And the sun and the earth follow their parth as they follow their orbits... And the sun has a final phase (Super Nova)

And a day to god can be as 50,000 years to you.

So far the Qur'an agrees to my understanding of the universe... However, that does not mean that the other religions can be disregarded... they Qur'an is just an amendment to them... and (Jews, Christians & Buddhists are also from the same God).

I would explain the creation of the universe.. with diagrams.. and let you judge whether or not god was involved... I just want to publish my thoughts before I post them on the internet.

I just dont want some idiot to take credit for my years of thinking....

:mad1:
You know what I mean?

 

[davin]

Well, I can't prove there is yet... but I believe there is a God... much like you people... you can't prove there is no god.... yet you're adamant that god doesn't exist.

you also can't prove that i don't have the ability to fly. you can't prove that one time, when i drop a rock, it'll go up instead of down. you can't disprove something, just give a theory that works better and is more probable.
second, i'm not adamant, nor have been some of the other people, that there isn't a god. personally, my view is that there is no significant evidence that could only be attributed to a god that is therefore convincing enough that i should believe in one.

we've already discussed the issues with innaccuracies in Islamic science, as well as the shortcomings of the method.

And the sun and the earth follow their parth as they follow their orbits... And the sun has a final phase (Super Nova)

of course, the final phase of the sun isn't a super nova, but i'm assuming that the parentheses were your addition, not the quran's, so i think this just shows that you're trying to explain something you know nothing about as opposed to a flaw with the qur'an itself.

And a day to god can be as 50,000 years to you.

and the question has already been raised on this, because there was a second quote that gave 100,000 years as one day for god

 

[sam04u]

You are adamant on your beliefs....
You claim that there is no evidence of a creator? then how do you explain the universe?

There is more inconsistancies and in your beliefs then mine. You're quick to point out inconsistancies in the Qur'an which you believe to exist... (even though it explains "as")
The likes of Einstein, Sidis and many others believe in religion... yet you can't?
Being an atheist doesn't make you part of a higher calling... Atheists aren't doing anything positive for the universe... they live contradictorily to themselves.


I've never seen wind... therefore i can disprove it... right?

You've never seen the big-bang have you? so we can disprove that too...

Also im sure you've never done a topography of the universe and noted the doppler shifts... have you? so we can disprove that..?

All your beliefs on science were observed by someone else.. and changed for consistancy... the Qur'an was written once.. 1500 years ago and explains such phenomena... quite avidly...


Even so.. you can't explain why there is life on earth... Islam does... (If god, spread life throughout the heavens and the earth) it is explanatory....
There are limited mutagens on earth... so even large "meteor" storms couldn't have created enough radiation to trigger the advanced life forms we have for a relatively young solar system... with little UV radiation....

There is many more inconsitancies in your theory.. im not saying it is completely innacurate... the Qur'an confirms and encourages such research.

But you can not fully abandon the Religious ways which our forefathers experienced and documented.. for thousands of years.. because one theory seems more appealling to you....


Its not fair to our ancestors... who were likely more intelligent.. (because of less crossbreeding).

Untill you have binding proof then religion can be treated more lightly... even still it shoudl be regarded as a powerful tool of morals (since to this day; there have not been the ammount of assertion of morals since religion... eg; the 10 commandments....) Prior to them we were animals... who savagely raped etc.

Religion is powerful....
Don't think you're intelligent for going against it... it just proves how idiotic you are....

(Except Davin, he's smarter then UIC and Generator and Katie put together...)

 

[Generator]

Sam, why is it that you must always fall back on the notion that you alone are enlightened and that everyone who disagrees with your point of view must be an 'imbecile'? Do you really think that this is going to help your argument? Why should anyone take you seriously when you ignore a number of counter-claims to this argument and dismiss others as being non-entities?

By the way, many of the forum's 'atheists' are actually agnostic.

 

[HotShot]

Its not fair to our ancestors... who were likely more intelligent.. (because of less crossbreeding).

(Except Davin, he's smarter then UIC and Generator and Katie put together...)

um i thought they would have been more crossbreeding in the past, and how does that effect your intelligence?

i dont think intelligence is built on genetics.

 

[davin]

again, i'm agnostic. i don't believe that there is no chance whatsoever of a god, i just have no evidence that there is. heck, i have VERY little problem with deistic thought, which is the idea that there is a god who started the universe and then hasn't intervened since then. i just don't feel anything spiritually that would lead me to that.

as for doppler shifts, i have in fact calculated that for stars. i've not of yet actually done the calculation for the numbers to show shifts in galaxies, which is the relevant part, but i have looked through a lot of the pictures that show the shift based on the wavelengths of the pictures.

and if you want to simply disregard things because its not fully firsthand and that alone.... that obviously rules out the qur'an because you can't verify that that is the message from god. i can at least verify scientific fact if i so chose. i can't call up god and make sure he said something that muhammad claimed he did.

Prior to them we were animals... who savagely raped etc.

there's still rape, and religous people still do wrong. it doesn't magically fix everything. some of the morals are good, but they can come from sources other than religion

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Hmm... well I was about to make a lengthy argument about how some things which are in religion could not have come into existance prior to religion... but I decided to just delete it.

I'm sure it was awesome.

Well, I can't prove there is yet... but I believe there is a God... much like you people... you can't prove there is no god.... yet you're adamant that god doesn't exist.

Have you just ignored us totally? We all admit that ultimately there is no way of knowing whether or not a God exists... However, why some of us are leaning towards not believing in a God is because it fits in with why we don't believe in alot of things (santa claus, the tooth fairy, bigfoot, etc)... there is no credible evidence of their existance, now of coure there's no way for us to 'disprove' the existance of these imaginary creatures either "Oh they have magic powers" or whatever....

Imagine you lived on a desolate island... never seeing another human or another living creature. And you saw a can of coke.... and empty can...
What would you think about the can?

I'd think a creature like myself made it, because I am a creature that creates things and the world/islands are things.

Let's say you live alone... and discovered science and astronomy... you were the only living creature to your existance... and you believed that the big bang occured... with no religion.

Well if I discovered 'science' I would think the can must have been made by another person somewhere and come to me. This is really some amazing stuff you're posting mate.

I'll tell you one thing though... there are other life forms out there... I know this 100% because it sais so in the Qur'an.

ORLY?

The Qur'an explains things like "Big Bang"; I've provided quotes for this...

You know what, you're still yet to provide me with ONE example of someone using the koran to formulate a hypothesis that ended up being accurate. So you already know what I think of your quotes.

The Qur'an has never been editted, and there is valid explanation of the creation of the universe and of evolution. As of yet there are no contradictions in Islam to science.

Of course it's a valid explanation. Me saying that a magical beaver created the universe is a valid explanation - however of course, there appears to be better more naturalistic ones... that actually have evidence... comming into our knowledge.

Do you not know that earth and space were one? And I ripped them apart and scattered life throughout them. And the universe grows constantly.

And the sun and the earth follow their parth as they follow their orbits... And the sun has a final phase (Super Nova)

And a day to god can be as 50,000 years to you.

Erm yea it doesn't actually say it like that, it says a whole bunch of stuff which we explained is a common pagan belief, but you just ignored it, so I started explaining how it's silly to believe that the book has any predictive power when all its predictions are made after the fact - you (or at least i think it was you) said you knew of someone using the koran to prove a hypothesis - you never posted anything about this again.

I would explain the creation of the universe.. with diagrams.. and let you judge whether or not god was involved... I just want to publish my thoughts before I post them on the internet.

I just dont want some idiot to take credit for my years of thinking....


You know what I mean?

You remind me of the 1000's of people whom claim to have made those ummm energy machines? what are they called.... mind blank. Anyway, you do.

You are adamant on your beliefs....
You claim that there is no evidence of a creator? then how do you explain the universe?

Err many ways, and when I don't know something I say 'Hey! We don't know that yet'.

There is more inconsistancies and in your beliefs then mine. You're quick to point out inconsistancies in the Qur'an which you believe to exist... (even though it explains "as")

What do you mean inconsistancies with my belief? I don't get it, do you mean in ALL of science or just a belief in science? Also - inconsistancies are actually pretty good, it's good for people to keep on arguing things out because chances are (imo) that the more you argue something out logically, the closer to the 'truth' you come.

The likes of Einstein, Sidis and many others believe in religion... yet you can't?

Einstein was at best a diest. Anyway, there are alot of smart scientists over the past that believed in God. However, these days... ehhhh not so much. It was a cultural thing.

Being an atheist doesn't make you part of a higher calling... Atheists aren't doing anything positive for the universe... they live contradictorily to themselves.

Who cares? I don't think atheism is about a 'higher calling' or anything like that, it's about the truth! Even if atheism is some terrible shitty thing that sucks tonnes, that is not a way to dismiss it as wrong. Atheism is not a religion trying to 'buy' followers by telling them how awesome everything is if you believe in it.

I've never seen wind... therefore i can disprove it... right?

Ugh... we can measure the effects of wind, just as we can with gravity, what about 'God' can we measure?

You've never seen the big-bang have you? so we can disprove that too...

No but there's a whole bunch of current evidence pointing towards it? These are really silly arguments man.

All your beliefs on science were observed by someone else.. and changed for consistancy...

Ok, well if I want to I know I can do an investigation and be provided with all the relevant information openly to explain why they believe what they do. Also, there's no need to imagine that they're wrong since you have separate independant lines of inquiry all pointing towards the same answer. Now of course, they could be ultimately totally off the mark... but that's not what science works with, science does change, science does correct its self when it finds out something new... now you say 'and changed for consistancy' acting although it's some big conspiracy - It's not. It's scientists of all sorts of different backgrounds, working in all sorts of different fields, comming up with new ideas and putting them out there to be tested.

Even so.. you can't explain why there is life on earth... Islam does... (If god, spread life throughout the heavens and the earth) it is explanatory....

We actually can explain fairly well 'why' (as in how it came to being here) there is life on earth, with evidence to back us up. Islam provides an answer too, I'm just saying that it's a silly answer based on the use of a supernatural entity. Is this what you want scientists to do? to just... whenever there's something they wish to discover, to say 'LOL GOD DID IT!' or maybe each come up with their own fanciful supernatural story and have debates over it?

There are limited mutagens on earth... so even large "meteor" storms couldn't have created enough radiation to trigger the advanced life forms we have for a relatively young solar system... with little UV radiation....

No? I'm aware... there are gaps in our understanding of evolution, and some problems about the amount of mutagens.. so? Are you saying you don't believe in evolution now?

There is many more inconsitancies in your theory.. im not saying it is completely innacurate... the Qur'an confirms and encourages such research.

Because it's impossible for anything to be inconsistant with your theory. Please tell me one thing that you can't explain away with some supernatural force.

But you can not fully abandon the Religious ways which our forefathers experienced and documented.. for thousands of years.. because one theory seems more appealling to you....

Actually, we can. Our forefathers didn't have access to everything we do.

Its not fair to our ancestors... who were likely more intelligent.. (because of less crossbreeding).

-_-

Untill you have binding proof then religion can be treated more lightly...

Impossible, just as you can never have binding proof that santa claus does not exist.

even still it shoudl be regarded as a powerful tool of morals (since to this day; there have not been the ammount of assertion of morals since religion... eg; the 10 commandments....)

I've explained to you already that morals (it would seem) created the religion, not the other way around.

Prior to them we were animals... who savagely raped etc.

Yes, and now new injustices have been made by religion. You cannot have laws set in stone... it's a ridiculous idea.

Religion is powerful....
Don't think you're intelligent for going against it... it just proves how idiotic you are....

k.

edit:

Sam? How do you know the koran wasn't written by the devil?

 

[HotShot]

one thing though - you dont need religion for god to exist. like religion doesnt prove that god exists nor does science.

but you can prove to some extent aspects of religion are false. but this does not mean it carries over and proves that god does or doesnt exist.

just wanted to point it out.

 

[davin]

one thing though - you dont need religion for god to exist. like religion doesnt prove that god exists nor does science.

but you can prove to some extent aspects of religion are false. but this does not mean it carries over and proves that god does or doesnt exist.

just wanted to point it out.

well true, but i'd think part of the agnostic view is that we don't know, whereas most religions say "yes, we do know"....so the two positions are "yes, there's a god" or "we don't know about that"

You remind me of the 1000's of people whom claim to have made those ummm energy machines? what are they called.... mind blank. Anyway, you do.

either perpetual motion, or plausibly cold fusion?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

lol perpetual motion, that's the one. They go around talking about how they've invented a perpetual motion device, but don't want to show anyone because someone will steal it, or the government is after them, or you won't understand it... I just think Sam's doing the same sort of thing.

 

[SashatheMan]

reading back on sams posts and everyone elses counter arguments. I can safely say, you drove him and his simple way of thinking, into a corner. All i read from him , is ravings of a madman.

 

[F.R.O.G]

I'm back!

Reitterating on what my last post said, WHY ON EARTH CAN"T I TAKE THE BIBLE AS FACT? It is! Yes man has interpreted it different over the centuries, but every bible isn't interpreted from the bible previous to that one's existance (ie: NIV isn't interpreted from NKJ) it is interpreted from the ancient documents which were the origins of the bible! (Apologies for my statement that time was different...i had about 1/2 hour sleep)

Also what someone said before most christians today were complete ATHIEST before they found God. They are right! He changes your life in such a dramatic way, its unbelievable (Like me) Many well known Rock stars who lived for drugs and alcohol have become christian.
(Alice Cooper is one n here's proof....FROM ENOUGH ROPE WITH ANDREW DENTON
"...and I'm Christian now. It was a... people say, "There are no miracles," and I go, "Oh, yes there are." I'm a walking miracle because I was the worst alcoholic you could imagine, and 24 years I haven't had, not a drop." If you don't believe he said it go to http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1396692.htm)
The bolded "now" shows that he wasn't before... Just because your parents are pastors of churches doesn't mean you are a christian, you know of God. Many people today are living in that mentality that because they know the bible and know of god that they will automatically go to heaven. WRONG! sorry but a persons default location after death is hell (barring exceptions which only God can decide)

God is real... People/ Man does not have the creative capacity to imagine or feel things that aren't real! We could not create such perfection...

I have another question for you... Do you believe in the wind? You can't see it, but you can certainly feel it! If you can believe in the wind, why can't you believe in God? You CAN feel him when you're alone at night and really upset because of something that happened that day he gives you a hug and lets you know that he's there even if none else is! You may not believe me but again... DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE WIND?

 

[sam04u]

Sasha; leave this conversation to people with IQ's over 50... and go back to watching South Park and Drawing Anti-Islamic pictures... you imbecile....

I agree, that some of you have expressed some pretty straight forward comments but none of the questions have been effectively answered...

I'm not forcing you to believe god... I'm not forcing you to become christian or muslim.

Or even to accept my god...

I'm just showing you the ignorance which some of you are showing... and for no good reason... you can still believe god and research the meta-physical and astronomy.

But, by following religion you lose nothing...
You become more moral... more acceptable... more peaceful... and have ensured security....

Do you not agree?
Im religious yet I question the universe... and sometimes even the qur'ans explanations (mainly trying to prove it rather then disprove);

And I have come into contact with some feasable explanations...

So, there is no reason to be anti-religion... because even most of you agree to the morals of religion... like anti-hate, anti-murder, anti-rape, anti-theft... etc etc...

Believing god is a security things.... call it a security blanket... but there is more to gain then lose... unless ofcourse you absolutely can't believe... (Even still... according to Islam all good people will go to heaven... so as long as you're a good person... you will go to heaven....)

Back on topic... "Does God exist?"
The answer; Yes... to me it does.

PS:
I'm not saying if you don't believe in "God", you'll be immoral or go to hell... but if you just follow some of the behaviours avidly.. you're just as well off!

Eg; Is it not beneficial to dress conservatively? As is asked in the Qur'an?

It is! As your partner will not be interested in you just because of your physical appearance!

Is it not beneficial to be fidel with your partner?

It is! you and your partner will form trust and loyalty; cheating could lead to a break-up and an unsuccesful life as a result of this.

Is it not beneficial to refrain from things whcih harm your body? eg; drugs & alcohol

It is! (common sense)

Is it not beneficial to not steal/rape/attack/murder??

To conclude:

Be a good person; and I truly don't mind if you believe in god. Because according to islam' in the final hours of the final day. All those who are "pure of heart" will find islam and go to heaven!
The dead will rise and all but the good will be confused. The good will find islam!

are you pure of heart?

 

[FuckLiberals]

I'm back!

Reitterating on what my last post said, WHY ON EARTH CAN"T I TAKE THE BIBLE AS FACT? It is! Yes man has interpreted it different over the centuries, but every bible isn't interpreted from the bible previous to that one's existance (ie: NIV isn't interpreted from NKJ) it is interpreted from the ancient documents which were the origins of the bible! (Apologies for my statement that time was different...i had about 1/2 hour sleep)

Why can't we take The Simarillion as fact?

Also what someone said before most christians today were complete ATHIEST before they found God. They are right! He changes your life in such a dramatic way, its unbelievable (Like me) Many well known Rock stars who lived for drugs and alcohol have become christian.

Everyone is born an atheist. What is your point?

(Alice Cooper is one n here's proof....FROM ENOUGH ROPE WITH ANDREW DENTON
"...and I'm Christian now. It was a... people say, "There are no miracles," and I go, "Oh, yes there are." I'm a walking miracle because I was the worst alcoholic you could imagine, and 24 years I haven't had, not a drop." If you don't believe he said it go to http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1396692.htm)

...?

The bolded "now" shows that he wasn't before... Just because your parents are pastors of churches doesn't mean you are a christian, you know of God. Many people today are living in that mentality that because they know the bible and know of god that they will automatically go to heaven. WRONG! sorry but a persons default location after death is hell (barring exceptions which only God can decide)

You're assuming god exists.

God is real... People/ Man does not have the creative capacity to imagine or feel things that aren't real! We could not create such perfection...

You're assuming god exists.

I have another question for you... Do you believe in the wind? You can't see it, but you can certainly feel it! If you can believe in the wind, why can't you believe in God? You CAN feel him when you're alone at night and really upset because of something that happened that day he gives you a hug and lets you know that he's there even if none else is! You may not believe me but again... DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE WIND?

Why would I believe in the wind? What are you talking about?

Again you're assuming god exists.

 

[FuckLiberals]

Sasha; leave this conversation to people with IQ's over 50... and go back to watching South Park and Drawing Anti-Islamic pictures... you imbecile....

Ad hominem.

But, by following religion you lose nothing...
You become more moral... more acceptable... more peaceful... and have ensured security....

Evidence to support this claim?

Do you not agree?

No.

So, there is no reason to be anti-religion... because even most of you agree to the morals of religion... like anti-hate, anti-murder, anti-rape, anti-theft... etc etc...

No, religion agrees to the morals accepted in the day that it was written. That's why so many are outdated and useless.

Believing god is a security things.... call it a security blanket... but there is more to gain then lose... unless ofcourse you absolutely can't believe... (Even still... according to Islam all good people will go to heaven... so as long as you're a good person... you will go to heaven....)

You're assuming both heaven and god exist.

Back on topic... "Does God exist?"
The answer; Yes... to me it does.

What does this prove? You are still wrong.

are you pure of heart?

Definition?

And I'll leave you with this quote:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts

 

[SashatheMan]

I have another question for you... Do you believe in the wind? You can't see it, but you can certainly feel it! If you can believe in the wind, why can't you believe in God? You CAN feel him when you're alone at night and really upset because of something that happened that day he gives you a hug and lets you know that he's there even if none else is! You may not believe me but again... DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE WIND?

does he actually physicly hug you when yuor upset? I would like to believe that, i would really do.

Wind can be described in detail, can be measured, indirectly seen ( small debris) etc etc.

if you are trying to compare the evidence of wind and god, then its a really bad example. Since god has no evidence

 

[SashatheMan]

.

 

[jujujellybean]

I'm not forcing you to believe god... I'm not forcing you to become christian or muslim.

Or even to accept my god...

I'm just showing you the ignorance which some of you are showing... and for no good reason... you can still believe god and research the meta-physical and astronomy.

I agree that when discussing religion, a person must take into account other people's perspectives. I agree that a person should not force their own beliefs on others, but at the same time they must respect other's opinions and beliefs.
If a person is ignorant, it is like saying "my beliefs are right and yours aren't" those people come across as "up themselves" and gain little respect from other people.
Religion is a topic which everyone has their own beliefs and opinions - just look at the enormous response to this thread.
RESPECT is all it takes to gain an understanding of what other people believe. It is a religious discussion, not a conflict.

 

[FuckLiberals]

I agree that when discussing religion, a person must take into account other people's perspectives. I agree that a person should not force their own beliefs on others, but at the same time they must respect other's opinions and beliefs.
If a person is ignorant, it is like saying "my beliefs are right and yours aren't" those people come across as "up themselves" and gain little respect from other people.
Religion is a topic which everyone has their own beliefs and opinions - just look at the enormous response to this thread.
RESPECT is all it takes to gain an understanding of what other people believe. It is a religious discussion, not a conflict.

Would you respect someone who thought all blacks are evil scum?

 

[ur_inner_child]

jujujellybean,

sam04u feels that people without religion are illogical, idiotic and possess no morals. Regardless of whether he says he's not forcing us to believe in a particular religion, he is still implying that he is correct, and that it is better to be religious, otherwise you're intellectually inferior.

i hardly feel that's respect