Does God exist? (6 Viewers)

[HalcyonSky]

God exists and is good well as a christian that is what i believe

look up in the sky on a clear night and then tell me that a bang created all the beautiful and amazing things in the world. it is too good to be created by nothing.

You are irrefutable evidence that there is no intelligent design. And that females have smaller brains.

 

[boris]

if anyone wants to chat about christianity email me on emytaylor164@hotmail.com

Must resist urge to spam you with gay porn

 

[Iron]

Dude. I just don't understand the whole 'sacrificing his son for us'.

I just don't get it!

Our natural state since original sin is self-centredness, greed and hate. Submitting to Christ involves him entering you and killing this selfishness. But it isnt easy to get men to surrender their sovereignty. Therefore Christ, Son of God, became man so that we too could become Sons of God - Christians. His life was to demonstrate to us what all men are intended to be.

Christ's desires were human and he had to constantly go through extraordinary human trials - temptation, poverty, misunderstanding, betrayal, injustice, torture and execution.
After being killed - killed everyday in a sense - he was reunited with God and came to life again. The MAN rose again, not just the God. The resurrected Christ was the first real man. He embodied the hope of all men for redemption. We saw what our evil had done and were ashamed. But through letting him into our hearts - by following His righteous path of love and compassion - as well as sacrifice and suffering - men CAN be reunited with the father.

That’s why He died mang.

 

[boris]

Yeah nah. It just doesn't compute.

But ok mang.

 

[youBROKEmyLIFE]

He didn't give up his son anyway, his son gave himself up... This whole split personality trinity thing makes it really confusing.

 

[surjulz]

wow this thread has grown in my absence

just quickly my comments about hedonism were directed at dawkins argument, not people on this board. no I don't think athiests are without values and ethics, but ultimately no person is perfect, which is where Jesus comes into it.

Boris you asked for any miracles so I told you this. In a sense it is the word of Bono, but I didn't wish to offer any personal stories since they are unverifiable for people who don't know me. But like I said before I can think of lots of other examples.

Broke I can see why you might be sceptical about this "miracle", but isn't being cured from heroin addiction is a big thing?

KFunk I agree that extreme poverty is a tragardy, and I am not a big fan of prosperity theology. But I think the church is moving on these issues, things like the ONE and Making Poverty History campaigns are receiving a lot of support from churches and Christians generally etc. Also as a lot of the injustice in the world is man made, poverty is not necesarily evidence that God is being "unfair" when he answers prayer.

Finally I don't think there is a greater act of love for God to give us, then to send his own Son to die in my place, and in our place, if it's true, this isn't something to be looked over lightly, but something that does demand a response from us.

 

[Slidey]

Be right back. Going to have a child then sacrifice him to make my friends feel better.

 

[Trampoline Man]

KFunk I agree that extreme poverty is a tragardy, and I am not a big fan of prosperity theology. But I think the church is moving on these issues, things like the ONE and Making Poverty History campaigns are receiving a lot of support from churches and Christians generally etc. Also as a lot of the injustice in the world is man made, poverty is not necesarily evidence that God is being "unfair" when he answers prayer.

You say you don't believe in just attributing the good in the world to God but you go ahead and do it anyway. If a lot of the injustice and poverty in the world is man made, then why do you think it is such a stretch to say a lot of the justice and prosperity in the world is also man made?

If you believe in miracles and other such wondrous things, and that Jesus did actually heal the sick, then does that mean you believe in alot of the rest of the old and new testaments?

If so, how do you reconcile the fact that the bible indicates the universe is at best about 12,000 years old, while scientific study has shown it to be many billions of years old? And how do you explain dinosaurs and all other life which existed millions of years before humanity?

What was the purpose of the existence of dinosaurs?

You see, the problem I have with Christianity and all other religion is that while they aim to explain the workings of our world and the universe, no religion has ever explained much beyond the borders of the regions they were created. How do you explain that?

 

[KFunk]

KFunk I agree that extreme poverty is a tragardy, and I am not a big fan of prosperity theology. But I think the church is moving on these issues, things like the ONE and Making Poverty History campaigns are receiving a lot of support from churches and Christians generally etc. Also as a lot of the injustice in the world is man made, poverty is not necesarily evidence that God is being "unfair" when he answers prayer.

Or rather, it just seems to show that god answers a lot more prayers in the developed world.

Also, because I can't help myself, I don't buy the whole "man makes evil" thing. I don't know that I have the time to launch fully into the free will argument right now (I did it to death with bradcube a while back) but basically I think 'free will' as it is commonly conceived is a load of bunk. Essentially I believe that if god exists and is the creator of the universe then they would have been able to determine the outcomes that would result from the initial conditions of the universe, planting the responsibility for everything on god's shoulders (i.e. because if human behavior is essentially predictable and god is omniscient then god will know what course of action a perosn will take in any given circumstance). Of course, free will is a dubious concept when it comes to god as well, but I don't expect to win that debate vs. a theist. If you can provide a coherent theory of free will and explain why it doesn't disintegrate into an inconsistent heap then please, do so. Otherwise I'm not sure I can take the argument which goes, roughly, "but free will must exist! I just know that I could have done otherwise... and without free will life/morality/love/whatever looses meaning".

 

[Yamaelf]

God created the world in 6 days...BS
I think it was man on the 6th day (correct me if im worng), but where does this leave dinosaurs, primordial soup, evoulution etc. Honestly use science. Fixes everything, and if it hasnt yet it will do one day.

"Science has no need to use god as a hypothesis"

Simple as that. Oh and the bible is basically a childrens book. And if it wasnt for jesus the world would by now be one nation and we would all be Romans. Everything would be better.

 

[Omium]

God created the world in 6 days...BS
I think it was man on the 6th day (correct me if im worng), but where does this leave dinosaurs, primordial soup, evoulution etc. Honestly use science. Fixes everything, and if it hasnt yet it will do one day.

"Science has no need to use god as a hypothesis"

Simple as that. Oh and the bible is basically a childrens book. And if it wasnt for jesus the world would by now be one nation and we would all be Romans. Everything would be better.

MAY GOD HELP US

 

[Slidey]

MAY GOD HELP US

Interesting theory. Tell me more.

 

[surjulz]

You say you don't believe in just attributing the good in the world to God but you go ahead and do it anyway. If a lot of the injustice and poverty in the world is man made, then why do you think it is such a stretch to say a lot of the justice and prosperity in the world is also man made?

If you believe in miracles and other such wondrous things, and that Jesus did actually heal the sick, then does that mean you believe in alot of the rest of the old and new testaments?

If so, how do you reconcile the fact that the bible indicates the universe is at best about 12,000 years old, while scientific study has shown it to be many billions of years old? And how do you explain dinosaurs and all other life which existed millions of years before humanity?

What was the purpose of the existence of dinosaurs?

You see, the problem I have with Christianity and all other religion is that while they aim to explain the workings of our world and the universe, no religion has ever explained much beyond the borders of the regions they were created. How do you explain that?

I don't think I said human beings are incapable of good, God did create man in His image and gave him responsibility to govern this world, so they are certainly capable of doing good things of their own means. However to go back to my earlier point, no human is perfect in the sight of God.

With the miracle thing, I know its not easy for people from our soceity to intially have an open mind when it comes to miracles etc, but the way I think about it is to ask "Is everything in the universe perceivable to our physical senses". There's no arbitary reason to think that the answer to that is yes, therefore things like miracles can happen. Also with the previous comments about the injustice of God in answering the prayers of people who don't live in third world conditions, I don't see any reason to impose a Rawlsian limit (that is God must help the poorest person in soceity then the next most poor, and the next most poor), I think with regards to prayer God responds to faith.

KFunk on the other hand I gather the greatest number of mircales and answered prayer does occur in places where there are a lot of poor people, or where Christians are recieving serious persecution, and your assertion about more prayer being answered in the developed world is not neceserily correct.

I believe the bible is the word of God, however I'm not nesecarily a literalist when it comes to creation, the purpose of that account is to establish the starting positions of humans, and our relationship to God. Therefore dinosaurs are definietly not written out of the bible.

I also believe that the bible doesn't just deal with things localised to a particular time and culture, but with subjects which still are relevent today, and ones which people find relevent today, like does life have a purpose, or what happens to us when we die. It's not just a children's book, that is simply a generalisation.

 

[KFunk]

I would be dissapointed if god didn't at least loosely adhere to a Rawlsian difference principle. For example, a poor rural farmer might be gifted with plentiful crops for the year, while a wealthy investment banker might be gifted with a card from a raffle which allows them a year of discounts at leading supermarket chains. It doesn't take a lot of thought to work out who benefits more. Without food the farmer will likely become malnourished and, consequently, may become immunocompromised and acquire an infectious disease (with the possible consequence of death, for lack of treatment, etc...). For the farmer it is a life and death situation - it is about surviving. For the investment banker it is about luxury and an easier/cheaper manner of living. I am not saying that it makes no sense for the wealthy to prosper further, but I would expect a god to have at least some concept of diminishing marginal utility. I feel that the state of the developing world reveals that either a) god does not perform miracles or b) god possesses dubious moral character (that is, if they exist).

KFunk on the other hand I gather the greatest number of mircales and answered prayer does occur in places where there are a lot of poor people, or where Christians are recieving massive amounts of persecution, and your assertion about more prayer being answered in the developed world is not neceserily correct.

I would contend that the data on poverty, malnutrition and infectious diseases suggests otherwise.

Example WHO publications like:

"During 1990–2000 global stunting and underweight prevalences declined from 34% to 27% and 27% to 22%, respectively. Large declines were achieved in Eastern and South-eastern Asia, while South-central Asia continued to suffer very high levels of malnutrition. Substantial improvements were also made in Latin America and the Caribbean, whereas in Africa numbers of stunted and underweight children increased from 40 to 45, and 25 to 31 million, respectively."

Consider also Tuberculosis:

"In 2005, estimated per capita TB incidence was stable or falling in all six WHO regions. However, the slow decline in incidence rates per capita is offset by population growth. Consequently, the number of new cases arising each year is still increasing globally and in the WHO regions of Africa, the Eastern Mediterranean and South-East Asia."

 

[oswald]

what about the question of existence? Why am I here, what am I doing and where the hell is this place we've come to call the universe.

Did the big bang think up the idea of time and space?

Does evolution mind if I go and kill myself?

Did the big bang plan on me sitting here at a computer wondering about the origin of the world?

If there is no god, then there is no meaning, there is no right or wrong...

I dont think there is a god, I do think there is a creator, this place is perfectly absurd, and ultimately beyond our comprehension.

But wait, I can see the evil in the world....

even so, its all in your head, and your head only.

 

[Trampoline Man]

what about the question of existence? Why am I here, what am I doing and where the hell is this place we've come to call the universe.

Did the big bang think up the idea of time and space?

Does evolution mind if I go and kill myself?

Did the big bang plan on me sitting here at a computer wondering about the origin of the world?

If there is no god, then there is no meaning, there is no right or wrong...

I dont think there is a god, I do think there is a creator, this place is perfectly absurd, and ultimately beyond our comprehension.

But wait, I can see the evil in the world....

even so, its all in your head, and your head only.

You say our universe is too far beyond our understanding to not have a creator, but wouldn't the creator itself have to be much more complex and beyond our comprehension that his own creation? If so, then someone must have created the creator, given it's even greater complexity.

The rest of your post, I'm afraid to say, is just as incomprehensible as the universe.

 

[surjulz]

I think God is on the side of the poor though, there are a lot of verses in the bible about it. But the bible makes clear that God did hold the wealthy to account to the way they treated the poor in the old testement. I suppose on a conceptual level the reason strict rawlsianism isn't necesary is that God answering one persons prayers would detract from his ability to amswer other prayers if I can put it that way...

I wouldn't take a marco view of poverty as firm evidence against what I wrote earlier with regard to the figures stated yes they are large numbers, but by getting the food, drugs and aid into those countries, we can lift a lot of people out of poverty. And compared to 10-11 years ago the general attitude of the powerbrokers with regards aid is changing, for all of its contraversies the bush administration has increased aid 4 fold during its time. Although more needs to be done still...

I think Chrstianity helps with the way I see issues like this, I love the idea of forgiveness, begining again, that God gives us a new start because of what Jesus did. We can easily apply that sort of thing to something like this, whilst we cannot change the mistakes made in the past, we can draw an line through the past and press on to try to deal with an issue at hand, and that we can make a difference in an issue like this.

 

[oswald]

but thats just the thing, who says theres any such thing as time outside of this world. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. Who says there was any begining or end for that creator? maybe he is just as the bible says, "I AM"

 

[Trampoline Man]

but thats just the thing, who says theres any such thing as time outside of this world. THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. Who says there was any begining or end for that creator? maybe he is just as the bible says, "I AM"

Your own argument means the creator MUST have a beginning and an end.

You say the complexity of the universe means there must be a creator.

But any being capable of creating the universe must be many times more complex than its creation.

So the creator must have its own creator.

 

[BradCube]

Wow, the thread has escaped me once again it seems!

Interesting read through the latest posts. I can't help but be a little disappointed that we seem to back where we started. Have we made no progress in our discussions? It also surprises me the amount of assumptions and ignorance that seems to coming from both parties at the moment! So emotionally charged.

I'll try and write a response out tomorrow on the latest debates which have come up - but for now, it's bed time. It's good to see that everyone is still alive and kicking though!