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Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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sam04u

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zimmerman8k said:
so the fact that you have free will and occasionally feel like doing something nice for people is evidence of a god?
Nope.

theres still reasons for those actions...
Yes, but what I'm suggesting is our actions in such situations are neither based on reason or impulse. It's not a reaction to the factors and neither is it a decision reached after consideration. I think personally those examples are the best examples of free will.

Ultimately that was the question. Do we have free will? I believe we do.
 

Slidey

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sam04u said:
Nope.


Yes, but what I'm suggesting is our actions in such situations are neither based on reason or impulse. It's not a reaction to the factors and neither is it a decision reached after consideration. I think personally those examples are the best examples of free will.

Ultimately that was the question. Do we have free will? I believe we do.
While I think you're giving evidence more for the high degree of neural complexity in the human brain, I generally agree that for all intents and purposes, we have free will.

But it wouldn't surprise me to see somebody mount a counter-argument based on chaos/complexity not implying non-determinism. That is: just because something looks random doesn't mean it is, and indeed a being with sufficient knowledge about our universe (it's rules and states at any one time), such as 'god' could well be capable of determining exactly what our actions in the future will be.

It's just as possible such a being might not be capable of such prediction, though. As far as the science goes, we don't really know enough about the universe to figure it out either way (although quantum theory is certainly a big blow to determinism and in a way a potential win for free will).
 

TacoTerrorist

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we evolved to have pity on the helpless, its a biological urge which we cant control. not much of a free choice if we're influenced by our genes.
I don't think that we have just 'evolved' a sense of compassion. I believe that if you do something for somebody else without expecting a reward you are exercising free will, not being controlled by some gene.
 

Enteebee

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sam04u said:
Well I can speak for myself. I do.
Well I can speak for myself and say I don't care about your personal anecdote... All theists SAY they believe they're going to go to heaven when they die or whatever, but they just don't act like it imo.

Slidey said:
While I think you're giving evidence more for the high degree of neural complexity in the human brain, I generally agree that for all intents and purposes, we have free will.
I think we only have free-will in the sense that humans would feel they have free will (i.e. in our constructed concept of 'self'), but ultimately we most likely don't, there are only 2 aspects which make up our being (our genes and our environment) these determine exactly where we're going to be, if you know them then you know the person entirely and what will be their next decision. There is no 3rd dimension of a 'soul' or a 'free-will spirit' that gives us such a thing.

tacoterrorist said:
I don't think that we have just 'evolved' a sense of compassion. I believe that if you do something for somebody else without expecting a reward you are exercising free will, not being controlled by some gene.
Well you're wrong in the ultimate sense that... we actually have evolved a sense of compassion and that is exactly why it happens, but right in the more 'human' sense where we have constructed this idea of identity... Our identity is viewed as a mostly free agent, this allows us to impose on each other 'personal responsibility' which is of great practical importance.
 
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Slidey

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Enteebee said:
I think we only have free-will in the sense that humans would feel they have free will (i.e. in our constructed concept of 'self'), but ultimately we most likely don't, there are only 2 aspects which make up our being (our genes and our environment) these determine exactly where we're going to be, if you know them then you know the person entirely and what will be their next decision. There is no 3rd dimension of a 'soul' or a 'free-will spirit' that gives us such a thing.
Considering the brain appears to be a quantum neural net, I'm inclined to think there is a third factor involved: randomness.

As far as I care, non-determinism is the same as free will.
 

Enteebee

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Slidey said:
Considering the brain appears to be a quantum neural net, I'm inclined to think there is a third factor involved: randomness.

As far as I care, non-determinism is the same as free will.
Do you believe quantum variations are that large to make any significant difference at our level?
 

Kwayera

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TacoTerrorist said:
I don't think that we have just 'evolved' a sense of compassion. I believe that if you do something for somebody else without expecting a reward you are exercising free will, not being controlled by some gene.
Sorry, we did. And we're not the only primates that do it either ('it' being altruistic to non-relatives).
 

Kwayera

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For those who believe in Jesus:

A long, long time ago, a man was born in darkest winter, on (or possibly just near) the Solstice. This was a particularly special occasion because his mother had never slept with a man. Though no one could really explain it, it did not go unnoticed. Following a bright star in the east, three kings found the child and adorned him with gifts and praise.

He was an especially smart kid, and he started teaching people how to not be such total dicks to each other all the time when he was only 12 years old. There is no reliable surviving information regarding his life until he turned thirty, when he was baptized and began his ministry, traveling the land followed by twelve disciples before whom he performed many miracles, such as healing the sick and walking on water. He was sorely tempted by a being of incredible evil atop a high mountain rising out of the desert, but resisted this temptation.

Sadly, he was betrayed many years into his ministry, crucified for blasphemy, laid to rest in a tomb, and was three days later resurrected. He lives "in the heavens" to this day, blessing the good people of the earth with his presence if they know where to look for him.

Can anyone guess who I'm talking about?

That's it, you guessed it! Horus, the Egyptian god of the Sun, enemy of Set and bringer of light to this world. You weren't thinking of Horus? Well, it's to be expected, since his life story is so similar to that of Dionysus, also born of a virgin on Dec. 25th, who traveled the lands teaching and performing miracles such as turning water into wine. Known as “the Alpha and Omega,” the “King of Kings,” he was resurrected upon his death as well, so it's easy to see how people mix them up.

No? Again? I guess you must have been thinking of another one of the messianic solar figures. Attis, the Phyrgian god? Mithra, then, of Persia? Adonis, perhaps? What? You were seriously thinking of Jesus? He only showed up 2000 years ago. What a newb.

Hey Christo-Tards, your fairy tales aren't even original. The disciples were plagirists.
Not entirely factually correct, but Judaic religions have borrowed a LOT from previous religions.
 
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Zephyrio

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I believe in God.

That is my opinion, so yeah he does exist.

(Coming from someone raised in a Buddhist household)

I know that I'm going to get a lot of questions and shit about my belief, but my reasons are just too long, and before you know it, they'll be contentious lol. Remember, it's just my opinion.
 
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TacoTerrorist

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Sorry, we did. And we're not the only primates that do it either ('it' being altruistic to non-relatives).
Is this fact or some other non-sensical pro-animal crap?


I'm not a Christian but the author of that piece Kwayera posted is such a typical atheist.
 

Kwayera

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TacoTerrorist said:
Is this fact or some other non-sensical pro-animal crap?
I find it funny that you think "pro-animal" is an insult, given that you are an animal :p

Read this: http://www.newscientist.com/channel...quely-human-traits-now-found-in-animals-.html

And for interesting insight into non-Human culture: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/mg16922834.600-culture-shock.html

And this especially for non-Human morality: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/mg17523515.000-virtuous-nature.html

Altruism to non-relatives IS found in other animals, and is NOT unique to humans. Get off your Biblical (and wrong) "Humans are better than all other animals" misguided, egotistical crap.
 
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xeuyrawp

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Kwayera said:
For those who believe in Jesus:



Not entirely factually correct, but Judaic religions have borrowed a LOT from previous religions.
... But that's the worst parody ever? There's nothing right about it?
 

Kwayera

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PwarYuex said:
... But that's the worst parody ever? There's nothing right about it?
In that while Egyptian (I use that as an example) mythology varies across dynasties, they did have a "Jesus-analogue" who's story was suspiciously similar to that of the Judaic Jesus. I think the god involved was a variant of Aten. I wish I could find the paper that I read it in.
 

KFunk

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I was just thinking about that today in relation to Kwayera's post actually. Thanks for digging it up!
 

TacoTerrorist

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find it funny that you think "pro-animal" is an insult, given that you are an animal :p
People are not animals.

Read this: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...-animals-.html

And for interesting insight into non-Human culture: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...ure-shock.html

And this especially for non-Human morality: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...us-nature.html

Altruism to non-relatives IS found in other animals, and is NOT unique to humans. Get off your Biblical (and wrong) "Humans are better than all other animals" misguided, egotistical crap.
Humans ARE better than animals. I commend you for convincing me that altruism is found in some animals but even with this in mind, it does not change the fact that animals throw shit at each other at the zoo whilst we have gone to the moon.

Read this thread, it's pretty much categorically proven how incredibly unlikely it is there is a god.
As well as how incredibly unlikely it is that there is no god.
 

Enteebee

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As well as how incredibly unlikely it is that there is no god.
It is impossible for it to be both incredibly unlikely there is a god and incredibly unlikely there is no god...
 

Kwayera

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TacoTerrorist said:
People are not animals.
Why do you have so much trouble with this idea? When you think about it and remove all that our superior intelligence has done for us, we're animals (and pretty pathetic ones at that, physically). That's pretty much all we have going for us. Intelligence.

Humans ARE better than animals. I commend you for convincing me that altruism is found in some animals but even with this in mind, it does not change the fact that animals throw shit at each other at the zoo whilst we have gone to the moon.
And here's that egotism again, misplaced and without reason. Humans are not better than animals. We're different - and I certainly don't think other animals have their Maos and Stalins and Hitlers.

We may have gone to the moon, but we don't even have the chutzpah to accept that in every way that counts (and every way that doesn't), we're animals. Jeez, dude, get over it already!
 

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