Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

[raym0nd]

to kwayera, mostly

I do not believe that by acknowledging a gods presence we are undermining humans achievements, this is due to the obvious limitations of men plus the fact we are not gods ourselves.

I think its fair for you to say his existence would cheapen your life, with the whole ‘puppet’ kind of view of a supreme god creating little people, but this is where individual beliefs and faith comes into play.. free will etc etc, personally i agree with bradcube and my sense of god presence appears, to me at least, beneficial in my life.

would god creating the stars really take the awe from them, they would still be just as magnificent, so no, i do not stare at awe because god created them, but it is because god created them that i can stare in awe. plus it allows you to kind of grasp the awesomness of god (my opinion)

 

[BradCube]

But why? For me, as an analogy, I look at the stars, and an awed by them. That they are there, and we, against all those enormous odds, germinated from the primordial and survived and evolved to look at them and BE in awe.

Do you look at the stars and stare in awe because God made them?

That would cheapen the sight, to me.

Why does looking at the stars and being awed by them equate to you having value? Life on on earth can hardly be impressed by itself because it survived by chance in the big bang. To think that we actually had something to do with our own survival seems foreign to me. I mean, sure, we survived, but this does not connect with a personal sense of satisfaction, since who you believe to be you, is nothing but various matter combined with chemical reactions. You did not create you life, or your form and so cannot be proud of what it has achieved. Even if you were proud, what worth is it anyway? We come into existence and then go out of existence.

 

[darkliight]

Why does looking at the stars and being awed by them equate to you having value? Life on on earth can hardly be impressed by itself because it survived by chance in the big bang. To think that we actually had something to do with our own survival seems foreign to me. I mean, sure, we survived, but this does not connect with a personal sense of satisfaction, since who you believe to be you, is nothing but various matter combined with chemical reactions. You did not create you life, or your form and so cannot be proud of what it has achieved. Even if you were proud, what worth is it anyway? We come into existence and then go out of existence.

Define value for me Brad.

 

[Kwayera]

to kwayera, mostly

I do not believe that by acknowledging a gods presence we are undermining humans achievements, this is due to the obvious limitations of men plus the fact we are not gods ourselves.

I think its fair for you to say his existence would cheapen your life, with the whole ‘puppet’ kind of view of a supreme god creating little people, but this is where individual beliefs and faith comes into play.. free will etc etc, personally i agree with bradcube and my sense of god presence appears, to me at least, beneficial in my life.

would god creating the stars really take the awe from them, they would still be just as magnificent, so no, i do not stare at awe because god created them, but it is because god created them that i can stare in awe. plus it allows you to kind of grasp the awesomness of god (my opinion)

It's hard to explain, but with the stars? Yes, it would cheapen it for me. They weren't amazing products of the universe that created itself; they would be conjured by some being, and thus vastly less impressive.

And yes, I can say that a God existing would undermine human achievement. It wasn't us that invented science, philosophy, language, and especially morality - it was divinely inspired. How cheap indeed.

 

[BradCube]

trying to debate evolution will make things worse. theres plenty of christians which believe in evolution and god, a lot are even scientists. if you put faith in something which is a foundation of your beliefs, and it turns out to be completely wrong, theres every chance you could lose your whole belief system as well. i honestly find no problem with evolution; it doesnt make me feel any less human, doesnt change who i am or what i feel like doing - its just science and the way things are. my big personal suggestion to you would be to start questioning why you think evolution even needs to be mentioned in a thread about gods existence, and what influences those ideas. if you take the bible as the word of god, perhaps look at other possible interpretations, and once again question why you interpret the bible as you do. dont follow people if they are walking in the wrong direction.
you have every right to question and doubt gods existence. from a biblical perspective john 20:27- thomas doubted yet he touched jesus right in his wounds where none of the other diciples did. "put your finger here; see my hands. reach out your hand and put it into my side"

Oh yes, evolution is still undecided territory for me. I suppose this is why it makes good conversation here (plus we needed something to talk about!). Even if I do find myself fully embracing evolution, I don't really expect this to undermine my whole view of God. As I've been saying, it's always good to investigate how God did something rather than just ending the investigation

 

[BradCube]

Define value for me Brad.

Okay

1. relative worth, merit, or importance

 

[Kwayera]

Why does looking at the stars and being awed by them equate to you having value? Life on on earth can hardly be impressed by itself because it survived by chance in the big bang. To think that we actually had something to do with our own survival seems foreign to me. I mean, sure, we survived, but this does not connect with a personal sense of satisfaction, since who you believe to be you, is nothing but various matter combined with chemical reactions. You did not create you life, or your form and so cannot be proud of what it has achieved. Even if you were proud, what worth is it anyway? We come into existence and then go out of existence.

It doesn't. It was an analogy.

I can be proud of what our species has achieved - without a helping hand from some omnipotent being.

And yes, we come into existence and go out of it again with frightening speed. But what we do in that lifetime MATTERS, because we are alive, and we think, and we did it ourselves.

 

[darkliight]

Okay

That didn't mention a god, and since your definition seems to depend on the existence of a god, you must be using a different definition. Please tell me

 

[BradCube]

And yes, we come into existence and go out of it again with frightening speed. But what we do in that lifetime MATTERS, because we are alive, and we think, and we did it ourselves.

Why does it matter that we are alive?

 

[Kwayera]

Why does it matter that we are alive?

It matters to me. Doesn't it to you? The physicality of stepping on a blade of grass and snapping it? Of being alive to have a tangible effect on your world?

Family, friends, achievements?

 

[BradCube]

That didn't mention a god, and since your definition seems to depend on the existence of a god, you must be using a different definition. Please tell me

Heh heh, indeed.

It seems to me that creating your own system and value of worth, is completely futile. It's on the same level as me creating my own system of morality. Or it could be like creating my own value of currency, so whenever I received 1c I became genuinely happy and passionate about receiving that 1 cent.

In the end, these things are worthless if they have nothing to be compared to or governed with.

 

[darkliight]

Heh heh, indeed.

It seems to me that creating your own system and value of worth, is completely futile. It's on the same level as me creating my own system of morality. Or it could be like creating my own value of currency, so whenever I received 1c I became genuinely happy and passionate about receiving that 1 cent.

In the end, these things are worthless if they have nothing to be compared to or governed with.

So your life's worth can be measured against anothers 'somehow'. Fair enough. Still need a definition though, what is this measurement?

 

[BradCube]

It matters to me. Doesn't it to you? The physicality of stepping on a blade of grass and snapping it? Of being alive to have a tangible effect on your world?

Family, friends, achievements?

Without a God, then no none of these at all matter to me because they have no value or worth. What point is there to leaving a mark on the earth if the earth itself will eventually be destroyed? What good is there in valuing love in friends and family if all the emotions that I feel for them are simply chemical reactions and they themselves are simply sophisticated compilations of various matter. What good is an achievement if it is eventually wiped away?

 

[BradCube]

theres always math. doing maths makes you of value.

3unitz, you sure do love your math!

 

[Slidey]

Genomic analyses isn't only for currently alive specimens. It can be applied to fossils quite readily, usually, and when this is done it often fascinating results. I believe it typically involves DNA preserved in bone marrow or faecal matter and such.

Goodnight.

Without a God, then no none of these at all matter to me because they have no value or worth. What point is there to leaving a mark on the earth if the earth itself will eventually be destroyed? What good is there in valuing love in friends and family if all the emotions that I feel for them are simply chemical reactions and they themselves are simply sophisticated compilations of various matter. What good is an achievement if it is eventually wiped away?

Welcome to the end result of cognitive dissonance: the existential crisis.

 

[Kwayera]

Without a God, then no none of these at all matter to me because they have no value or worth. What point is there to leaving a mark on the earth if the earth itself will eventually be destroyed? What good is there in valuing love in friends and family if all the emotions that I feel for them are simply chemical reactions and they themselves are simply sophisticated compilations of various matter. What good is an achievement if it is eventually wiped away?

So if I'm reading you right, you require an outside observer to validate your worth. That's okay, and not uncommon. But wouldn't the universe itself serve that purpose? Why does that observer need to be omnipotent, and omniscient, and personal, and conjured?

 

[Kwayera]

Genomic analyses isn't only for currently alive specimens. It can be applied to fossils quite readily, usually, and when this is done it often fascinating results. I believe it typically involves DNA preserved in bone marrow or faecal matter and such.

Goodnight.

I stand corrected

But there are still limitations of the technique.

 

[Kwayera]

Welcome to the end result of cognitive dissonance: the existential crisis.

Fun, ain't it. It's okay, Brad, I had a smaller version of this a couple of weeks ago with regards to our species (which is detailed in this thread actually!).

 

[inala]

'.. because we are alive, and we think, and we did it ourselves.'

Our lives don't matter- unless we are achieving some greater good. The question is whether that greater good is in the eyes of humanity or the eyes of God. Much human 'achievement' (even religious achievement) is self-aggrandising vanity. We don't find ultimately find meaning in self and self-congratulation. There are universal values that are bigger than that and worth working for. Doing that brings us closer to an experience of whether or not God is real. I find that He is.

 

[BradCube]

So your life's worth can be measured against anothers 'somehow'. Fair enough. Still need a definition though, what is this measurement?

Bah, I don't even know how to answer this question properly.

My life can't be measured simply against another humans life to attain value. It needs to be measured against something objective and something outside of humanity. Without this it is a creation unto itself and creates it's own value. This is fine, but you must realize that this value and worth is only pretend. It's only worth something because humanity says it's worth something. Which as far as I can see, means its worth nothing, or at best, we don't know that it's worth anything.