Does God exist? (16 Viewers)

[Sy123]

Amid such a world, if anywhere, our ideals henceforward must find a home. That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of Man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins -- all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's habitation henceforth be safely built.

- An excerpt from A Free Man's Worship, by Bertrand Russel

 

[dan964]

can I suggest a good book to read for the affirmative argument:
firstly the Bible, but then I would recommend Tim Keller's "Reason for God"

 

[Stygian]

Could mean the difference between a stay in Hellfire or in Heaven

But if neither exist there's no point.

Sounds like the only reason you care about whether or not a god exists is so that you don't burn on the off-chance he does exist and burns everyone who didn't believe in him because he needs that form of validation.

 

[Sy123]

But if neither exist there's no point.

Sounds like the only reason you care about whether or not a god exists is so that you don't burn on the off-chance he does exist and burns everyone who didn't believe in him because he needs that form of validation.

lmao

The reason why I believe in God, is because God exists and He is the clearest Reality to anyone willing to actually investigate and open their eyes.
For some people, they follow God because they don't want to go to Hell, and who are you to say that this is not legitimate?

God does not punish people because 'He needs that form of validation', this is an incredibly ignorant view that shows that you do not know anything at all about religion.

 

[Stygian]

lmao

The reason why I believe in God, is because God exists and He is the clearest Reality to anyone willing to actually investigate and open their eyes.
For some people, they follow God because they don't want to go to Hell, and who are you to say that this is not legitimate?

God does not punish people because 'He needs that form of validation', this is an incredibly ignorant view that shows that you do not know anything at all about religion.

So what I got from this is that you declare you believe in god because he exists but you say he exists because you believe in him, which is circular.

It's not legitimate because it isn't actual genuine belief in god then, it's just a fearful gamble.

Well why does god punish people who don't believe in him? If you are all-powerful why would you want to do something, want being a desire for something you don't have. Why would this god care if people didn't worship him?

 

[Stygian]

If god is such a clear reality how come there is no actual proof of his existence. Doesn't sound very clear to me at all.

 

[iBibah]

hey just a random question; you mentioned the concept of free will. Why can't people be homo then cos they have free will? Or am I completely missing the point? (the latter is probably likely lol ._.)

Well actually people can be homosexual, and they can have same-sex relations, and they can murder, and they can be nice people, and they can be atheists, or theists. People can do what ever they want. That's the point of free will. But from the perspective of Catholicism, the idea to choose God and be faithful completely out of our own free will.

 

[seventhroot]

Well actually people can be homosexual, and they can have same-sex relations, and they can murder, and they can be nice people, and they can be atheists, or theists. People can do what ever they want. That's the point of free will. But from the perspective of Catholicism, the idea to choose God and be faithful completely out of our own free will.

Okay, if homosexuality is a sin and god forgives sins, does that mean it is okay? (Am I using the right beleifs lol)

 

[iBibah]

hey just a random question; you mentioned the concept of free will. Why can't people be homo then cos they have free will? Or am I completely missing the point? (the latter is probably likely lol ._.)

Okay, if homosexuality is a sin and god forgives sins, does that mean it is okay? (Am I using the right beleifs lol)

Homosexuality is not a sin. When I say homosexuality I mean the attraction one has to the opposite sex. The attraction is considered a temptation to sin. Just as one might have a temptation to do anything wrong. It would be awfully unjust for one to be considered a sinner because they have certain feelings or temptations. Even things like lust. If a man has a sexual thought about another women, it's not a sin because that thought entered his mind, it's only a sin once he indulges in that thought. So as soon as you have lustful thoughts and you fight them, you're not sinning, but if you indulge in those thoughts, it's considered a sin.

The sin is if one acts (or indulges) on those temptations. (in regards to homosexuality and lust here)

Now when you say God forgives, that is correct. But He forgives when one truly repents and is sorry for their sins. You can't steal something then confess your sins and all is good. You have to truly be sorry for what you've done, and only God is the perfect judge.

Some people always take on the "God is loving" approach to justify sins, but God is also a judge, the perfect judge. He saves people who want to save themselves.

So to answer if it's ok: kinda. And by kinda I mean if one has sinned (and everyone has), its never too late.

And the questions you're asking are fine, but keep in mind my answer stems from Catholicism.

 

[iBibah]

What about predestination?

Well in Catholicism, generally the idea is that God wills everyone to be saved, and he has a plan for all those willing to take it. In the Catechism it says: "God predestines no one to go to hell, for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end." Personally I'm yet to fully understand predestination in the Catholic Church as it is quite a complex idea, not as black and white as one would hope.

However one thing is for sure, the Church rejects the notion of double predestination (God has determined the eternal destiny of every human being. He has chosen some to eternal life and foreordained others to everlasting punishment).

 

[Sy123]

So what I got from this is that you declare you believe in god because he exists but you say he exists because you believe in him, which is circular.

Then you didn't get very much did you

It's not legitimate because it isn't actual genuine belief in god then, it's just a fearful gamble.

Well why does god punish people who don't believe in him? If you are all-powerful why would you want to do something, want being a desire for something you don't have. Why would this god care if people didn't worship him?

I said that people follow God out of fear of hellfire, not that people believe in Him due to the fear of hellfire, as though they're in a casino or something
God does not 'want' anything, he doesn't need anything, He tells you what will happen if you disbelieve, and what you believe, there is nothing else to affirm here. In fact it makes perfect sense since our purpose is to worship God alone, and if we don't worship Him then we do not fulfill our purpose

 

[Sy123]

If god is such a clear reality how come there is no actual proof of his existence. Doesn't sound very clear to me at all.

*God

There is actual proof of His existence, His proof is all around us in the natural world and is with the greatest human being, the Prophet Muhammad, Blessed is He.

If you want a formal proof, I have given the most simplest version already many times in this thread

There are in fact many formal proofs, and they derive off of intuitive premises, if you actually bothered to perhaps check, then I am sure you will get answers

 

[Stygian]

Then you didn't get very much did you



I said that people follow God out of fear of hellfire, not that people believe in Him due to the fear of hellfire, as though they're in a casino or something
God does not 'want' anything, he doesn't need anything, He tells you what will happen if you disbelieve, and what you believe, there is nothing else to affirm here. In fact it makes perfect sense since our purpose is to worship God alone, and if we don't worship Him then we do not fulfill our purpose

Why is our purpose to worship some hypothetical sky fairy? Why would it matter to him if we believe in him or not?

And how do you know that your god is the real one? What if the Christian god is the real one?

 

[Sy123]

Why is our purpose to worship some hypothetical sky fairy?

Classic atheistic caricature of something beyond his intellect

Why would it matter to him if we believe in him or not?

Proof that you don't read nor do you not comprehend anything

And how do you know that your god is the real one? What if the Christian god is the real one?

There are many reasons I have for choosing Islam over any other religion, namely it makes the most rational and scriptural sense as far as I'm concerned

 

[Sy123]

Assumptions:

1) The truth of a syllogism
2) The reality of time



Defense of Premise 1

- Take the situation that something comes into existence uncaused, that thing must be contingent, for if it were impossible, it would never come into existence, and if it were necessary, then the thing would always exist. Since that thing is contingent, then its existence and non-existence are equally possible. If the thing then comes into existence without any reason, i.e. out of nothing, then preponderance is given to the existence of that thing over its non-existence. Since there is no cause, it then results in what is called, "Preponderance without a preferrer". This is of utmost inconceivability, and thus something cannot come into existence uncaused.

- If something can come into existence uncaused, then given absolutely nothing, something can come into existence. Since 'nothing' cannot give preponderance to certain things over others (since 'nothing' has no properties), then anything and everything can come into nothing. This is of utmost inconceviability and thus something cannot come into existence uncaused.

- The premise is self-evident, those who deny this premise should give evidence as to why such a self-evident premise is wrong

Defense of Premise 2

- If the Universe has existed since pre-eternity, then this entails an infinite regress of contingent events. However every contingent causal chain has a first term, since the first term is the actual 'true cause' of the entire chain of causes. In an infinite regress there is no 'true cause' and therefore no causation can happen.

- If the Universe has existence since pre-eternity, then this entails an actual infinite number of past events. The concept of the actual infinite does not exist in the real world. For it leads to contradictions to the law of non-contradiction. Say I had an actually infinite number of marbles, and you took an infinite amount, if all that remained for me were 1 marble, you took an infinite amount of marbles. But if there were 2, or 3 or 5 or 26 marbles left for me, you still took an infinite amount of marbles. Thus, the same situation has led to many different possibilites, this of course contradicts the law of non-contradiction, meaning that A and not-A cannot both be true. Since an actual infinite cannot exist in the real world, there can not exist an actually infinite number of past events. Thus the universe cannot be pre-eternal.

Defense of Premise 4
- If the Universe has a cause, then this cause is immaterial, and outside space and time since the Universe is all of space and time, thus the cause of the universe is transcendent

- If the Universe has a cause, then this cause has a Will, since if the Universe was caused by a non-conscious cause, then the cause cannot give preponderance to the existence of the Universe over its non-existence. Since they are of equal possibility. Therefore the cause of the Universe must have a Will, and thus be conscious.

- If the cause has a Will, then a Will entails Life, and Life entails Power and Knowledge

- If this cause has Life, Power, Knowledge and is transcendent, then all these properties must be perfect. If the cause's Power and Knowledge were finite in ability, then it requires a preponderator to give preponderance to a certain measure of Power and Knowledge over others, i.e. if the cause can only effect vegetarian pizzas, it must be asked why vegetarian pizzas only, and not vegetarian and meat pizzas as well. These are of equal possibility, and thus entails an accidental property in the eternal Cause of the universe. But of course any accidental property requires a preponderator to give importance to that specific accident over others. This is entirely avoided if the attributes are perfect. Therefore, the cause has perfect Knowledge, and Power and Will.

- If this cause has Life, perfect Power, perfect Knowledge, has Will and is transcendent, then this is what all people of intelligence calls God

- Thus if the Universe has a cause, then this cause is God

Just refute one point in this, if you cannot and you still reject the conclusion then you are irrational

 

[Stygian]

Classic atheistic caricature of something beyond his intellect



Proof that you don't read nor do you not comprehend anything



There are many reasons I have for choosing Islam over any other religion, namely it makes the most rational and scriptural sense as far as I'm concerned

This is pretty much an elaborate way of avoiding the question.

 

[jdennis]

So as soon as you have lustful thoughts and you fight them, you're not sinning, but if you indulge in those thoughts, it's considered a sin.

So for a homosexual person, "indulging" in their sexuality with which they were born is a sin.

He forgives when one truly repents and is sorry for their sins.

So if you're born gay, you have to be truly sorry for the "sin" that God gives you at birth in order to be forgiven? What kind of crazy logic is that?

 

[Sy123]

This is pretty much an elaborate way of avoiding the question.

I thought the answer was obvious, but anyway

- The reason why our purpose is to worship and know God, is precisely because that is what God says our purpose is, there is no way to deduce through the intellect, our objective purpose of life without referring to God. If you disagree, then you must demonstrate proof as to an alternate purpose that holds true by rational necessity

- It does not matter to God whether we believe in Him or not, rather it matters to us, because God is not affected by it at all. Preachers use the analogy for simple-minded folk of an examiner, the examiner does not really care if you pass or fail, but He is the one to give you the exam and to grade you. If you fail, it means you fail the course and thus you did not fulfill your purpose of coming to university (and so on)

- We can determine through our intellect whether or not a particular concept of God is rationally possible. For example, polytheists can be refuted by the argument:

1 - If there are multiple Maximally Great Beings (MGB), then they are identical in attributes
2 - Take one MGB who wills event A and another MGB who wills event not-A at the same moment
3 - If the will of the first MGB is taken over the second, then they are not identical in power, contradicting premise 1
4 - If the will of the second MGB is taken over the first, then they are not identical in power, contradicting premise 2
5 - Both wills cannot take place as it contradicts the law of non-contradiction
6 - If neither Will takes place they are both impotent, contradicting their status as MGB
7 - Thus all options end in contradiction, entailing that the original premise (of multiple MGBs) as illogical
8 - Thus polytheism is false

Similarly we can invoke other arguments to refute other religious traditions, further, one may appeal to scriptural arguments, such as those from miracles, historicity and prophecy

However this thread is about the existence of God, with a capital G, who is a Being possessing all perfections, namely perfect Will, Knowledge and Power who is transcendent.
Asking about specific conceptions of God is not related to this thread

 

[jdennis]

Just refute one point in this, if you cannot and you still reject the conclusion then you are irrational

This has already been discussed at length in this thread. Even if the argument holds up, it only provides a case for deism. You still have all your work ahead of you if you want to believe in a particular god or gods. This, of course, implies that the argument overcomes the problems with it, which it doesn't (and we have already been through this).

What evidence is there for a "timeless" God and how does this concept even make any sense?
How can a timeless God create the universe in one instant if such a God exists outside of time?
Why does God seem to escape any logical questioning of his cause, simply because of your assertion that God does not need a cause?
How can you know with such certainty that your argument holds up when we do not even understand truly what occurred when the universe began?

 

[jdennis]

The reason why our purpose is to worship and know God, is precisely because that is what God says our purpose is, there is no way to deduce through the intellect, our objective purpose of life without referring to God. If you disagree, then you must demonstrate proof as to an alternate purpose that holds true by rational necessity

Why does life have to have a purpose, and why can't it be subjective? Why can't it be, if it exists, based on our experience and interpretation of life?

It does not matter to God whether we believe in Him or not, rather it matters to us, because God is not affected by it at all.

Ah, so this is why God seems to get so upset when we don't believe in him and sends us to hell. Thanks for clearing that up!