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Does God Exist? (1 Viewer)

firehose

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joujou_84 said:
there is one thing ill mention. the bible has been changed many times. we are no longer certain if its even the word of god. why has the bible not been preserved? .
OH EXCUSE ME??? Here u are accusing others of not knowing enough about Islam yet ranting on about it and yet here u are bashing the Bible about not being 'Word of God' enough when the whole time it remains the genuine word of God, full stop.

Here is an extract from a book explaining the whole matter

Inspired Stuff , Peter Downey and Ben Shaw
10. How do we know the Bible got to us accurately?

Some people have a Chinese Whispers opinion of the Bible. They know that biblical writings are a few thousand years old, and they assume that they were passed on from person to person, group to group, generation to generation, language to language and that over the centures, mistakes and changes (both deliberate and accidental) crept in and the words, sentences and meanings changed, so that what we now read as...

Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life'

actually began as...

Jesus said. 'Would you like fries with that?'

In short, they suggest that the Bible is unreliable and that it has changed over the years both through accidental errors and deliberate intervention.
Okay, so let's work through these concerns.

In the game Chinese Whispers , what you basically have is a chain of people. Each person gets the message and passes it along to the next person in the chain. As the errors (both deliberate and accidental) start to creep in, they too are passed along, and so the errors multiply as they move along the chain, until at the end, the message bears little or no resemblance to the original.

The Bible did not get to the twenty-first century like this. Let's remember that these holy writings were sacred to the ancient Jews and early Christians. They were treated with great respect and care. Way before laser printers, photocopiers and publishing houses, all copies were handwritten by scribes.

Scribes didn't do this as a hobby in their spare time when they weren't farming vegetables. This was their profession. It was a highly valued and important profession. They went to great lengths to ensure the accuracy of their work.

Every time they copied a page, they would go back and compare the copy to the original word for word. No word and no letter were written from memory. They counted and checked all the letters on each page. A head scribe checked their work. They followed meticulous rules to ensure accuracy. Any mistakes and the page would be destroyed. They wrote in columns of no fewer than 48 and no more than 60 lines. Each column had 30 letters. The ink they used had a special recipe. And to top it off, the scribe had to wash himself and be in full Jewish dress before beginning to copy a scroll.

So the copies that came down through the generations were meticulously produced, kind of like a game of Chinese Whispers where each person checks and confirms their hearing of the message ten times with everyone else around them and compares it to a written version from up the line before they pass it on.

The point is that today's Bible has not evolved, but remained true to its origins.

In addition, we can cross-reference our 21st century Bible with early translations of biblical writings, like the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament made about 250 BC), Targums (Aramaic translations of the original Hebrew made over one hundred years before Christ was born, also referred to as the Syriac translations), the Vulgate (the Latin translation of both Old and New Testaments written in the fourth century AD) and the previously mentioned Dead Sea Scrolls.

To go back to our game of Chinese Whispers , this is like the person at the end of the chain being able to check and compare his or her own message with the first five people in the chain.

By comparing our modern Old Testament with these early writings, we can see that the Bible has not changed in two thousand years. Any historian will tell you that the Bible is historically valid and reliable. In fact, of all the manuscripts and documents that you would read about in any Ancient History course, the Bible is without doubt the most supported, most accurate and most researched on the planet.

So rest assured that when u grab the Bible off your shelf and read it, you are reading from a high quality, totally valid, original historical book, just as accurate now as it was 'way back then'.
Please read through that before making such a sweeping statement again.
 

joujou_84

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firehose said:
OH EXCUSE ME??? Here u are accusing others of not knowing enough about Islam yet ranting on about it and yet here u are bashing the Bible about not being 'Word of God' enough when the whole time it remains the genuine word of God, full stop.
.
well dont have a heart attack...many scholars have admitted that the original manuscripts have never been found, and im not saying its ALL wrong...most is still correct...however when ONE word is changed in a holy book, then this book can no longer be called a reliable one. it has been altered.

i took the time to read this, it actually took me 3 days so i suggest u read it as well.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/
 

firehose

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joujou_84 said:
well dont have a heart attack...many scholars have admitted that the original manuscripts have never been found, and im not saying its ALL wrong...most is still correct...however when ONE word is changed in a holy book, then this book can no longer be called a reliable one. it has been altered.

i took the time to read this, it actually took me 3 days so i suggest u read it as well.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/

Well if i accused the Quran of being inaccurate without ample evidence you would be upset right? So, don't do the same to the Bible. Umm, even if ONE word is changed, doesn't necessarily make it totally unreliable. If u wrote an essay and changed one word in it for more clarification it doesn't automatically make that unreliable. There are a million ways to explain the same point. With the Bible, the modern version may be in modern languages but make no mistake it brings to same message forth as those old language versions ages ago. It is still the inspired Word of God. I did not make any comments about the Quran because I know I do not have sufficient information to do so, so it would be appreciated if u could do the same (contrary to what u may think, no you do not have sufficient information).
Some manuscripts (notably more of Paul's letters) were never found and so never made it into the Bible, but that does not affect the Bible's integrity at all. I'll read through that website later (i hope u didn't base all your information from that site). But please be respectful enough to not accuse the Bible of whatever when u do not know enough about it.
 

joujou_84

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firehose said:
Umm, even if ONE word is changed, doesn't necessarily make it totally unreliable. If u wrote an essay and changed one word in it for more clarification it doesn't automatically make that unreliable.
its not an essay..its meant to be the word of god. if its got one error then it cant be gods word. i can stuff up in an essay coz im not god.
 

firehose

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My point is that a MESSAGE put forward can be expressed in several different ways. It's not like one word can change everything. People can and do still find advice from the Bible everyday knowing that it is the genuine word of God, and if u resent that then that's your problem.
 

joujou_84

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firehose said:
My point is that a MESSAGE put forward can be expressed in several different ways. It's not like one word can change everything. People can and do still find advice from the Bible everyday knowing that it is the genuine word of God, and if u resent that then that's your problem.
i had a problem...hence i left christianity... now i dont have a problem....problem solved. ive done my research...i hope u will do the same...just so that when u speak on behalf of ur religion, u actually know wat ur on about.
 

firehose

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Were u once a Christian joujou? I mean like a born-again, fully practising, church-going Christian, not just a nominal Christian?
 

JamiL

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Does God Exist? ... u know what i can not answer that question, just like we are no certain as to what or how the world was created....
Does God Exist? this is a question of faith, not belief... when u believe you do not question, you follow blindly. this is ingnorace.
faith is a understanding of a religion, but with still the ability 2 question it. i am Orthadox Christain. i do believe that there is a God, but i do not agree with many aspects of my religion and Catholics, and Islam, and other religons. Such as the segragation of religon. this does not make me any lesser a person.
The bible can not be used as a primary source to prove God exists. even if everything in it happened the way it said they are storys told by men over two thousand years ago. you can not take these stories out of context and expect to use them as proof...
It is impossible to prove God exists
 

joujou_84

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firehose said:
Were u once a Christian joujou? I mean like a born-again, fully practising, church-going Christian, not just a nominal Christian?
i went to church every now and then....but no.. we werent a religious family...although i know a hell alot more abt christainity then my parents do due to the amount of research and reading i did.
 

firehose

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joujou_84 said:
i went to church every now and then....but no.. we werent a religious family...although i know a hell alot more abt christainity then my parents do due to the amount of research and reading i did.
Ah ok then. Well, i'm sure Islam does for you what Christianity does for me. I respect that. I am also sure that i do know what i am talking about, but i suppose from your perspective u think i do not. That's understandable. As Islam does it for you i wish u all the best, even though i really do believe that if u were truly once a Christian u would have seen the light, and all your questions would have been answered, and you would have a life after death. But u can choose not to listen to that. I need to do some work now so bye for now. I appreciated that discussion.
 

mr EaZy

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Kulazzi said:
sorry easy but I'll have to disagree with you there. When you are becoming a muslim, you need to recite the shahada. (unless you're shia b/c I am sunni, this may be the reason. I has a disagreement with joujou before on something before we realised that we were from different branches of Islam)
Edit: lol, yeah, it took me some time before i realised that thing too. I used to have this problem of assuming that all branches of Islam are the same.

im sunni :)

to be a mu'min u must say the shahada.
A muslim by definition is someone who has submitted to the will of Allah.


Now the prophets were muslims and the shahada is in Arabic.
Angels are muslims
Babies and children who have not reached puberty are muslims regardless of what their parents have labelled them or baptized them or whatever - MUSLIM :)

To me; Being Muslim is a state of existance.
 
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katie_tully

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God appeared to me in the form of a muffin today.
I ate him.

So, in conclusion: God existed, but not anymore.
 
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This is a neverending arguement, that unfortunately I too became invovled in, and like abortion it will never go away, nor will it be solved. It will never come down to one answer, because there are so so many beliefs out there that appeal to everyone and everyone is different.

So, even tho I used to fire up on this thread quite regularly, for fuck's sake, accept each others beliefs, accept the fact that YOUR religion isn't the best, or most perfect, or most correct. There will never be a perfect religion, anywhere or anytime.

Different people believe different things, and there's nothing you, or you, or YOU, can do to stop it. All you can do is accept that some people believe in a god, some people believe in many gods, some people don't believe in any god, or anything for that matter.

Nothing YOU say is going to change someone elses perspective by firing up at them over this forum, all it's going to do is make them angry, and want to show you up, and thus the vicious cycle begins and continues.

I've come to that realisation, so I can only hope you guys can realise the same.
 
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katie_tully

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God the muffin is passing through my small intestines as we speak, isnt that reason enough to cease the argument?
 

joujou_84

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Katie ur posts used to be worth reading on this thread...however now i dont even read them....if u dont have something decent to say then why do u keep posting on this thread...im actually curious as to wat ur motives are...
 

joujou_84

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firehose said:
even though i really do believe that if u were truly once a Christian u would have seen the light, and all your questions would have been answered, and you would have a life after death. .
u know. i had no intention on ever converting. i just wanted to understand my religion (christainity) better. no body likes to say their religion is wrong. i held on as much as i could i swear. but in the end. for me, the truth was hitting me in the face and that truth was islam. theres nothing like believing in ur religion 100% and not having any doubts..if christainity does that for you then thats great because u will live a happy life.
 
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katie_tully

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joujou_84 said:
Katie ur posts used to be worth reading on this thread...however now i dont even read them....if u dont have something decent to say then why do u keep posting on this thread...im actually curious as to wat ur motives are...
I'll be sure to let you know when I care, JouJou. Until then, cheers in blindly following your chosen cult.
 

mr EaZy

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mr EaZy said:
quite a number of athiests happen to be nihlists.
We know that all nihlists are athiests (i mean how can they believe in god when they dont believe in anything?0
and a lot of nihlists are infact anarchists ( seek chaos and destruction in life)

so a world filled with athiests would STINK basically :)

my reasoning still stands :D
 

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