Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[MoonlightSonata]

ok you want evidence

here is evidence

http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurudwaras/gop-012.htm

Kindly explain to me how that is evidence.

 

[Kwayera]

I'd like to know that, too.

 

[dark_angel]

Kindly explain to me how that is evidence.

Well in the sikh religion, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was blessed with the inner essence of god, a messenger you might say, well as the event is told in the text, some guy got angry and pushed a rather large boulder down a mountain aiming for Guru Nanak, and he stopped it with one hand, it being pressed into the rock, which has survived through the centuries.

Like i said, u might dismiss this, but i assure u the boulder still exists, with the impression of a hand at that very mountain. There is a picture of the boulder with the impression at the site the website that is

http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurudwaras/gop-012.htm

Well Guru Nanak was a messenger i suppose, and the act of super human strenght is perhaps the evidence here.

This is all documented in the holy text of the Sikhs, but what is also mentioned is the context, which correspond with the bible and other holy texts.

There is also some other 'evidence' my parents told me a while ago, but i think i might have to research.

According to my parents and the Sikh Holy book, there is a certain type of tree which produces a fruit used in ancient india as a surfactant, ie for washing, this was extremely sour and bitter, but there seems to be an acount of an event where Guru Nanak was with another traveller, and he was famished from the harsh environment, he knew that he could not eat the fruit as he would probably die, but he asked the guru what he should eat. The guru replied that he should eat the fruit, so as a devotee would, he broke the fruit apart and to his suprise the fruit was ripe and tasty, and edible.

Apparently this is the only tree in the world that has the same fruit that is ripe and edible and it exists still today.

So i will do some research for u and try to find out more on this. i apologize for my lack of knowledge pertaining to these issues, but as i said i had no time during HSC, but i am well on my way to learning about my religion more thouroughly

 

[ur_inner_child]

*dances and ruins the serious mood*

 

[Kwayera]

Well in the sikh religion, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was blessed with the inner essence of god, a messenger you might say, well as the event is told in the text, some guy got angry and pushed a rather large boulder down a mountain aiming for Guru Nanak, and he stopped it with one hand, it being pressed into the rock, which has survived through the centuries.

Like i said, u might dismiss this, but i assure u the boulder still exists, with the impression of a hand at that very mountain. There is a picture of the boulder with the impression at the site the website that is

http://allaboutsikhs.com/gurudwaras/gop-012.htm

Well Guru Nanak was a messenger i suppose, and the act of super human strenght is perhaps the evidence here.

This is all documented in the holy text of the Sikhs, but what is also mentioned is the context, which correspond with the bible and other holy texts.

There is also some other 'evidence' my parents told me a while ago, but i think i might have to research.

According to my parents and the Sikh Holy book, there is a certain type of tree which produces a fruit used in ancient india as a surfactant, ie for washing, this was extremely sour and bitter, but there seems to be an acount of an event where Guru Nanak was with another traveller, and he was famished from the harsh environment, he knew that he could not eat the fruit as he would probably die, but he asked the guru what he should eat. The guru replied that he should eat the fruit, so as a devotee would, he broke the fruit apart and to his suprise the fruit was ripe and tasty, and edible.

Apparently this is the only tree in the world that has the same fruit that is ripe and edible and it exists still today.

So i will do some research for u and try to find out more on this. i apologize for my lack of knowledge pertaining to these issues, but as i said i had no time during HSC, but i am well on my way to learning about my religion more thouroughly

You know, that wouldn't be the first time that something real has had a story invented to go with it (or altered to fit with it) just to bolster urban myth or religion.

This is no more proof than the Bible is.

 

[dark_angel]

Ok, firstly I'd like to say that I have been treating you guys with nothing but repsect, and I haven't been swearing my head of and attacking people like some others have been doing. Please guys, stay cool.

Secondly dark_angel, your posts are confusing, I find it hard to work out which side you are barracking for, you seem to contradict yourself sometimes.

Thirdly, had a look at that Sikhism side that you say you believe in:
2 of their "philosophies":

-"The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God. This can be accomplished by following the teachings of the Guru, meditation on the Holy Name and performance of acts of service and charity."
-"The five cardinal vices are; Kam (lust), Krodh (anger), Lobh (greed), Moh (worldly attachment) and Ahankar (pride). If one can overcome these, they will achieve salvation."

Ok, I ask you, how, by doing anything can we achieve salvation? How can people think that by making ourselves "good" enough we can please God? God is huger and more powerful than we could ever imagine and our pathetic attempts to follow commands and perform "acts of service and charity" can never match up to God's standard which is perfection. They are filthy rags to God. The only way we can be right with God is by acknowledging our failings, our weaknesses, our inadequacies, our constant desire to go against God and realise that only God can save us, there is nothing we can do, it must be all done by God. This is what separates Christianity from all other "religions." All other belief systems say, you must do this, you must pray 66 times a day, you must touch a special relic, you must make a pilgrimage, you must give to the poor, you must overcome vices like lust, anger, greed, wordly attachment and pride (as in the above quote). But Christianity says, it has all been done, it has all been done by Jesus, the price for our constant failings has been paid, there is nothing that we can do to make God make us more, and nothing we can do to make God love us less. Please guys, think about this.




Following on from my argument above, there is therefore no way that Christians can be justified in saying "oh i'm so morally upstanding" or whatever it is. That shows that they haven't understood the message. A Christian's life is characterised by humility. They recognise that Jesus has died in their place and there is absolutely no works they can do to make themselves "righteous."

And thank you inasero for clearing up the free will thing. In the beginning God decribed everything he created as "very good" but he also gave man a unique and intelligent mind to make their own decisions. Love can only be genuine when it is a choice. Otherwise we would all be robots and you guys wouldn't like that would you!?

hmmm u seem to contradict yourself too, first u say this:

God is huger and more powerful than we could ever imagine and our pathetic attempts to follow commands and perform "acts of service and charity" can never match up to God's standard which is perfection. They are filthy rags to God. The only way we can be right with God is by acknowledging our failings, our weaknesses, our inadequacies, our constant desire to go against God and realise that only God can save us, there is nothing we can do, it must be all done by God. This is what separates Christianity from all other "religions."

let me just quote the sentence again. "...there is nothing we can do, it must be all done by God"

isnt that a sort of fatalism here, i dont want to get into fate and other stuff, but u reply that we would be robots if we didnt have choices, but then u say everything must all be done by god.

What is the purpose of the brain then?

What is the purpose of free choice and free will?

What is the purpose of even believing in god if God does everything for us (which i think u quite clearly imply)?

And as your comments regarding the practices of the sikh religion, this is what has been obtained from the Guru Granth Sahib. This is a holy text, and it is the perpetual guru for us. I think it is so neat beacause we do not have any priests of any kind. The gurus thought that they were filled with mammon and ego, and so there is only one guru (a guru is not a god, but rather a messenger of god, but i beleive they have gods spirit through them all) i think we can all say that this is true, especially with all the priests commiting sex crimes agains children.

hmmm there is alot of philosphy in the sikh culture, and i am constantly learning about it, and i'm telling you i think it is the most logical, philosophical doctrine that i have ever come across. I cant read the text, but my parents are teaching me the old language in the context when it was writtten.

I think think thats the major difference between christianity and sikhism, one has priests, and the other one does not, but i can tell u that they are similar in that they beleive in the one god.

There is only one God, he is the Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.

God cannot take human form.

The goal of human life is to break the cycle of birth's and deaths and merge with God. This can be accomplished by following the teachings of the Guru, meditation on the Holy Name and performance of acts of service and charity.

Without devotion to the Name Divine is birth in the world gone waste. Such consume poison, poisonous their utterance; Without devotion to the Name, without gain they die, and after death in transmigration wander." (Guru Nanak, Raga Bhairon)

"True life is life in God, contemplation on the Name and the society of the saints" (Guru Arjan Dev, Dhanasari)

"I shall merge in the Lord like the water in the sea and the wave in the stream. The soul will merge in God and like air I shall look upon all alike. Then why shall I come again? The coming and going is under the Will of the Lord and Realising This Will, I shall merge in the Lord" (Bhagat Kabir, Maru)

"The disciple of the True Guru (God) dwells upon the Lord through the teaching of the Guru and all his sins are washed away" (Guru Ram Das, Var Gauri)

"Our service in the world gets us a seat in the Court of the Lord" (Guru Nanak, Sri Rag)

"One known as disciple of the holy Perceptor must, rising at dawn, on the Name Divine meditate" (Guru Ram Das, Raga Gauri)

"He neither has father, nor mother, nor sons nor brothers." (Guru Nanak, Maru)

"Burnt be the mouth that asserts, the Lord takes birth. He is neither born nor dies; neither enters birth nor departs. All pervasive is Nanaks Lord." (Guru Arjan Dev, Raga Bhairon)

there are tons of other stuff if u want to look it up u can, but i dont think there is anything at all wrong with the sikh religion. I have not found any flaws as of yet.

 

[dark_angel]

You know, that wouldn't be the first time that something real has had a story invented to go with it (or altered to fit with it) just to bolster urban myth or religion.

This is no more proof than the Bible is.

wtf, hey i dont see noahs ark floating anywhere, do u?!?!?

as i said whatever i state as evidence will always be disregarded.

Even if gods messenger appeared before ur eyes, would u beleive in it, or would u say its some sort of optical illusion.

let me tell u something, there are some things in this universe that u cannot know of. Dont trust your senses. The very computer screen u are watching now is flickering at a rate faster than your eye can computate.

U would not know if a picture came up in one sweep of electrons on the screen, you could not know because ur eye ( or perhaps our brain) cannot computate that fast.

i think Descartes summed it up pretty well.

"Cogito Ergo Sum" i think therefore i am, the only think he was certain of was that he existed, even if that denied him of all other knowledge.


i trust my senses, but i acknowledge that there are some things that i will never know or more importantly CANNOT know of eg black hole singularity, wateva.

ah crap i got off track

yes well what i'm trying to say is that do u have any evidence to prove that god does not exist?

if not, then i will kindly disregard ur post.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Good for you posting up stuff about a religion i know very little about (other than my friend being a part of it and it having a cool name), I'm not going to debate with you flaws in sikhism, I don't know enough about the religion.. why do i reject it without knowing everything tho? Because there are basic fundamental things wrong with ALL religion & ALL beliefs in a diety..

Your religion has as strong a base to it as any other....

 

[MoonlightSonata]

dark_angel, I am tempted to use this 'ignore list' feature

Instead I will answer you simply:

1. That is no better evidence than the Bible: reason for that has been discussed many times before.

2. Simply because we can't show god does not exist, is not a good reason for believing that he does exist.

 

[dark_angel]

dark_angel, I am tempted to use this 'ignore list' feature

Instead I will answer you simply:

1. That is no better evidence than the Bible: reason for that has been discussed many times before.

2. Simply because we can't show god does not exist, is not a good reason for believing that he does exist.

and i will reply simply:

1. ok i agree with you, but it is quite strong evidence, and i personally believe in it so it doesnt matter what you, or anyone else thinks. IT is likely that any evidence i give of the existence of god will be refuted, so i wont be bothered posting anymore evidence. Believe it if u want to, if u dont then i applaud u for taking your own viewpoint.

2. The fact that u cant show god does not exist is not a reason at all that supports my belief in god. As i said u cant debate this any further, different people will have different opinions.

3. dont say god dosent exist.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

3. dont say god dosent exist.

Don't say he does then... =/

Different people will have different opinions, but some people's opinions are based on nothing, make believe, fantasy.. i've seen little evidence of anything more comming from religion.

 

[dark_angel]

Good for you posting up stuff about a religion i know very little about (other than my friend being a part of it and it having a cool name), I'm not going to debate with you flaws in sikhism, I don't know enough about the religion.. why do i reject it without knowing everything tho? Because there are basic fundamental things wrong with ALL religion & ALL beliefs in a diety..

Your religion has as strong a base to it as any other....

hahaha yeah i'm not so strong in the sikh philosophy either, but i can tell u that every religion ive seen has a major flaw, and sikhism dosent...at least not yet.

that may seem biased, but it dosent really matter because i believe in it and will continue to do so

- gimme one basic fundmental thing wrong with sikhism

you dont really have to answer because your not a sikh obviously, and dont know that much as i dont know much about christianity or whatever.

but i have to say i disagree.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Which religion talks about that they "Lord and Lady is within us all" as in the elements of God are within us and ARE us?

It's kinda a nice religion, from the basic stuff I know about it. Anyone know what the hell I'm talking about?

 

[dark_angel]

Don't say he does then... =/

Different people will have different opinions, but some people's opinions are based on nothing, make believe, fantasy.. i've seen little evidence of anything more comming from religion.

y not? u can prove that he dosent exist via epistemology, but proving that he does exist is impossible, as u said, its subjective, the entire point of the thread.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

if u want to tell us 'DON'T saY God doesn't exist'
then don't say that he does exist, since IN YOUR opinion both arguments have as much weight as each other...

 

[dark_angel]

Which religion talks about that they "Lord and Lady is within us all" as in the elements of God are within us and ARE us?

It's kinda a nice religion, from the basic stuff I know about it. Anyone know what the hell I'm talking about?

yes thats in sikhism also, god is within us.

damn i cant find the quote at the moment, but i got some other good ones:

"The world is in agony because of the filth of ego, the word is filthy because of duality; The filth of ego cannot be washed away, even if one bathes at one hundred holy places." (Guru Amar Das, Sri Raga)

Sikhism rejects all distinctions of caste, creed, race or sex

"All are created from the seed of God. There is the same clay in the whole world, the potter (God) makes many kinds of pots." (Guru Amar Das, Bhairo)

"Recognise the light (of God) and do not ask for the caste, There is no caste in the next world." (Guru Nanak, Asa)

The Guru's stressed the full equality of women, rejecting female infanticide, sati (wife burning), permitting widow remarriage and rejects purdah (women wearing veils).

"We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak, Var Asa)

what a quote!!!

 

[dark_angel]

if u want to tell us 'DON'T saY God doesn't exist'
then don't say that he does exist, since IN YOUR opinion both arguments have as much weight as each other...

in MY opinion, both arguements do NOT have equal weight as each other, because u can't prove that "god does not exist", but on the other hand if u try and prove that 'god does exist" u cannot, it depends on the individual.

Let me also say that the former, ie 'god does not exist', people will have their own views on epistemology and vice versa. If u dont beleive that u cannot obtain all knowledge, then i dare u to pass the event horizon in a black hole singularity, its black because not even light can escape.

 

[Vezzellda]

let me just quote the sentence again. "...there is nothing we can do, it must be all done by God"

isnt that a sort of fatalism here, i dont want to get into fate and other stuff, but u reply that we would be robots if we didnt have choices, but then u say everything must all be done by god.

What is the purpose of the brain then?

What is the purpose of free choice and free will?

What is the purpose of even believing in god if God does everything for us (which i think u quite clearly imply)?

hmmm there is alot of philosphy in the sikh culture, and i am constantly learning about it, and i'm telling you i think it is the most logical, philosophical doctrine that i have ever come across. I cant read the text, but my parents are teaching me the old language in the context when it was writtten.

I think think thats the major difference between christianity and sikhism, one has priests, and the other one does not, but i can tell u that they are similar in that they beleive in the one god.

No, I think you've misunderstood me. What I was saying about God doing everything for us was in the context of achieving salvation and being forgiven from turning away from him. All other religions say you must do stuff to be forgiven, but with Christianity, Jesus takes the punishment we deserve by dying brutally on the cross for us and then rising again so that we cna be right with God again. See, we completely deserve destruction and punishment for what we have done, but Jesus takes this away for us if we trust in him. Wde can never match up to God's standard of perfection. But this definitely does not mean that we can sit around and do nothing afterwards, as someone asked before. Once we have trusted in Jesus, we then attempt to act in a way that pleases and brings glory to God, though we constantly fail to do so, living in this way shows that we realise how much Jesus has done for us and are thankful. Once we have accepted God's free gift of salvation the only option is to live a new life, we cannot dwell on our old sinful lives anymore.

Do you understand what I mean?

Woh, its so hard to get the right message across in a written argument, you can't tell what kind of tone everyone is speaking in.




And a question for those people here who don't believe in God or are not sure if he exists: what do you think is going to happen to you when you die??

 

[inasero]

And yet God is supposed to be ominscient, thus he knew it would all go awry anyway. HMMMMM.

thats the thing, He created the world knowing that man would fall

1. That is no better evidence than the Bible: reason for that has been discussed many times before.

2. Simply because we can't show god does not exist, is not a good reason for believing that he does exist.

yep, i noticed that statement (2) is one question which dark_angel has failed to address...which is essentially the crux of the argument whether God exists. And yes, you are true that other than the Bible, we don't have much to go on. But this isn't a bad thing as you are implying. In fact I can provide evidence that the bible is historically true. Then would you believe in Christ?

 

[inasero]

what do you think is going to happen to you when you die??

Jesus' blood will atone for my sins and I will be deemed rightrous on Judgement Day. I will go to Heaven. You are right in that there's nothing we can do to earn our salvation.