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Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

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mz_purfect said:
Its from one his DVDs called: Truth of the Life of this World. I can guarantee that anyone (regardless of their faith) who watches this DVD will find it extremely motivating to really 'search' their inner soul and the meaning of the ephermeral nature of our lives. Its so incredibly moving. It makes me cry. Yahya rules man. May Allah bless him. Ameen.
100% agreed...... whilst the world still seraches for clues on how we may attain to world peace.. and how the conflict can be resolved between Israelis and Palestinians.. he's allready written books about it.. it's a matter of ppl reading them....

Ameen...
 

VonDavis

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mz_purfect said:
Its from one his DVDs called: Truth of the Life of this World. I can guarantee that anyone (regardless of their faith) who watches this DVD will find it extremely motivating to really 'search' their inner soul and the meaning of the ephermeral nature of our lives. Its so incredibly moving. It makes me cry. Yahya rules man. May Allah bless him. Ameen.
Can you get that from anywhere? I would be interested in seeing it.
 

Kierkegaard

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if humans commit evil then wat does this have to do with god
Did God not create humans? it's called a 'causal chain'.

once again if god were to prevent evil from happening then that would be taking away our free will….
Assuming that we have free-will and that an omniscient God exists...but wait, I make a contradiction. If an entity has knowledge of what WILL happen, it WILL happen, no matter what we do, hence free-will does not exist. Anyway, why must we have free-will?

edit: ur saying "humans kill one another and commit evil therefore god is not benevolent"......is that ur logic?
No.


1. The watchmaker analogy is patently absurd. We have prior knowledge that watchmakers make watches. We do not have prior knowledge of entity=God. It's a false analogy.

2. The problem of evil has been completely misunderstood here. There is evil in God's creation. The argument does not assert that this evil is created by humans, but that there exists evil in the creation of a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity. It's simple!

Can you all promise me that you do at least introductory philosophy subjects at uni? Everyone should do a critical thinking subject at least, or else we'd have watchmaker arguments and and teleological argument thrown about all the bloody time. Thousands of years of philosophical and logical improvement have shown these to be patently wrong. Why must we move backwards? I'm needing a modal argument here--anyone got one for me, or are we going to sit down with Descartes for the rest of this debate?
 
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Arvin Sloane

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VonDavis said:
There is plently of evidence ....
Such as? What's that? Nothing other then a book riddled with contradictory messages and superstitious mumbo-jumbo? Right. Nice try.

You can not make an empty simplistic naïvely broad statement like "There is plenty of evidence" and then not give me any, ending only with a trail of periods which makes you look like you passed out on your keyboard.

Give me one piece of evidence, that proves the empirical existance of 'god'. One. I dare you. Until then do not insult me and the people of this board with your baseless, inane, derisory statements.
 
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VonDavis said:
exactly .... I have nothing against non-believers and it's interesting that non-believers are against us.
In all honestly I am just trying to allow non-christians to have the knowledge of what christianity is about I do not try to preach or brainwash or condemn I am just proud of myself as a person of god and feel as though I should share my happiness with everyone else
Hmm, it's interesting that non-believers are against you?

Earlier today, as you may recall, one of the posters on this thread instantly retaliated to a comment of mine as if it'd been a personal attack on her/him. No. It was me stating my beliefs, that is, I believe in evolution over creation and that the bible is contradictory and sexist. It wasn't an attack on you personally, I was expresing an opinion on a very highly opionated board where there is bound to be conflict of interest. But it seems to me that 'believers' take everything said about religion as an attack on them, so perhaps you can have asomething to whinge about?

In all honestly I am just trying to allow non-christians to have the knowledge of what christianity is about
Do you think if we wanted the knowledge of Christianity, we could go offf and get it ourselves, from ah maybe, the bible? Not an obviously biased 'believer'. Good for you, you're proud of your beliefs, hey no, that's great that you feel happiness as a result of your beliefs. But know that I don't need religion to make me happy too.
 

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noel_gallagher said:
Hmm, it's interesting that non-believers are against you?

Earlier today, as you may recall, one of the posters on this thread instantly retaliated to a comment of mine as if it'd been a personal attack on her/him. No. It was me stating my beliefs,
Can you just point out how exactly that was a personal attack? How did I retaliate personally? Honey, that was not personal. I assure you that. I was just stating the obvious.
 
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Kulazzi said:
Except I don't believe in the Bible. I believe in the Qu'ran. The Jews believe in the Torah. The Hindus believe in their scriptures.
Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
Kulazzi said:
good for you. If that's what you believe. I believe he exist. And I'm still alive.

THAT!
I did not mention you, or anything about you in either of the posts to which you replied to, as seen above. Yet you threw your views and beliefs at me, in a way, retaliating. Take it.
 

Kulazzi

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noel_gallagher said:
THAT!
I did not mention you, or anything about you in either of the posts to which you replied to, as seen above. Yet you threw your views and beliefs at me, in a way, retaliating. Take it.
I didn't mean to retaliate personally. I was just commenting on your posts. Sorry if you took it that way.
 
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Kulazzi said:
I didn't mean to retaliate personally. I was just commenting on your posts. Sorry if you took it that way.
Well I did take it that way.

And if that's the way you 'comment' on posts then maybe you should rethink your strategy cos this is a public forum and I'm not gonna be the last person to get up at you.


Whatever.
 

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noel_gallagher said:
Well I did take it that way.

And if that's the way you 'comment' on posts then maybe you should rethink your strategy cos this is a public forum and I'm not gonna be the last person to get up at you.


Whatever.
Maybe you interepreted it the wrong way. I didn't mean to attack you personally. And I can post however I want. If I get banned then I am banned.
 
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VonDavis

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noel_gallagher said:
I believe in evolution over creation
noel_gallager said:
LOL .... it's funny you said that, I wrote an essay about the exact topic only from my view as a christian as opposed to your view as a non-believer.
Do you have any religious friends?
 
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No, not unless the clouds open up and a giant voice booms from overhead, Monty Python style. I do however respect the right to believe and im not having a go at any1.

This statement is quite ironic considering im at a catholic school....
Any1 else in the same boat as me?
 

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Conveniently summarised by various sources, the good riddance post of Paley's watch:

----------------

VonDavis said:
When you look at a watch, you know that a watchmaker must have created the watch, when you look at a software program you know that there must also be a programmer....just as everything in this world has a creator, a composer, a maker or an author, it is suffice to say that some super intelligent omnipotent entity must have created the entire universe... this entity is what we call God. Hence the fundamental reason for God's existence is that He is the author, the Composer of everything.....the galaxies the Sun and everything that encompasses the heavens.

After all can u look at a building n say that it was created by itself? That a telescope was created by itself....just as everything has an author.....God is the author of the universe...
That argument was ripped to pieces by David Hume a long, long time ago my friend. He killed that off with the following criticisms:

1. It assumes too much
Inferring an effect - a cosmic design - from a cause - the beginning of the cosmos is basically assuming what the argument wants to prove. Order and regularity do not imply design, supernatural or otherwise.

2.The universe is unique
It cannot be inferred that there is anything like a designer behind it; where is the undesigned universe by which one can make comparisons?

3. Who designed the designer?
If functional complexity requires a designer, then the designer also needs a designer, because the designer must be at least as complex as the thing it designed. How else could it have designed the Universe?

4. The universe shows just as much evidence of imperfection and disorder
Seeking a cause of the order when such order only partially represents what the universe is like is asking for trouble. If an all-perfect, all-good designer made the universe, why is it so full of suffering for life forms? Even if one could infer a designer from the world, there is no reason to suppose that it is the Judaeo-Christian or Islamic god. In fact, there are reasons to suppose it is not.

The perceived design in nature is not necessarily intelligent by definition. Life is the result of the mindless design and repetition of natural selection. Order in the cosmos comes from natural regularity.

--------------

The argument is known as (Paley's) Watchmaker Argument. Here it is refuted again by another source, just in case you weren't convinced with that one.

The argument is wrong for several reasons:

1. Contradiction
The argument first assumes that a watch is different from nature, which is uncomplicated and random. It then states that since the universe is so complicated, complex, and ordered it too must have a creator. Thus, the argument gives the universe two incompatible qualities.

2. Shoemakers
What if you went further down the beach and found a shoe. Would you assume that a watchmaker made that shoe? Of course not, you would assume a shoemaker. Therefore, according to the analogy, created life must have a lifemaker, the sun a sunmaker and snowflakes a snowmaker. This implies that there are several creators in the world, responsible for all kinds of creation.

3. The watchmaker's father
Just like all watches have watchmakers, so do all watchmakers have fathers. Therefore, with the watchmaker anology, god has a father. Who is the father of god? and who is the father of the father? etc... This leads to an endless series, and the only way to end the series is to say that the original god just is without an origin and a cause. What then stops us from making the same assumption of the universe or Ultimate Reality? Occam's razor should even encourage us to do so!

4. Watches out of nothing?
The things used by the watchmaker to make watches already exists, but the theists claim that their god created things ex nihilo, from nothing. So the analogy is false here too.

5. False analogy, again
The watchmaker is a false analogy because it assumes that because two objects share one common quality, they must have another quality in common.

i. A watch is complex
ii. A watch has a watchmaker
iii. The universe is also complex
iv. Therefore the universe has a watchmaker

The last step is wrong, because it concludes something that is not supported by the criteria. It is best clearified by another example:

i. Leaves are complex cellulose structures
ii. Leaves grow on trees
iii. Money bills are also complex cellulose structures
iv. Therefore money grow on trees
 

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Did God not create humans? it's called a 'causal chain'.

so what? god created humans but if he were to direct how we would live and control our every movement then that makes us robots


Assuming that we have free-will and that an omniscient God exists...but wait, I make a contradiction. If an entity has knowledge of what WILL happen, it WILL happen, no matter what we do, hence free-will does not exist. Anyway, why must we have free-will?

ur going around in circles.....i said this before. god knows what we will do yet he does not make us do it....we do everything ourselves, yet he knows wat it will be...wat kind of a god will it be if he does not know tomorrow...and we must have free-will or else we have no point in life. we live like robots and then die. we must have free will so that we can live our lives the way we want and so we can then be judged on our actions...if we dont have free will then we are acting out what god has set out for us and therefore theres nothing we can be judged on coz everything we did, we did only coz god made us and this dosent make any sense


2. The problem of evil has been completely misunderstood here. There is evil in God's creation. The argument does not assert that this evil is created by humans, but that there exists evil in the creation of a benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient deity. It's simple!

god can rid the world of evil but why should he....there is evil in gods creation coz we choose to have evil....god could create a perfect utopia but then if we were all perfect- firstly we'd have no free will and secondly we'd have nothing to be judged on since our actions were forced upon us by god
 
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Kierkegaard

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EDIT: Ye Christians, I made my signature for you! It's a gift, use it freely.

ur going around in circles.....i said this before. god knows what we will do yet he does not make us do it....we do everything ourselves, yet he knows wat it will be...wat kind of a god will it be if he does not know tomorrow...and we must have free-will or else we have no point in life. we live like robots and then die. we must have free will so that we can live our lives the way we want and so we can then be judged on our actions...if we dont have free will then we are acting out what god has set out for us and therefore theres nothing we can be judged on coz everything we did, we did only coz god made us and this dosent make any sense
Your proof that we have free-will and at the same time God is omniscient, is that 'we must have free-will or else we have no point in life'. hmm...this assumes that there IS a point to life, which [I suppose] assumes that God exists--yet, you insist that I'm going in circles? My friend, you beg the question in every 'argument' that you give. It's like watching a hoola-hoop.

so what? god created humans but if he were to direct how we would live and control our every movement then that makes us robots
Bloody hell! Don't you get it? The assumption is that God exists and is omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent, thus God knew that we would use our 'free-will' to do evil, yet did nothing to stop that, despite God's supreme benevolence.

MoonlightSonata, let's say we give this one a miss. It's not worth the trouble.

P.S. Nice post. They'll learn that in Philosophy 101 (let's hope that they take Phil101). Are you a philosophy major, or have you just picked up some electives?
 
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VonDavis said:
noel_gallagher said:
I believe in evolution over creation
noel_gallager said:
LOL .... it's funny you said that, I wrote an essay about the exact topic only from my view as a christian as opposed to your view as a non-believer.
Do you have any religious friends?

Well, not really. you see out of my close friends, which is about 20, 9 of them are gay.
 

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What is Evilness?

One of the arguments used against the Divine Justice is the widespread evilness in our world. If God created all, why did He then create evilness as well?
But the truth is that evilness in reality does not exist and hence is not created. To fully grasp this an analogy can be made with the sun. The sun is the source of all light and within it no shades exist. The further away from the sun you go, the weaker the light becomes as well as more shadows appear. The shadows in themselves are not created, what really is meant by a shadow is a place where there is little or no light.
Only God is absolute perfect without any defects. The sun is the similitude of His perfect goodness, while His creation is all those objects distanced from perfection but who strive after it (such as man).
As they are not perfect and distanced from the Divine sun, their existence has some defects which are called shadows, where some or no sunrays reach. The essence of evilness is non-existence, a “shade”, where little or no light is present. Like the sun which lacks any shadow, any trace of evilness is absent in God’s light, but what is created is not absolutely perfect and has a shady side where evilness might appear

Why not a Perfect World?

One can ask oneself why God did not create world where even this relative evil was not present. To answer this one can define good and evil into five worlds which would be:

1/ A world consisting of only good where there is no evil, such as the angelic world.
2/ The entire world consists of only evil and you can not find any goodness (which is an impossibility,
as explained before, where evilness is non-existent and hence can not be created, just as the only light can be created while the shadow is a by-product.
3/ A world consisting of more evil then good, but this would not be logical and there would be no end for it.
4/ A world with as much good as evil, but this is not rational either and without any cause.
5/ A world with more goodness then evil in a way that the nature and the different elements interact with each other where some looks to be harmful and then everything reaches an end. Does the creation sound reasonable with this description? Does God have to ignore a lot of good for the lack of little evil or provide lots of good despite a little evil? Certainly, if God fails to create lots of good for the lack of little evil, the third theory would come true which is not reasonable?
Because, to ignore lots of good is the same as ignoring lots of evil; and to ignore little evil is he same as ignoring little good. And as has been said before it isn’t reasonable to accept extreme goodness or evilness.
Therefore the only logical is a world with lots of good and little evil.

edit: i took this from another forum....
 
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