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Economy vs Over-population (1 Viewer)

Generator

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codereder said:
ridiculous.
It's no more ridiculous than your suggestions that we could just extract more water and generate more electricity without any thought as to the consequences and the needs of the both those living today and those who are still to come (intra- and inter-generational equity).

Edit: As I said, I consider the article's predictions to be quite dire, but that doesn't change the fact that its underlying message, that we aren't living sustainably/that our land can only take so much, is one that should be taken on board by all.
 
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insert-username

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electric methods
Electric methods?

And what the hell does higher population got to do with increase temperatures??? Ok pollution is a possibility, but the electric methods would take care of that.
Did you even read the article? It said higher temperature = more strain on agriculture = more difficulties in feeding the population and exporting. Which makes sense, as a higher temperature would assumingly lead to less rain.

Australias farming isnt productive. We should be focusing on technological areas anyway, and services.
Australia's farmers are among the most efficient in the world. Oh, and people still have to eat, you know.

ridiculous.
In what way?


I_F
 
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"We must ‘power-down’: move away from a carbon economy, travel less, grow food locally, have fewer children. We may even have to contemplate a non-coercive one-child policy for a couple of generations."


Because i believe we can sustain a higher population. Look at Germany, Japan, US. Its possible to support alot of people.
And fewer children is defintly not the answer!!! The population is getting old as it is. And why should we travel less, and lower our standard of living for no reason??

Comon, what percentage of food we eat is made in Australia anyway?? If temps go up, farmers produce less, as if its gonna effect wat we eat in the least way.
 

Generator

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codereder said:
Because i believe we can sustain a higher population. Look at Germany, Japan, US. Its possible to support alot of people.
And fewer children is defintly not the answer!!! The population is getting old as it is. And why should we travel less, and lower our standard of living for no reason??

Comon, what percentage of food we eat is made in Australia anyway?? If temps go up, farmers produce less, as if its gonna effect wat we eat in the least way.
...

What are you trying to achieve by ignoring the fact that our land can only take so much if the population is to be sustained at a high standard of living? For the record, this is Australia, not the US or Western Europe - don't compare completely different environmental settings (edit: and different patterns of consumption) on the assumption that each is capable of carrying a similar load in terms of human settlements.

Please, stop now, because you are only making yourself appear to be more of a fool with each passing post. If you aren't willing to stop, then at least consider the notion that we are constrained by the land and its climate and that at this stage we cannot just divorce ourselves from the consequences of our actions.
 
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Generator said:
...

What are you trying to achieve by ignoring the fact that our land can only take so much if the population is to be sustained at a high standard of living? For the record, this is Australia, not the US or Western Europe - don't compare completely different environmental settings (edit: and different patterns of consumption) on the assumption that each is capable of carrying a similar load in terms of human settlements.

Please, stop now, because you are only making yourself appear to be more of a fool with each passing post. If you aren't willing to stop, then at least consider the notion that we are constrained by the land and its climate and that at this stage we cannot just divorce ourselves from the consequences of our actions.
Ok then explain it to me. Why cant this land support a high population but european and US can? Isnt Australia rich in natural resources? And we have plenty of coast unlike european countries.
 

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codereder said:
Ok then explain it to me. Why cant this land support a high population but european and US can? Isnt Australia rich in natural resources? And we have plenty of coast unlike european countries.
haven't you ever watched documentries on Australia..... this is the harshest continent no earth (barring antarctica).. there is a very good reason we can not hold much more population, you can not just put cities in 90% of Australia's environment, nothing would last.
the thing about the US and UK is that they have a stable climate (relatively) throughout their countries that is liveable. go 200 k's west of Sydney and you'll begin to see what you'll see till you get to the other side of the country and it isn't a very liveable scene.
Yes we do have a very large coast but you also have to think about the wet season that makes large cities VERY impractical in the northern half of the country where connection with the rest of the world would be impossible for 5 months of the year. Not going to happen.
Then you get to the southern half of our countries coastline, that is already packed with cities to the extent that there is a limit to how much of our beautiful countries coastline we can destroy for more people.
I think you need to look at the bigger picture and not just say "if the us and uk can fill themselves up then why cant we".. we live in a harsh place and if you have never taken the time to see our country then that is your fault for living in a box and not understanding WHY we have 2ppl / square kilometre.. or ranked 191st in the list of population.
Resources are not going to last forever for the rest of the world and there is absolutely a limit to just how much of our species this world can hold, i mean we've already fucked how much of the environment? the more of us the worse it is going to get for the other species and bare in mind we have NO special right that sets us apart from an ant or a fish, and soon we're going to have to look at the bigger picture (like you will to) that there is only so much we can take from our planet and so many people can be here.
 

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Pink_Butterfly said:
The government wants us to have more kids because the population is getting older - they want to bring the population to a young age.

All we need to do - is die younger!!!
The only reason the government cares about the population getting older is because they have to pay aged pensions at the moment, and there aren't enough young people to do it. There are two possible solutions:
1. Make more babies. This is the first solution you'd think of, but it's probably not the best because those babies will grow old too, and we'll have the same problem all over again in 50-60 years, eventually leading to severe overpopulation.
2. Make future elderly provide for themselves by making it clear that the aged pension will not exist in the future unless these people have had singificant hardship finding work (for example if they're disabled).
 

withoutaface

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codereder said:
Ok then explain it to me. Why cant this land support a high population but european and US can? Isnt Australia rich in natural resources? And we have plenty of coast unlike european countries.
The problem isn't that we'll overpopulate any time soon, but that your solution pepetuates the problem in that once the young grow old they'll need even more young to provide for them if we keep the current system, and eventually we'll overpopulate.
 

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Ok then explain it to me. Why cant this land support a high population but european and US can?
Because this land is not the US or Europe. Ever wonder why there aren't 50 million people living in the Sahara? Or in Antarctica? Or in Greenland? They have plenty of coastline too, you know. What's wrong with living there?


I_F
 
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what has the world populartion been like. anyone know the population in the
14th century?


ok i found this. http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html

so the problem with high population is damaging the earth, using resources. With these high populations in the future, we can develop technologies so we have renewable resources.
 
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so the problem with high population is damaging the earth, using resources. With these high populations in the future, we can develop technologies so we have renewable resources.
Please tell me you don't truly believe that. More people does not equal better ideas/technology. The only thing more people is assured of doing is eating their way through the world's resources that much bloody faster. The whole point of RENEWABLE resources is that they can be REPLACEABLE, which is that much harder when you have MORE PEOPLE TO FEED.


I_F
 
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insert-username said:
Please tell me you don't truly believe that. More people does not equal better ideas/technology. The only thing more people is assured of doing is eating their way through the world's resources that much bloody faster. The whole point of RENEWABLE resources is that they can be REPLACEABLE, which is that much harder when you have MORE PEOPLE TO FEED.


I_F
no i didnt mean higher population leads to better technologies. I mean in the future, when we have these high populations, we should also have better technologies. Better technologies mean we can support more people. Im not saying i want a higher global population, but its gonna happen either way. Wat things can we do about it? Well wood can be kept sustainanable, and electricity. Food is renewable.
 

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But why accelerate population growth when it's completely unnecessary?
 

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Right, a huge population is not the best idea; I would direct your attention to the living standards of China and India. hina might have a strong economy, but think of the average worker living in poverty earning a measely wage a day.
Further, the US, which some idiots, even in government, seem to think is a country to aspire to is, all things considered, behind Australia. In terms of economy the US outstrips us, but so be it. They have classes within their society that we don't have (but are beginning to emergev - unfortunately). Their are poverty traps in the US, places where people are doomed to work the rest of their lives in dead end jobs for a few dollars an hour like their parents before them. And there isn't a way they can get out of it. (A good documentary on this was the one buy the Supersize me guy).
America's agricultural set up is different to ours. Their methods involving livestock in some states are illegal over here, for good reason.
We cannot be compared to Europe in any plausible way; they are a cold, wet climate where as we are a hot, arid climate.
Australia, in terms of agriculture, could be easily self sufficient. Yet few companies are willing to pay the price to get the best produce available, prefering instead to go for cheap imports that detract from the Australian economy and undermine the workers of this country. Most water iceblocks are made in the Yangtzee (maybe incorrect spelling, but the English translation is "Yellow") river in China; the most poluted river in the world. Any meat imported to this country has not undergone the rigid health checks that Australian meat must undergo; the same is of course true for any vegetable produce.
Look what happened to our textile industry!
And, our employment may be high, but in a few years, at this rate, we'll be completely reliant upon other countries exports, unable to take care of ourselves. And it is worth noting that the mining industry is a big employer in Australia, but once we run out of coal (not too far from now) then the unemployment levels will skyrocket.
Encouraging the migrants out of Sydney and Melbourne is a good idea, but you can only send enough as is feasible, enough as can be supported by the available resources. Yesterday 14,000 people became citizens (how many had just migrated I'm not aware of), at that rate our infrastructure cannot sustain itself. They may add to the economy, theoretically, but practically?
The way this country is heading is towards services (can't remember the technical term). Everyone is going to be a marketer, but few are going to be doing the actual producing.
Being a technologically based country is stupid. We cannot keep up with Japan, quite simply. And we shouldn't have to. We should be playing our strength, while Japan plays it's strengths. They have no room for agriculture and thus have to turn to other avenues for employment. They are actually dependent upon the imports from other countries, such as us.
One of the biggest problems in this country is water. It is not only Sydney that suffers water shortages (despite what the media leads you to believe). This country seems to have a regular cycle of droughts, and as the average yearly temperature seems to be rising (global warming being the cause or not), this is only going to become worse.
By the way, the world's current population is 6 billion, theoretically the maximum that this planet can sustian is 9 billion, but I don't want to put it to the test.

P.S. Surplus may not be good economically, but humanely I can think of millions of starving Africans who would welcome our surplus. They can't afford it anyway, so it's not like we'll be lowering the price.

P.P.S. Wheat is a thirsty crop, hence the row over irrigation (probably didn't make the Sydney news). But it is a crop Australia is known for. I don't know anything about Oranges though.
 

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I wasn't actually saying that wheat was twice as easy to grow as oranges, it was a hypothetical example to illustrate a point.
 

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codereder said:
no i didnt mean higher population leads to better technologies. I mean in the future, when we have these high populations, we should also have better technologies. Better technologies mean we can support more people. Im not saying i want a higher global population, but its gonna happen either way. Wat things can we do about it? Well wood can be kept sustainanable, and electricity. Food is renewable.
So your theory is rapidly increase population now and just hope that new technology comes about to combat the problem?
 
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No, im not in support of purposly increasing the population. What im saying now is, its gonna happen even though we dont want it. And im suggesting ways to indicate we may be able to cope with it, and we need to develop new technologies so we can, because its gonna happen.
 

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codereder said:
No, im not in support of purposly increasing the population. What im saying now is, its gonna happen even though we dont want it. And im suggesting ways to indicate we may be able to cope with it, and we need to develop new technologies so we can, because its gonna happen.
Umm, no you weren't:

Australia's economy can improve greatly with a larger population. 20 million!!! thats nothing. Look at all this land we have. Its time we start creating more capital cities. How about one in the desert like las vegas? Higher population, our economic capacity increases, demand increases, supply increases, economic activity increases, more jobs and higher standard of living.
We can also produce more for the the rest of the world, more exports, helping the CAD. Over population doesnt need to be a problem. We have plenty of coast for people to live and for new cities to grow.

I_F
 

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It's not necssary production, GDP, money whatever... It's more basic than that. Resources. Limited resources, unlimited wants, that's the very core of economics. Someone always have to loose out - do you think the world can support itself if everyone in China consumed the same amount as USA?

It would be very naive to believe that nations would start inventing technologies for us to cope better, its human nature - "just do it now, who the fuck cares about its consequences in the future?" Rise of neo-liberalism and market ideologies will probably be another nail in the coffin.

My solution - wipe off 6 billion people. Who's first, I leave that up to you.
 

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