English Standard/Advanced (2 Viewers)

[glitterfairy]

Alright now when we go BACK to reality. You're wrong.
Advanced English makes better writers, who can communicate their ideas more effectively. Advanced english has more homework, more class assignments... among other things which end up meaning students who take advanced english are better at interpreting and responding to questions based on their understanding.

Whilst I agree that advanced english would have a much higher chance of "promoting" better writers, I feel that going as far to say that they will be better interpreters/responders full stop is a bit unjustified. Certainly they would probably do better in WRITTEN assessments where their personal opinion is required, however this is by no means a "you will have no problems in life please pass GO and collect $200" card.

The written, spoken and "physically performed" mediums, whilst all used for basically the same purpose, are totally different and proficiency in one does NOT guarentee proficiency in another (if there are any psych students here... feel free to back me up). Additionally there are multiple "sub-genres" (for want of a better word) that require different sorts of "understanding/responding"... for example, I am a 4U student who frequently got told off in Adv Eng (and sociology) for not having a "formal" register. After much essay practice - sort of Eng Adv style - I just got told off in a recent Creative Writing tute because a part of my piece was too "formalised" and not appropriate to my story setting.

So it can help you, or screw you over depending on what you're doing. I don't think it's wise to put too much faith in ANY HSC subject

 

[the real mac]

Whilst I agree that advanced english would have a much higher chance of "promoting" better writers, I feel that going as far to say that they will be better interpreters/responders full stop is a bit unjustified. Certainly they would probably do better in WRITTEN assessments where their personal opinion is required, however this is by no means a "you will have no problems in life please pass GO and collect $200" card.

The written, spoken and "physically performed" mediums, whilst all used for basically the same purpose, are totally different and proficiency in one does NOT guarentee proficiency in another (if there are any psych students here... feel free to back me up). Additionally there are multiple "sub-genres" (for want of a better word) that require different sorts of "understanding/responding"... for example, I am a 4U student who frequently got told off in Adv Eng (and sociology) for not having a "formal" register. After much essay practice - sort of Eng Adv style - I just got told off in a recent Creative Writing tute because a part of my piece was too "formalised" and not appropriate to my story setting.

So it can help you, or screw you over depending on what you're doing. I don't think it's wise to put too much faith in ANY HSC subject

hey what can you do if you suck at english standard and when you try focus someone wont shut up and the teacher does nothing and don't even care about you

 

[sam04u]

You video-tape one lesson of your english class, the whole period and send it to the "district super-intendent". He'll come down there and make an ass of the principal and the whole faculty. They'll put TOUGH pressure on the school, and you will remain anonymous. (teachers work harder when there is a risk of losing their job.. much like students work hard during the hsc.)

Thank me for my advices you petty imbecilic exuses for beings!
ahahahha

 

[A l]

Advanced English makes better writers, who can communicate their ideas more effectively. Advanced english has more homework, more class assignments... among other things which end up meaning students who take advanced english are better at interpreting and responding to questions based on their understanding.

There you go again making an assumption or generalisation without any evidence to justify your claims. First of all, simply selecting the English (Advanced) course does NOT guarantee that you will become a better writer and can communicate your ideas more effectively than if you were to select English (Standard). In fact there are many people who crack under the pressure of the course. I'm pretty sure you've seen threads regarding students hating the course and struggling in it. People can be just as talented in writing and communicating in the English (Standard) course. In fact, I know some good English teachers who studied the English (Standard) equivalent in their years of the HSC.
Secondly, the English (Advanced) course was NOT designed to improve writing and communication skills. The focus of the English (Advanced) course is basically to emphasise on how meaning in texts can be shaped by contexts or different/changing contexts according to syllabus. If you've been around these forums for a while then you may have come across threads that state how ridiculous the English (Advanced) course is due to the fact that there is an emphasis on the appreciation of literature under various ideas and issues rather than essential communication skills required in tertiary study and the workplace. Most people do not realise that the main difference between the English (Standard) and the English (Advanced) course is not the difficulty, but rather the way that each course approaches texts and ideas differently. English (Advanced) focuses on the contextual influences of a text while English (Standard) focuses on the effectiveness of language/communication of ideas and issues in texts.
Thirdly, although English (Advanced) may give more homework and assignments than English (Standard), it does not mean that it is beneficial to writing and communication skills. More than likely it is just giving further labour for the students who do not appreciate the course. In reality many dislike the English (Advanced) course. Again, if you've been searching this forum, you'll find that more people prefer English Extension courses than the 2 unit courses which suggests that there is a flaw in the course. How can these people be better writers if they are not interested in the course? I know many students in my school who struggle in understanding and appreciating the English (Advanced) course and resorted to memorising compositions which does not reflect on any improvement in analytical interpretation, writing and communication skills.

 

[Trebla]

Hey man I'm doing English Standard and I kicked practically 80%-90% of all the English Advanced people's asses at my school. Sorry if I sound a bit up myself but the fact is that myself and many of my peers are living proof that English Standard people can be better communicators and writers than most of the English Advanced people.
In the Area of Study, a lot of us killed the average achieved by the English Advanced people, and by this I mean by beating it by more than 10%!!! Also, in the NSW writing competition last year, lots of us people doing English Standard got high distinctions and this is solid proof that we're better than a lot of the English Advanced people because we're talking about performance relative to the whole state!!! Also, that girl who topped English Standard last year is studying LAW at university. That's right, LAW!!!!!! Everyone knows that law is a rigorous area of study and it requires very good english skills especially in writing, arguing, persuading and communicating. Who gives a shit if she's doing standard? As long as she has the superior skills of communication and writing (remember that a band 6 in standard requires much more skill than getting a band 6 in advanced) as shown in her HSC performance, she can potentially ace law.
Do not think that all people doing English Standard are illiterate dumbasses because a lot of us are just as good (if not better) than the English Advanced people. There is one important piece of advice that I follow and I think a lot of people here should do the same: DO NOT ASSUME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sam04u]

Idiot... i do standard english... and im probably the equivalent if not better then the average advanced student at comprehending and analysing texts and relationships between texts.

Doing advanced english DOES make peopel better writers. They can right "extended" responses. The average advanced student can do 3-4 pages of writing... giving them more attempts at the marks needed for the question. (im not saying the quality isn't the same... but more quantity means more chances at getting the marks....)

Therefore... an advanced student can BETTER describe what they want to say (in general, JUST because they took advanced and were exposed to greater analytical skills and forced to respond to things they ahve little understanding on with the expectation of producing 2 pages of writing?)

THEREFORE a student who takes advanced can achieve HIGHER marks in responses to questiosn with the same UNDERSTANDING because they can describe it better.

(no time for grammar sorry)

 

[Trebla]

Doing advanced english DOES make peopel better writers. They can right "extended" responses. The average advanced student can do 3-4 pages of writing... giving them more attempts at the marks needed for the question. (im not saying the quality isn't the same... but more quantity means more chances at getting the marks....)

You're the idiot here. You're assuming!!! DO NOT ASSUME!!! Who says that an English Standard student can't do the same? Also, if you bite off more than you can chew with additional attempts you can actually LOSE marks.

Therefore... an advanced student can BETTER describe what they want to say (in general, JUST because they took advanced and were exposed to greater analytical skills and forced to respond to things they ahve little understanding on with the expectation of producing 2 pages of writing?)

Not true. High expectations is not always a good thing. Heaps of people crack under the pressure and cannot write the quality response that they're expected to write. Those who can't cope are not given the chance to show their potential while they could have comfortably given their writing some time to develop in standard.

 

[A l]

Doing advanced english DOES make peopel better writers. They can right "extended" responses. The average advanced student can do 3-4 pages of writing... giving them more attempts at the marks needed for the question. (im not saying the quality isn't the same... but more quantity means more chances at getting the marks....)

There you go AGAIN making generalisations without any real evidence. An English (Standard) student can do the same thing without many problems. Look at the mid-range and high-range responses and especially the exemplars published by the Board of Studies for English (Standard), they go into as much detail as the average English (Advanced) student. Also, the marking criteria set out for extended responses for both English (Standard) and English (Advanced) look at the response as a WHOLE. Writing additional material does not necessarily mean "more chances at getting the marks" because components of a response are not looked at individually. As long as the response answers the question effectively then additional material is not required because it has the risk of being sidetracked to irrelvance by not answering the question and it can waste time.

Therefore... an advanced student can BETTER describe what they want to say (in general, JUST because they took advanced and were exposed to greater analytical skills and forced to respond to things they ahve little understanding on with the expectation of producing 2 pages of writing?)

What exactly makes an English (Advanced) student "BETTER describe what they want to say"? Who says that an English (Standard) student can't do the same if not better? Those skills are mentioned in the both syllabuses. Not everybody actually grasps the concepts and expectations required in the English (Advanced) course so they do NOT automatically become "better" writers. You say the people who take English (Advanced) are exposed to "greater" analytical skills and are forced to repsond to things they have little understanding on. Firstly, if someone does not comprehend the approach to texts studied in the English (Advanced) course, how can they write analytically and "better" describe something they have barely grasped? Writing about something that one is not interested in or has little understanding of, is detrimental to his or her writing skills and hence that person cannot express the ideas as clearly and descriptively as required. Therefore by simply doing the English (Advanced) course, and getting all that "exposure" does not mean that the student can describe ideas better, hence simply doing English (Advanced) does NOT make a student a better writer. If that person decided to take English (Standard) instead, he or she will have the opportunity to grasp the concepts in the course because the approach to the texts is more conventional. Therefore he or she can clearly express ideas more descriptively because he or she understands the content being written. It is all about how well you understand the course. If you cannot understand the concepts being taught then expressing these concepts analytically and descriptively is almost impossible.

 

[sam04u]

OMG... I AM NOT generalising!

I never said a student who does advanced is going to be BETTER then a student who does standard english.
Some students are just gifted... probably you're an example of one of these people. Then again.... these people could do just as good without even doing english.

But then there are regular people... who can benefit greatly from taking the advanced english course. Also.. the idea about being sidetracked and losing marks? Is untrue.
A hsc marker has to employ "positive marking" so as long as all the components of the question have been answered eg;(all requirements met) then the student will get the marks for them, regardless of what else was written.

Evidence? Of what?
Im telling you from people i've seen... first hand experience.
So if two identical students(a slightly above average student) studied both standard english and advanced english respectively.
The student who chose advanced english would probably get 65-70 and the student who studied standard about 70-75.

Then comes in the other subjects.... the student who did advanced english did more writing (usually.. depends on the teacher) and more class assignments, homework, essays (usually) therefore having more experience at expressing ideas through language.
(In subjects like bilogy and chemistry, a short answer isn't guranteed marks, whereas a longer one with more composure would likely give a higher mark).

I never said a student will ace tests if they take advanced... i said they could probably squeeze in 8-9 extra PERCENT (which could be 3-4 marks).

So therefore... 8-9% in 3 subjects (considering that maths has no relevance to understanding english) with identical english marks will be beneficial to the student and not detrimental.

I used S/A/M and it predicted a difference of about 15 uai points. With the marks i stated in the start.

(Therefore, USUALLY taking advanced english is good for your uai because you have more composure in answering questions) I cant account for every smart person who takes english... or those feel stupid in advanced and do worse... im just saying GENERALLY... without making inane generalisations... the majority of statistics are with me on this one.

 

[A l]

You said:

Doing advanced english DOES make peopel better writers. They can right "extended" responses. The average advanced student can do 3-4 pages of writing... giving them more attempts at the marks needed for the question. (im not saying the quality isn't the same... but more quantity means more chances at getting the marks....)

Therefore... an advanced student can BETTER describe what they want to say (in general, JUST because they took advanced and were exposed to greater analytical skills and forced to respond to things they ahve little understanding on with the expectation of producing 2 pages of writing?)[/B]
THEREFORE a student who takes advanced can achieve HIGHER marks in responses to questiosn with the same UNDERSTANDING because they can describe it better.

Advanced English makes better writers, who can communicate their ideas more effectively. Advanced english has more homework, more class assignments... among other things which end up meaning students who take advanced english are better at interpreting and responding to questions based on their understanding.

However, you now say:

I never said a student who does advanced is going to be BETTER then a student who does standard english.

You certainly implied it. With the use of the word 'better', there must have been a comparison and you made that comparison between students taking English (Advanced) and English (Standard).

Also.. the idea about being sidetracked and losing marks? Is untrue.

It is true. What I meant by the term "losing marks" means that you won't gain as many marks (a lot of HSC markers use this term and yes, it can be confusing). Remember that the response is viewed as whole, not in components. If there is extra irrevelant information written in, the response as a WHOLE is affected. The quality of the ENTIRE response would be lowered with this extra information, thus a lower mark would be given.

A hsc marker has to employ "positive marking" so as long as all the components of the question have been answered eg;(all requirements met) then the student will get the marks for them, regardless of what else was written.

Writing more than required (that you claim an average English (Advanced) student usually does) can be timewasting.

But then there are regular people... who can benefit greatly from taking the advanced english course.

A "regular" person will only benefit if he or she is interested in the course. Unfortunately, a large number of people are NOT that interested in appreciating the way the course approaches texts. These include your "regular" people.

So therefore... 8-9% in 3 subjects (considering that maths has no relevance to understanding english) with identical english marks will be beneficial to the student and not detrimental.

A student taking English (Advanced) usually has those extra tasks in order to UNDERSTAND the course content in more depth and it generally more difficult to express ideas. It does not necessarily give them more experience at expressing ideas through language. Remember that the texts are approached in English (Advanced) by the way that contexts of the responder and the composer can influence different meanings and responses to a text. This part of the course content is unique to the English (Advanced) course. The rest of the course including the expression of ideas through language is also in the English (Standard) course.

Then comes in the other subjects.... the student who did advanced english did more writing (usually.. depends on the teacher) and more class assignments, homework, essays (usually) therefore having more experience at expressing ideas through language.

(Therefore, USUALLY taking advanced english is good for your uai because you have more composure in answering questions) I cant account for every smart person who takes english... or those feel stupid in advanced and do worse... im just saying GENERALLY... without making inane generalisations... the majority of statistics are with me on this one.

That's why you should be careful in what you say. Your lack of low modality in your language beforehand suggests that what you had said was true for all cases thus I had to argue that it was not. However, the link you described between English (Advanced) and other subjects is not true to that extent.
Also, what the hell were you doing up early at 4am?

 

[sam04u]

Well i agree with you on that one... it is a generalisation... but you know when i said...
"an advanced student" i didn't mean one guy...

i meant 70,000/70,000
So that it was one student representing the majority of them...

However "generally"... a student would benefit from taking advanced english... perhaps not in english... (which i specified) but in other subjects.. (which i specified)

Do you agree?
(Or perhaps it could be that the students who choose advanced are naturally more interested...)

Still... the intense exposure and feeling the presence of english... would probably lower your mark in english but definately benefit you in some way... wheter it just be vocabulary... which would help in explaining...


EITHER way... i suggest taking english advanced if your only worry is the way [English Scales - Compared to English (Advanced) which was the initial question]

 

[A l]

i meant 70,000/70,000

Actually, the candidature every year for English (Advanced) is a lot less than 70,000. It is usually just under half of that number. I doubt that there's even that many people attempting the HSC every year.
It would be reasonable to say that it is not the English (Advanced) course itself that helps in other subjects. It is more than likely that the academic rigour and high expectations teachers often use to associate with the course that is the main factor. However, if this level of academic rigour and expectation were reversed between the English (Standard) course and the English (Advanced) course (which oddly enough happens in some schools because those teachers expect independent study from English (Advanced) students while they help and guide the English (Standard) students), the result would be very different. Therfore it would be the expectations, effort and academic rigour that MAY help in other subjects. It is not the course itself.

 

[punjabijatt22]

wat up u all choose standard has it is much easier

 

[flowergrl]

well, it depends on how well the state goes really...

if the average of the state is... say 59%, you'll probably be pulled up to say... 79???

That's what my teachers say, but really, it's up to you to decide if you think its good enough.

In my opinion, just get a whole lot of practice papers and guides, memorize them and spew them out in the exam.

nothing's too hard to get if you focus!

 

[Jen_Z]

To be honest I was told repeatedly last year that advanced english ranked higher than standard but the truth is it doesn't what matters is that u do well in the subject 4 e.g. I did standard and got a UAI in the 80's, I'm not telling you that if u get 60 in standard there will be no difference you have to study and try your best to get high marks in either levels.