Exam Results - Implications (2 Viewers)

[MoonlightSonata]

Is it true that if you hold a D average throughout your studies, it will only be enough to get you an interview at a big law firm during your penultimate year? I have heard that results only go so far... and does good marks give you an automatic advantage in the selection process or are extra-curricular and other factors be more important?

Good marks are by far the most important factor in getting an interview. That is not to say extra-curricular activities are not also attractive to employers. But basically you need the marks to get your foot in the door. A distinction average for law subjects is typically decent enough marks-wise. Though of course the employer will also look at your experiences, responsibilities and other achievements.

I'm not sure how they compare candidates once you get an interview, but I would image that your marks most likely diminish in importance somewhat after that stage.

The way I look at it, If I was choosing from a heap of graduates with Distinction or High Distinction averages, and a credit average student with three or four seasonal/vacation clerkships (with good references/referees) up his sleeve and a strong extra curricular activities list, I would by far prefer the latter. That tends to indicate the good mix of social skills and experience that I would be looking for. That's just me though.

In choosing students to interview, extra-curricular activities are of course attractive to employers, though marks are by far the primary focus. For the top 6 large Australian commercial law firms, a credit-average student is unlikely to receive an offer for a clerkship interview. Mid-sized and smaller firms are of course different.

It should be noted that the summer clerkship scheme in NSW prevents you doing more than one clerkship over your university degree. That said, people do break this rule (I know of some who have done more than one clerkship) because no-one seems to enforce it.

 

[melsc]

Meh, I have never recieved a WAM, but then again UWS has a weird grading system.

I am not sure how it goes at other unis but one of my tutors told me that UWS loves a bell curve and there must be so many P's, C's D's HD's etc each one less than the one prior. I guess I will have to wait and see if can finally get a D it is true what you say moonlight it is a hell of a lot harder than I thought.

 

[wheredanton]

Meh, I have never recieved a WAM, but then again UWS has a weird grading system.

I am not sure how it goes at other unis but one of my tutors told me that UWS loves a bell curve and there must be so many P's, C's D's HD's etc each one less than the one prior. I guess I will have to wait and see if can finally get a D it is true what you say moonlight it is a hell of a lot harder than I thought.

All uni's bell curve.

Eh, 68's a credit. You guys are treating it as if it's the plague. Am I missing something?

Based on what I saw this year people with WAMs below 70 (at unsw) struggle to even get interviews. A D average or a very high credit average are required for you to be considered at a top tier firm. The mid tier then fight over who is left.

As for the original poster. It's much better for your marks to trend upwards rather than to trend towards as you progress through your degree. Don't be too deterred, 68 isn't great but it isn't disastrous and you have plenty of time to improve.

For the average person it is not easy to get distinctions, but if you study regularly, pay attention, keep up to date with notes and prepare properly, distinctions will generally be the result.

If you do all those things it's almost certain you get a D. However we all know this isn't a perfect world

Passes are certainly not the norm, and to most law students a pass is akin to a fail.

From what I have learn passess for a major law subject rule you out for a top tier unless you can offer a good explanation and your pass is balanced out by many good grades.

 

[MaryJane]

Meh, I have never recieved a WAM, but then again UWS has a weird grading system.

Mac uses GPA too, generally; WAM is used in honours selection. The WAM is more exact. The GPA is a much simpler calculation, and the variance in individual marks doesnt matter as much when it comes to transferring degrees.

And, as wheredanton says, every uni loves a bell curve.

GO STATISTICS!!

 

[Summer Rain]

Hi Everyone

For the average person it is not easy to get distinctions, but if you study regularly, pay attention, keep up to date with notes and prepare properly, distinctions will generally be the result.

Getting a distinction is not easy, I agree there is alot of work involved. I didn't suggest otherwise.

Passes are certainly not the norm, and to most law students a pass is akin to a fail.

I agree, I don't know why Prue Vines said that.

About 20-25% get distinctions, and 5% High Distinctions, but it varies and depends on the subject.

From my experience and according to the bell curve this is also accurate (however it may vary as you said by a few percentages). However, 20-25% allocation to distinctions is a fairly big percentage; I think that achieving a distinction average is an achievable goal.

Well, marks are extremely important for commercial career prospects in a big law firm. That isn't to say marks are the only thing worth worrying about, but they are extremely important.

Sad but true.

I wish I could go back in time and emphasise to myself just how important!

I am sure Moonlight you will be offered a clerkship at a big law firm if you have not already received received an offer What year are you in?

 

[Summer Rain]

lol, haven't quite worked out how to write underneath someone else quotes without being in their quote!

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I am sure Moonlight you will be offered a clerkship at a big law firm if you have not already received received an offer What year are you in?

I would prefer not to be too specific about my employment, but I will say that half way through this year I applied for the top 6:

• Mallesons Stephen Jaques
• Allens Arthur Robinson
• Freehills
• Clayton Utz
• Minter Ellison
• Blake Dawson Waldron

and received interviews for 3 of them -- but no offers I'm afraid!

 

[BillytheFIsh]

Good marks are by far the most important factor in getting an interview.

MS: Good marks are *important* in getting an interview, but I wouldn't say they are "by far the most important".

You are right - they will get your foot in the door, but they don't do much more than that and if you don't have a good application, extra curricular activities etc etc, you can have a 6.9 GPA and not get an interview at any of the top tiers.

I've mentioned this before, but once you get to the interview stage, marks count for "less than 25%" of how they rate you overall (from the mouth of a hiring lawyer at one of top 5 law firms).

The other thing is that despite what some people have said, passes are usual for most law students. People who contribute to this board are, by virtue of the fact that they are contributing to this board in their spare time, more likely to consider a 4 a failure. Because of that - they are also more likely to hang around with like-minded people. So don't be so concerned - getting passes is perfectly normal - you're not going to be driven out of a law firm with a stick just because you have a few of them on your acedemic transcript.

 

[Frigid]

So don't be so concerned - getting passes is perfectly normal - you're not going to be driven out of a law firm with a stick just because you have a few of them on your acedemic transcript.

but billy, most of us have always been driven by excellence. and excellence, for alot of the bigger (international) firms i know, means at least a 2:1, if not a first. acknowledging a pass as 'normal' will not lead to such a final result. if people want an easier access to interviews i would advise against being complacent with one's marks.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

MS: Good marks are *important* in getting an interview, but I wouldn't say they are "by far the most important".

You are right - they will get your foot in the door, but they don't do much more than that and if you don't have a good application, extra curricular activities etc etc, you can have a 6.9 GPA and not get an interview at any of the top tiers.

At least in terms of the top law firms, I respectfully adhere to a somewhat different perspective. I think marks are their top priority. (Baring in mind I am talking about receiving an interview offer, not receiving an actual offer. I think you are correct that the importance of marks radically diminishes at the interview stage.)

True, they may not be a sufficient condition, but that does not mean that they are not a necessary condition. To what extent or to what level substandard marks can be alleviated by extra-curricular activities and experience is a question of degree, but I would think there is a general baseline level that they would typically avoid going below.

The other thing is that despite what some people have said, passes are usual for most law students. People who contribute to this board are, by virtue of the fact that they are contributing to this board in their spare time, more likely to consider a 4 a failure. Because of that - they are also more likely to hang around with like-minded people.

It may be different for other institutions, but with regards to UNSW, that is actually not the case. I have, from time to time, examined the distribution of marks for law students. In every law course the majority of students (~40%) obtain Credits. The next highest proportion is Distinctions (~20-25%). Then comes Passes and High Distinctions, not infrequently with Passes being the lowest proportion. I do have an actual UNSW document listing the law student grade distributions for Semester 1 of 2006 which I'd like to post here, but it is 1.3mb and these forums don't allow such file sizes.

 

[Frigid]

as to the above... oHhHhhhhhh:

Council of Australian Law Deanshttp://www.cald.asn.au

grade distributions document (pdf)

honours policyhttp://www.cald.asn.au/docs/honours.pdf (pdf).

 

[Summer Rain]

I would prefer not to be too specific about my employment, but I will say that half way through this year I applied for the top 6:

• Mallesons Stephen Jaques
• Allens Arthur Robinson
• Freehills
• Clayton Utz
• Minter Ellison
• Blake Dawson Waldron

and received interviews for 3 of them -- but no offers I'm afraid!

That sux. I am not sure why you missed out. If you didn't get an offer, the competition must be extremely tough. I wouldn't worry though. There are other ways to get into the big 6 rather than through a summer clerkship. I know one lawyer at Minter Ellison that worked at mid sized law firm for 2 years then tranferred to Minter Ellison.

I personally have little desire to work for a big law firm though nor am I keen on working for a small suburban conveyancing practice (which I have done as a pa/secretary) and the work is so boring I would rather slit my wrists then work in a place like that again (sorry to be so dramatic). But my desire to work for a big law firm may change because 1-2 years experience at a top law firm is valuable not to mention a chance to pay my hecs debt.

 

[Summer Rain]

MS:

The other thing is that despite what some people have said, passes are usual for most law students. People who contribute to this board are, by virtue of the fact that they are contributing to this board in their spare time, more likely to consider a 4 a failure. Because of that - they are also more likely to hang around with like-minded people. So don't be so concerned - getting passes is perfectly normal - you're not going to be driven out of a law firm with a stick just because you have a few of them on your acedemic transcript.

Damn right, we are all law nerds is that what you were meant to say?

 

[Summer Rain]

I do have an actual UNSW document listing the law student grade distributions for Semester 1 of 2006 which I'd like to post here, but it is 1.3mb and these forums don't allow such file sizes.

Moonlight I would love to have a look at those grade distributions. Do you know the distributions for contracts II and torts? If it is possible can you put up the link so I follow it . If you can't can you email them to me, I will give you my private email address.

Cheers

 

[BillytheFIsh]

as to the above... oHhHhhhhhh:

grade distributions document (pdf)

QUT is in the Group of 8? Seems a bit odd.

but billy, most of us have always been driven by excellence. and excellence, for alot of the bigger (international) firms i know, means at least a 2:1, if not a first. acknowledging a pass as 'normal' will not lead to such a final result. if people want an easier access to interviews i would advise against being complacent with one's marks.

For the record – I personally considered a pass to be a fail and I only "failed" one subject in my degree (damn 70% group assignment subject), but I just don't think it’s the end of the world if that's not your outlook on life.

I realise that most people here are looking to get into a top tier at all costs (for better or for worse) and I'm not for a second denying that you need top marks to get those interviews, but seriously, you have your whole career to be a workaholic, uni is about having fun, getting hideously drunk and cramming for exams at the last minute.

"Sacrilege!" I hear the collective BoS community shout. But seriously, sitting in my office now as a practitioner, I can honestly say the only things I regret about uni are:

1. Not drinking more; and
2. Attending so many lectures.

It may be difficult to see, but seriously, marks are not the be all and end all. Make sure you make the most of your time at uni because before you know it, you too will be working the weekend before Christmas because 3 litigation clients and 3 commercial clients simply MUST have their respective tasks done before you get to take a whole 2 consecutive days off.

Maybe I should just go back to uni and do an arts degree…

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Moonlight I would love to have a look at those grade distributions. Do you know the distributions for contracts II and torts? If it is possible can you put up the link so I follow it . If you can't can you email them to me, I will give you my private email address.

Cheers

The Semester 2, 2005 distributions for Torts and Contracts 2 are reproduced below.

Torts

Fails below 40: 2 (1%)
Fails above 40: 1 (~0%)
Passes: 41 (12%)
Credits: 168 (49%)
Distinctions: 114 (33%)
High Distinctions: 20 (6%)


Contracts 2

Fails below 40: 6 (2%)
Fails above 40: 0
Passes: 50 (17%)
Credits: 133 (46%)
Distinctions: 87 (30%)
High Distinctions: 12 (4%)


Also, some 2003 stats are here

 

[MoonlightSonata]

For the record – I personally considered a pass to be a fail and I only "failed" one subject in my degree (damn 70% group assignment subject), but I just don't think it’s the end of the world if that's not your outlook on life.

I have a pass on my record too

I realise that most people here are looking to get into a top tier at all costs (for better or for worse) and I'm not for a second denying that you need top marks to get those interviews, but seriously, you have your whole career to be a workaholic, uni is about having fun, getting hideously drunk and cramming for exams at the last minute.

"Sacrilege!" I hear the collective BoS community shout.

Well I only really want to work in a top tier firm for about 3 years before running off to the bar anyway!

 

[hfis]

But seriously, sitting in my office now as a practitioner, I can honestly say the only things I regret about uni are:

1. Not drinking more; and
2. Attending so many lectures.

I am taking this as advice and immediately increasing (1) and decreasing (2). Thanks!!

 

[Summer Rain]

The Semester 2, 2005 distributions for Torts and Contracts 2 are reproduced below.

Torts

Fails below 40: 2 (1%)
Fails above 40: 1 (~0%)
Passes: 41 (12%)
Credits: 168 (49%)
Distinctions: 114 (33%)
High Distinctions: 20 (6%)


Contracts 2

Fails below 40: 6 (2%)
Fails above 40: 0
Passes: 50 (17%)
Credits: 133 (46%)
Distinctions: 87 (30%)
High Distinctions: 12 (4%)


Also, some 2003 stats are here

Is that 2005 or 2006 (before you said you had the 2006 sats). You are a legend for posting this up, do you have some mates in student admin or something to get this info. Your great. Its very interesting indeed and very scary too Thats alot of distinctions and HD's, its not that uncommon to fall into that range. I hope sydney uni has similar stats otherwise I won't be transfering.

 

[Summer Rain]

QUT is in the Group of 8? Seems a bit odd.


For the record – I personally considered a pass to be a fail and I only "failed" one subject in my degree (damn 70% group assignment subject), but I just don't think it’s the end of the world if that's not your outlook on life.

I realise that most people here are looking to get into a top tier at all costs (for better or for worse) and I'm not for a second denying that you need top marks to get those interviews, but seriously, you have your whole career to be a workaholic, uni is about having fun, getting hideously drunk and cramming for exams at the last minute.

"Sacrilege!" I hear the collective BoS community shout. But seriously, sitting in my office now as a practitioner, I can honestly say the only things I regret about uni are:

1. Not drinking more; and
2. Attending so many lectures.

It may be difficult to see, but seriously, marks are not the be all and end all. Make sure you make the most of your time at uni because before you know it, you too will be working the weekend before Christmas because 3 litigation clients and 3 commercial clients simply MUST have their respective tasks done before you get to take a whole 2 consecutive days off.

Maybe I should just go back to uni and do an arts degree…

Hi Billy, yes QLD is in the G08. I think as a matter of national policy every state must have atleast one uni in the G08 (with the exception of Tasmania) hahaha.

I thought you were a student. I didn't know u are already practicing. You probably know better than all of us about the importance of obtaining D's then. I don't think people care about grades once you are 20-3 years working. In my other undergrad degree (not law) I had 3 of my friends who failed exactly 4 subjects each, some the same subject twice. They all have great jobs now working in their field and I can honestly say they were more successful than I was. But then again, law is an entirely different discipline.

I agree, enjoy uni as much as you can. I am happy to be back. Y do u think I came back to grad law; I needed to escape from the drag and bore of the corporate world and bleakness of office life for a few more years! Uni is great (except when it comes to exam time).

Billy, is law what u expected it to be, do you do the same things you were taught at uni or is the practice what you do completely different. Do you get to work on cases or is the work very administrative like drawing up contracts and wills? Do you prefer working or uni better.