Five Muslim radical clerics Banned from speaking to Media (2 Viewers)

[banco55]

If we had been as hospitable as we should have been and not ostrasized "these people", and the media and government hadn't exploited peoples xenophobia, resulting in "these people" feeling unwelcome, then he would not have a grime with Australians, then he would not say what he said.

It's people like you, who make them feel like they aren't Australian.. like they aren't normal.. like they don't belong.. And then you have the nerve to crucify them when they act or speak in a socially deviant way, when all along you have been viewing and treating them as different, through your "black and white" paradigm.
All he has done is speak his mind in a way that may not be socially acceptable (but who hasn't done that?)

Yes let's all bury our heads in the sand and pretend there is no tension between Islam (and it's adherents) and western democracy. I'm not sure what you mean by more hospitable? It's not xenophobic to say that you find aspects of Islam's treatment of women deplorable or that you have concerns about Islam's compatibility wiith western democracy. I don't think it's any coincidence that the immigrants from countries like Korea, China etc. have had a much easier time integrating into Australia. As many commentators have pointed out the planned terrorist attacks by Muslim Australians are unprecedented. No other ethnic/religious group has produced anything similar.

 

[Optophobia]

actually, if you look at islamic immigration all over the world, they act like this everywhere, where they have been welcomed wth open arms (france, and other euro countries), where they haven't, and interestingly enough, in their own countries.

Every single one of them?
So when a bad act is done by a muslim, it indicts all Muslims. But if a non-muslim person does something bad, lets just revert to the "bad apple" theory. You want to have 2 different sets of rules.

they have the nerve to come to adifferent country and attmept to impose their views on us. i think that is far more unacceptable.

Are you talking about the Americans and how they go to Iraq and attempt to impose their views on Iraqis?

*They**them**us*

It isn't a black and white argument. What it IS, is the media and government capitalizing on fear and you're falling for it without even realizing it. You're happy to sit in your cozy Us V Them mindset, but it's not that simple.

Besides, you say that there is a problem, yet what do you suggest the solution is?

Yes let's all bury our heads in the sand and pretend there is no tension between Islam (and it's adherents) and western democracy.

Yes, there is tension created by the extremes on both sides. Once again it's not an Us V Them argument. We live in a globalised world where resources, religion and people spread quickly. There are more than a few Muslims who are westernized and believe in Democracy, and there are more than a few people of western decent who are living in the middle east .. business men etc. When you look at it from a macro perspective - US v THEM, what you say (and think) has no credibility.

Islam's compatibility wiith western democracy.

Do you have a problem with all things that are incompatible with Western Democracy, or who otherwise don't whole heartedly support its ethos?

Communists? Nazis? Aboriginals? What about the average yobo who hangs out at the pub and who has no clue about how government works?

The threat in your mind, that Muslims are incompatible with western democracy (which is rubbish), is deliberately over-exaggerated by the media, not because they care, but because they know that it's an easy way to get viewers. They like working people up into a frenzy of panic, generally over a non-existent threat.

I don't think it's any coincidence that the immigrants from countries like Korea, China etc. have had a much easier time integrating into Australia.

Asians have had the longest history of discrimination in Australian history. From the time of the gold rush, up until the late 20th century, they were the victims of discrimination, because the moral panic and socialisation of racism was directed towards the threat of the 'yellow peril'. It just so happens that the moral panic as created by the media has shifted to a much more interesting and much more easily exploitable threat - middle easterners.

As many commentators have pointed out the planned terrorist attacks by Muslim Australians are unprecedented. No other ethnic/religious group has produced anything similar.

Not in Australia, but the Irish have done it in Northern Ireland, and that's their own country. We have had smaller moments of deviance; ned kelly (irish immigrant), Chinese bush rangers, etc.


But let's for a moment assume that you are correct... What do you suggest the solution is?

 

[JayB]

oh god no, if i've indicated that it refers to every one, i'm sorry. i don't believe that in the slightest. i was refering to the loud minority and the silent majority that exists within their culture.

and i know its not black and white, but i happen to have a different view of the gray than you clearly do. i see a difference in what america does, and what fundamentalist muslims do, and if you would prefer it, i can point it out for you.

they are different in culture and religion. it isnt politically incorrect nor xenophobic the reflect on that. to truly understand them, and work towards peace, you're gomnna hve to relise at some point that they are different, the ones who didn't grow up here are anyway.

and my solution is a removal of the leaders that preach hatred, imprisonment for their views of genocide and racial and ethnic cleansing, a much more open dialogue both within the muslim and arabic community, and from outside it. what you are failing to address is that they pick up prejudices from their parents and religious leaders, and there is nothing being taught to them to question those prejudices at any point. they are unable to percieve the world (they indicating a norm, not a total) any other way than how they have been brought up.

racial intolerance, and all the violent hateful feelings that come with it is a mental sickness passed on from parent to child, or from teacher to child. i think the solution is staring you in the face, you just have to decide if you agree with it or not.

 

[banco55]

and my solution is a removal of the leaders that preach hatred, imprisonment for their views of genocide and racial and ethnic cleansing, a much more open dialogue both within the muslim and arabic community, and from outside it. what you are failing to address is that they pick up prejudices from their parents and religious leaders, and there is nothing being taught to them to question those prejudices at any point. they are unable to percieve the world (they indicating a norm, not a total) any other way than how they have been brought up.

Imprisoning people for speech would be a very dangerous step. Plus removing/imprisoning leaders would just make them martyrs. Not to mention given that their views are viewed by many Muslim Australians as unremarkable it would be pointless. In fact I can't think of a better way to discredit the moderates (by western standards) in the muslim community.

I don't think there is a solution beyond heavily restricting muslim immigration and 'managing' the existing muslim community.

 

[JayB]

not so much imprisoning people for speech as for imflammatory views, inciting racial hatred and villifying other religions and australia in general.

restricting muslim immigration doesn't help the problem already existant in our community. but i dont think the removal should be borne by australia at large, but should be reminiscient of this ban. just like the community banning them from speaking to the press, the community should ban them from praching, from speaking, and give them up in general. otherwise, the problem will always exist. like with every situation and conflict the muslim community is finding themselves in atm, alot of the solution needs to come from them.

and its not that muslims are incompatible with western democracy, but more that islam, in the way it is being understood by these people, is.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

actually, if you look at islamic immigration all over the world, they act like this everywhere, where they have been welcomed wth open arms (france, and other euro countries), where they havent, and interestingly enough, in their own countries. they have the nerve to come to adifferent country and attmept to impose their views on us. i think that is far more unacceptable.

That's more of a few bad eggs scenario, really.

 

[withoutaface]

The Paris riots were caused by a few bad eggs?

 

[banco55]

and its not that muslims are incompatible with western democracy, but more that islam, in the way it is being understood by these people, is.

I think that's a distinction without a difference in practice. It's reminiscent of the old argument from die hard communists that true communism wasn't incompatible with democracy the problem was everywhere they tried to implement it they found the opposite.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

The Paris riots were caused by a few bad eggs?

Correct.

 

[Optophobia]

Sunday, 11 March 2007. 16:23 (AEDT)

The New South Wales election campaign has been drawn into a debate about immigration after the Christian Democrats leader Fred Nile called for a decade long halt to Muslim arrivals in Australia.

State Premier Morris Iemma avoided questions about whether he would continue to work with the Christian Democrats if re-elected while addressing a small crowd while on the campaign trail.

Reverend Nile earlier argued that there has been no study of the impact of Muslims in Australia and there needs to be some breathing space.

"It would be best if we had a moratorium on Muslim immigration into Australia as I have suggested for 10 years," he said.

But Mr Iemma says he opposes the idea.

"I don't agree with those statements, I don't see what the connection is with the state government," he said.

Meanwhile, opposition leader Peter Debnam says Reverend Nile can debate the issue if he wants, but he is not focussed on it.

"I'm dealing with the issues where I can make a real difference to the people of New South Wales," he said.

But Mr Debnam would not comment on whether the coalition would agree to preference deals with the party.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/items/200703/1868762.htm?elections/nsw/2007/

 

[onebytwo]

oh god no, if i've indicated that it refers to every one, i'm sorry. i don't believe that in the slightest. i was refering to the loud minority and the silent majority that exists within their culture.

"silent majority" ? just because you cant here condemnation doesnt mean it doesnt exist. this notion of "loud" and "silent" is at discretion of the media

 

[JayB]

it means it doesn't exist publicly, which menas they either dont have the strength of convictions or belief, and dont really care, or the community is so anti-free speech and free will that they silence their objectors. i think its pretty much a combination of the two. god, the opinions page of the herald takes anything, can't be that hard to sneak a condemnation in there somewhere.