For those wanting to study Law... (2 Viewers)

[Frigid]

by no means is the following my work, but i'm putting it up here because i think it's helpful in your decision to study law at university. keep in mind that if you fail to reach the cutoff for law, there are always full-fee and graduate positions available (such as graduate law at UNSW/UTS/USYD or MLLP at UTS). the following are adapted from seminar notes given by Associate Professor Robert Watt of the Faculty of Law at the University of Technology, Sydney as part of the subject, 'Legal Process and History 70113'. i hope Rob won't begrudge me the copyright restrictions for posting this up...

Why Study Law and How to Succeed

• Why are you studying law? Is it a well thought out career choice?
  
• Is it the money? There is a myth there that needs some exploration.
  
  The Sydney Morning Herald's "The Good Universities Guide 2003" puts the average starting salary of a law graduate at $39028. A graduate doctor was put at $46687 and a dentist at $50521. Even graduates in tourism and hospitality are earning $43680.
  
  It is true that there is good moeny after some years in practice, but like any profession it does take time.
  
• Is it intellectual curiosity? If so, it is a good profession.
  
• Is it the glamour of Law? If you graduate and start practice, statistically:
  
  62% will go into private practice (incl. barristers)
  20% will go into the public sector (government legal and non-legal, academia)
  14% will end up in the private industry (both legal and non-legal) and
  4% will be seeking employment.
  
  Of that 62%, most of you will become solicitors, and more than harlf of you will practice in the suburbs (or country) in a single [sole proprietor], or small partnership. The other half will also be in solicitors working in the medium to large commercial firms, usually located in the cities.
  
  [Here I edit the different types of practice more succintly than the original text:]
  
• Suburban and Country Solicitors - dealing with people and their immediate problems. broad cross-section of work: criminal, family, probate and commercial. if close to local court, criminal work will predominate. women in private practice tend to get more family law work than their male counterparts.
  
  in country towns, solicitor will tend to do much community work. well known in community and respected.
  
• Larger Commercial Firms - larger city firms, more commercial practice, larger areas of specialisation. work may be coupled with other areas such as: biotechnology, industrial, intellectual property, construction, taxation etc.
  
  a graduate who enters a large firm will expect a rotation process of 3-4 practice areas over a 1-2 year period so they can experience the various areas of practice. after that, there may be specialisation in a single area. there are accredited areas of specialisation, such as advocacy, business law, childrens law, commercial litigation, criminal law, family law, immigration law, mediation and alternative dispute resolution, local government and planning law, personal injury law, property law, wills and estates law.
  
• Government Service - can work as a solicitor for all areas of government eg. employment, commercial leasing, construction. other specialisations include parliamentary counsel's office (drafting of legislation), office of the director of public prosecution and litigation.
  
• In-house/Corporate Counsel - larger corporations keep their own legal teams. over the years there have been downsizing in this area, in favour of outsourcing but there seems a trend of reversal.
  
• Solicitors or Barristers - our profession is generally divided into two tiers - solicitors or barristers. few students leave law school and go straight to the Bar.
  
  why not? the simple reason is associated with the ways barristers get business. unlike a solicitor who can advertise and get people off the street, the barristers are sole-traders [who work independently in their own room in the chambers, full of other barristers] who usually wait and have clients referred to them by solicitors. this means a barrister must have developed a professional reputation to have a steady stream of clients. thus the usual pathway to the Bar is to spend a few years in a law firm (of solicitors) and, with his/her abilities recognised, head off to the the Bar and to wait for briefs to arrive.
  
  the work undertaken by barristers are restricted to the area of advocacy and the writing of legal opinions, but cover a diverse area of law. there will be some degree of specialisation, but most will practice widely.
  
  it is from this pool of barristers that judges are selected.

ok kids, any questions?

 

[bubble_tea]

Is it easy finding a job out there?
and does it take much to study law at uni?

 

[Frigid]

Is it easy finding a job out there?
and does it take much to study law at uni?

i can't really answer the first question but i suppose so. maintain a credit average throughout and it should be **okay** (i say this high conditionally. though 4% unemployment is not that bad)... i remember other than being a lawyer you can also work in the commercial sector, social work, consulting, journalism and a host of other things if you lean on your other degree.

law is usually studied at the undergraduate level as a 5 year combined degree. there is no room under the current HECS system to add any electives in any other area other than law and your other degree (believe me, i tried). the workload is hard, but like all things, you need to work at it. i suppose if you're our dear mr. laz you'll find law a breeze

i know i haven't really answered your question well, but that's as far as i know. oh btw, law students get to moot.

 

[Ziff]

My problem is that I want to do arts/law because I feel I am interested in the subject themselves (e.g. Politics/History - which tie in with Law well and Languages), this isn't the problem, what is though is that I have no bloody clue what I want to do after I've eventually finished the degrees. I might go into a life-long term of academia or head off to some sort of Government position (Aust. Gov't, UN or something international, hence my choice of ANU)... It shouldn't matter too much that I have no idea what I want to do after I finish my arts/law degree right? As long as I'm doing it because I want to and enjoy it AND that I get as high a mark as possible (and first class honours in both)?

 

[Frigid]

It shouldn't matter too much that I have no idea what I want to do after I finish my arts/law degree right? As long as I'm doing it because I want to and enjoy it AND that I get as high a mark as possible (and first class honours in both)?

although law is not as wide as maybe a commerce degree, i'm pretty sure there are many alternative career opportunities that exist and others will pop-up along the way. so not knowing what to do when you graduate now is like not knowing what uni course you are going to get back in yr 7. it's perfectly acceptable - just enjoy the ride

 

[Ziff]

although law is not as wide as maybe a commerce degree, i'm pretty sure there are many alternative career opportunities that exist and others will pop-up along the way. so not knowing what to do when you graduate now is like not knowing what uni course you are going to get back in yr 7. it's perfectly acceptable - just enjoy the ride

Excellent. So does it really matter if I get a degree from a Common Law system and in the end want to or do work in a country that uses the Civil Law system?

 

[Lexicographer]

Yet another thread worth sticking by WenHui. Good Job.

Stuck

 

[Frigid]

Excellent. So does it really matter if I get a degree from a Common Law system and in the end want to or do work in a country that uses the Civil Law system?

not sure on this one - my bet is you could but you'll probably have to do further legal education at the civil law country.

 

[ameh]

Would it be possible to say, do Arts and maintain a credit average from that and then be accepted into Law? or is it 50% UAI and 50% Uni marks?

 

[Frigid]

Would it be possible to say, do Arts and maintain a credit average from that and then be accepted into Law? or is it 50% UAI and 50% Uni marks?

as far as i know, the only chance to transfer into undergraduate law is at the end of first year. each uni will have a number of NRSL places available (50 for usyd i think). the assessments for these places depend on the university: USYD and UNSW look at 50% UAI, 50% uni marks, whereas UTS will also take the personal statement and employment experience into account.

in reply to your question, the short answer is no. if you have a mid-80s UAI and a credit average, you most likely would not be able to transfer into law after first year - the competition is simply too high. the bare minimum, I would expect, is a mid-high 90s UAI and a distinction average to transfer into USYD/UNSW as a NRSL student.

 

[Jonathan A]

Excellent. So does it really matter if I get a degree from a Common Lawsystem and in the end want to or do work in a country that uses the Civil Law system?

I doubt that process will occur automatically, unless you are qualified to approach their courts. As a diplaw student, many of my peers have completed their Masters in Law from different civil law countries. They still however need to be able to practice properly in our common law system, so that is why the LPAB has demanded that they do a law course in Australia prior to practice. One of my peers is a lawyer from Lebanon, a civil law country, he has been given credit on the last 7 subjects of the Diploma in Law course. Another is from the Netherlands, another from China, etc... I supose you need to know the background of their legal systems in order to practice.

There is an option to study at other unis in civil law countries while at our unis. You could also do a Bachelor of Civil Law, which is a postgrad offered at English Universities, I think this allows you to practice in Civil Law countries, so i have been told.

 

[omg_a]

argh, ziff, i have the exact same problem. i want to do arts law at
ANU next year, and do french and international relations in my arts because i'm really interested in them, i have no idea what, if any, job it will lead to. i mean, it's nice to say the UN or foreign affairs, but i don't think that it's really very realistic??? oh well, one can only dream. Also, if you don't make the entry to law, is it better to do another course at the same uni, or another course at a different uni....which would be easier to transfer from???

 

[epsilon]

Hey, nice thread, btw! Anyways, I have another sort of question to ask you, frigid. I'm a recent migrant from Malaysia (I'm Chinese!), but dun worry, my English is quite good, thank you very much! However, I do have this S'porean/M'sian accent, which is really unavoidable. I had always wanted to study law, and I was wondering whether my race and accent would be a problem. Would it, in your opinion?

Thanx man.

xar

 

[Lainee]

Thanks for posting that up, it's really helpful! I just wanted to ask - what large commercial firms generally employ law graduates and how would the salary from this compare with working as a surburban/country solicitor?

 

[Frigid]

Thanks for posting that up, it's really helpful! I just wanted to ask - what large commercial firms generally employ law graduates and how would the salary from this compare with working as a surburban/country solicitor?

all large commercial firms (mallesons, allens, freehills etc) mostly take graduates from those who have completed summer vacation with them. i think the starting gross salary is something round the $50k mark... compared to $0-$100k+ if you were sole practitioner working in the suburbs or in the country (because you're self-employed, you take all profits, sustain all the losses).

 

[theone123]

haha my lecturer said, if u hire a barrister and dont pay the fees, they can only simple sue you

 

[epsilon]

there are rumours that certian barristers wont hire you as a junior unless your white/male/anglican and preferably from sydney grammar

Are you serious? That's the end for my law aspirations, I guess. Btw, I wasn't planning in becoming a barrister, I wanted to practice as a solicitor, like in the field of taxation, company, migration, etc. You know, the 'boring' fields. But I guess it's tata to them now then! Pity...

 

[Frigid]

Are you serious? That's the end for my law aspirations, I guess. Btw, I wasn't planning in becoming a barrister, I wanted to practice as a solicitor, like in the field of taxation, company, migration, etc. You know, the 'boring' fields. But I guess it's tata to them now then! Pity...

don't!

mate, it doesn't matter whether you're celtic, or anglo, or dane, or asian... as long as you can work competently in a professional manner, the big companies should take you... just look at how many asians doing commerce/law at UNSW...

barrister, on the other hand... might be different. i don't know. i'll ask for you.

 

[Lexicographer]

I've come across some pretty appalling barristers - in fact, I witnessed a case so easy to defend even I could have pulled it. The guy up front lost the case and the defendant lost her license.

 

[santaslayer]

there are rumours that certian barristers wont hire you as a junior unless your white/male/anglican and preferably from sydney grammar

I fit one of those three criterion....am I in?