For those wanting to study Law... (1 Viewer)

[paper cup]

there are rumours that certian barristers wont hire you as a junior unless your white/male/anglican and preferably from sydney grammar

OK, well I'm fucked then.

 

[Jago]

you can work for me:

Sex slave, law degree preferable.

 

[Frigid]

Sex slave, law degree preferable.

sadomachism with statute books and legal digests!

 

[Jago]

i have no idea what you just said.

 

[Ziff]

Legal digest - now in suppository form!

 

[Lexicographer]

This sticky has been immensely polluted - thanks a lot, Tim.

What he says is true, to an extent. But notice the two qualifiers: "rumour" and "some".

The first by definition means it's unconfirmed, the second (again by definition) implies that this is limited. It doesn't apply to ALL barristers, just a minority. So, don't think that because you're an Asian girl from Baulkham Hills High you've got no chance!

 

[wildtiger]

Back to the topic :uhhuh:

I'm interested in studying law but I dont think I can make it into the 99's. I also don't want to bet my chances by transferring in 2nd year in case I dont make it (I understand it is highly competitive). So I have looked to uni's other than UNSW and Usyd. It is relatively easier to get into Macq (~95) and UTS but which uni is better in terms of academic & career opportunities and prestige?

My careers advisor told me that it wouldnt matter which uni you come out of, as long as you have the degree thats fine. But if I was an employer I would obviously have a greater interest in a graduate law student from Usyd than say, uni of canberra. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[santaslayer]

Back to the topic :uhhuh:

I'm interested in studying law but I dont think I can make it into the 99's. I also don't want to bet my chances by transferring in 2nd year in case I dont make it (I understand it is highly competitive). So I have looked to uni's other than UNSW and Usyd. It is relatively easier to get into Macq (~95) and UTS but which uni is better in terms of academic & career opportunities and prestige?

My careers advisor told me that it wouldnt matter which uni you come out of, as long as you have the degree thats fine. But if I was an employer I would obviously have a greater interest in a graduate law student from Usyd than say, uni of canberra. What are your thoughts on this?

I think you and your advisor both have their valid points. It comes to your own choosing at the end.

 

[Soma]

there are rumours that certian barristers wont hire you as a junior unless your white/male/anglican and preferably from sydney grammar

Yay, I'm all four!
But yeh I'm dropping out of B.Arts in Communications and hopefully doing combined law at UTS where I am now or Macquarie. Because my course is ungraded at the moment I have very little chance of getting in at UNSW or USyd. Don't really want to go to ANU either.

 

[Frigid]

to settle the ol' 'my law school is better than yours' debate

Law schools - hankering for a ranking

Australian law schools love the kudos associated with a strong showing in rankings surveys. The latest attempt to rank Australian law schools was recently released evoking in some schools glee, in others gloom. FindLaw investigates this latest rankings survey and asks whether rankings really matter at all.
The 2004 edition of The Good Universities Guide hit the newsstands and bookshops a few weeks ago. In 448 pages it endeavours to comprehensively rank Australian universities and the degree courses they offer.

Part 1 ranks each university according to a wide variety of academic, social and statistical criteria. Not surprisingly members of the Group of Eight coalition were rated as the most prestigious institutions in Australia. The so-called Group of Eight comprises The University of Adelaide, The Australian National University, The University of Melbourne, Monash University, The University of New South Wales, The University of Queensland, The University of Sydney and The University of Western Australia. For many prospective students this is where their analysis of Australian universities starts and stops.

Part 2 analyses 30 broad fields of study including law. The quality or otherwise of various law schools was measured against criteria including students’ perceptions of teaching quality, their overall satisfaction with the course, their success in getting a job and their starting salary. According to these measures the Law Schools of The University of Newcastle, The University of Wollongong, The University of New South Wales and Bond University are the best in Australia; at least according to the Good Guide’s comparison of student surveys.

However, as the Good Guide concedes their ranking and rating is merely an indicator and does not present the full picture.

“There is on going debate among academics about the reliability, use and validity of the Course Experience Questionnaire (CEQ). Some institutions argue that the CEQ has not been designed for the purposes of inter-institutional comparisons, CEQ data do not necessarily provide an accurate comparison of differences in the quality of education or the level of student satisfaction from institution to institution,” says the Guide on page 41.

The assumption is that the leading law schools could be objectively and qualitatively identified, as if such identification really matters.

In preparing this story FindLaw spoke with students, staff and graduates from numerous Australian law schools and with lawyers and human resources professionals from a number of Australian law firms. While students and graduates understandably exhibited some parochial pride and marketing professionals were eager to put forward a positive spin on their particular school, there was apparent indifference about rankings and comparisons. FindLaw found that good students were more interested in making the most of their opportunities, whichever institution they studied at, and law firms simply wanted well-rounded students.

Julia Sweeney was admitted as a Legal Practitioner in 2001 after three and a half years studying with the Law Extension Committee of the University of Sydney (‘LEC’), an institution not mentioned in the Good Guide. Sweeney received her Diploma of Law from the Legal Practitioners Admission Board and after a career as a registered nurse is now employed as a medical negligence lawyer with Sydney firm Craddock Murray Neumann.

I asked Julia whether her qualification, a Diploma of Law vis-a-vis a Bachelor of Laws, was a barrier to securing a position as a lawyer?

“As a mature-age student this was a major concern to me. However, my experience and that of my friends was quite the opposite. Having a Diploma in Law has not ever been a barrier at all, in fact, when I have gone for interviews it was always viewed positively.

“In December 1999 I organized a panel of speakers to address LEC students. The opening address was given by Justice Windeyer and the speakers included: John Kelly, a Partner with Mallesons Stephen Jacques; Siobhain Mullany, a Criminal Lawyer with the Legal Aid Commission; and Michael Ryan a Partner with McClellands. Some of the speakers had completed the LEC course but most were employers who were all unanimous in their opinion that the course was not a barrier to employment and, in fact, often gave candidates a leading edge because of the perceived demands of the course,” Sweeney replied.

A survey of several law firms revealed that, whereas there were formerly distinct preferences for graduates from certain law schools this is no longer the case. Adele Brady, Director of Human Resources at Freehills identified a student with the right package of skills as the sort of candidate Freehills is seeking. I asked Brady what she meant by the “right package of skills”?

“The particular school a new recruit went to is not as important anymore, and is not the reason why people succeed at Freehills.

“We are looking for more than just core legal skills when we recruit. Our research from clients shows that they want to work with lawyers who understand their business. Australian law schools are justifiably recognised worldwide for the high quality of their legal training, but we need to select graduates who also have interpersonal and communications skills. Most students only do selected commercial law subjects at university anyway, and we have a comprehensive graduate-training program to develop these skills. Primarily we are looking for the best students who have a package of skills and the ability to develop into the commercially aware lawyers our clients demand. We find these good graduates in all universities, and it's important to look everywhere for the top people . . . [T]hese days we can't exclude any school from our search for the best and brightest. This is because candidates with the right combination of skills can thrive and rise to the top in any one of them,” Brady said.

Claire Storey, Human Resources Consultant for Baker & McKenzie, concurred with Brady on this issue saying that it ultimately came down to the talent of the individual not the law school they attended.

“In our graduates we look for high academic achievement, energy, enthusiasm, entrepreneurial skills and a good grasp of external business environments. Ultimately, a lawyer’s career is driven by the individual,” Storey said.

Adele Brady conceded that Freehills had its preferences when recruiting in the 1980’s and 1990’s. Brady stressed however, that preferential treatment is no longer part of Freehills recruitment culture.

FindLaw was impressed by this admission because as our readers appreciate it is tough enough to compete for professional positions simply on one’s merits. Known to the author was a man who in the mid-1990’s completed a Diploma of Law (LEC) with outstanding results. He had an Economics degree and several years experience working in a major insurance company. Yet despite being qualified for the positions he applied for, he could not secure a position in a medium or large firm in Sydney. The consensus amongst his colleagues and friends remains that his LEC qualification was viewed unfavourably.

While FindLaw has no reason to doubt the veracity of Freehills’ claim, we wonder aloud whether things have really changed across the board in the recruiting practices of law firms? Would the likes of Justice Michael McHugh, Justice Margaret Beazley, Justice David Ireland and David Nock SC, all LEC graduates, secure positions if they were applying for graduate positions in 2004?

But lest FindLaw makes too much of its egalitarian analysis of Australian law schools it is important to acknowledge two very telling points made to us. Some law schools by the very fact that entry to them is fiercely competitive tend to produce extraordinarily gifted graduates. Nowhere is this more apparent than the University of New South Wales Law School, which has produced five Rhodes Scholars in the last seven years (and at least one other Runner-Up that the author is aware of).

Secondly, there is a perception that four universities dominate in the recruitment stakes: The University of Melbourne, Monash University, The University of Sydney and The University of New South Wales. But according to Claire Storey perception is not reality.

“There are naturally higher numbers of recruits from the larger law schools (eg. Melbourne, Monash, Sydney and New South Wales), however these are in proportion (as a percentage of total applicants from each school) to the number of applications received. [Although] the bulk of Baker & McKenzie’s recruits come from The University of New South Wales, The University of Sydney, Monash University and The University of Melbourne . . . we have also taken a significant number of clerks from Deakin University, The University of Technology, The University of Queensland, Bond University and The Australian National University,” Storey said.

So we come back to where we started – do law school rankings matter at all? To concerned parents who cough up $22.00 to buy the Good Guide – definitely; to the terminally elite – naturally; to well-performed graduates – no; and to the law firms – evidently not.

http://www.findlaw.com.au/magazine/SupplementArticle.asp?id=38 [a now-dead link] but i found it thru <A HREF=http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:-1MWzrLP0LgJ:www.findlaw.com.au/magazine/SupplementArticle.asp%3Fid%3D38+law+school+ranking&hl=en> google cache</A>

so there you have it. no more of this 'my law school is better than yours' nonsense.

 

[Minai]

Good post Frigid.

 

[santaslayer]

That article seems to be suspiciously over-optimistic...

 

[Frigid]

That article seems to be suspiciously over-optimistic...

if it exposes some of the year 12 ignorance about sandstone law schools and promotes some of the more 'alternative' ones, then why not?

it must be remembered that you and i are trying to show these kids that just coz you don't go to unsw/usyd, it doesn't mean you're automatically written off as second material in the legal world (or so i hope).

 

[tanvi]

On the topic of law schools...

I've been interested in studying law for some time, and just received my UAI. It's enough to get me into Sydney or New South Wales (my preferred universities)...but I was wondering, what are the differences between the two (in terms of the courses offered, for example I think I heard that NSW puts more focus upon "social justice" with its law centre)?

I'm not sure if anyone can answer my question, it's kinda general and weird Oh well, thanks for any help. Tanvi

 

[Lainee]

Tanvi - if you look around on the General University board or the USyd or UNSW boards, there are various threads discussing this high subjective subject already. So there's no need to turn this thread into one of those too.

 

[wrong_turn]

i've wanted to study law for years. however, getting a high uai is the probelm. i am from a non-selective school and doing some less than well-scaled subjects. however can i get into unsw or usyd from paying full fee, therefore the miniumum i need to get is ~ 95. tell me, would this at all be possible?

 

[Frigid]

i've wanted to study law for years. however, getting a high uai is the probelm. i am from a non-selective school and doing some less than well-scaled subjects. however can i get into unsw or usyd from paying full fee, therefore the miniumum i need to get is ~ 95. tell me, would this at all be possible?

sorry for the late reply, but i found this in radar today:

Degree free
January 26, 2005

"During his school years, Philip Nolan, 21, had his heart set on becoming a lawyer but didn't get the marks he needed to study law at university. He started a science/arts degree, but didn't enjoy it. On the advice of a friend's lawyer father, Nolan looked into the Legal Practitioners Admissions Board diploma of law course and ditched uni.

The board diploma is not a degree but does qualify graduates to work as lawyers. Entry requirements are significantly lower than universities, but only about one-fifth of those who enrol successfully graduate. "It's easier to get into our course than any other law course, but it's very hard to complete," says board executive officer Roger Wescombe. "It's recognised as a very tough way to get your law qualifications."

Nolan, who's about one-third of the way through, is confident he'll become a barrister. He says studying law through the board is very demanding, with assessment based purely on exam results and no tutorials. On the upside, the evening lectures allow him to work as a clerk in a barrister's chambers. "You do get to know a lot more actually working; you learn about procedure through experience," he says."

 

[mr EaZy]

"to settle the ol' 'my law school is better than yours' debate "

well thats great but do you have the actual rankings of law schools in NSW /aust ?

im just curious!

 

[Frigid]

the following article is my submission into the second Poetic Justice:

---------------------------------------------------------
NOSCE TE IPSUM

Neo: Why am I here?
- Matrix: Reloaded

Are there times, while lugging that heavy bag of law tomes, waiting for the ever-tardy train service, boosting Australia’s GDP by your hungry consumption of highlighters, do you ask yourself the question, why the fuck am I here?. No, I am not asking you to question the meaning of life; I’m asking you, do you know why you are at law school? Have you ever even considered the question?

Some first-year students I’ve spoken to seem to have little idea… they got their UAI 99+, decided that they should do law because “all the other [UAI 99] people are doing it”, “it seems more prestigious than Commerce-Arts”, “my conservative (Asian) parents roped me into it coz I didn’t get into Medicine…” and “coz chicks dig lawyers” (ok, I made that one up).

Although they are fair enough reasons (for a recent HSC graduate), I do wish to see some more students take the plunge into (preferably Arts-, not Commerce-) Law because they “want to be a human-rights lawyer”; “want to make a difference in society with law reform”; “want to do something challenging and intellectually-stimulating”; “want to understand the legal structures of our society”.

Moreover, I want to see those of you already in law school to start knowing yourselves (latin maxim: nosce te ipsum), to start knowing why you are in law, and to move away from those superficial post-HSC reasons into rationes of your own. Law exists beyond the atom-sized words you read in Halsburys’, it pervades every facet of society and it is up to you to go out and explore it.

While some forty percent of you will not choose law as a career, I hope that all of you explore it while you are at uni. Be an active member of LawSoc, go to social events, take advantage of the copious amounts of FREE ALCOHOL, enter yourself into mooting/wit-ex/negotiation/client-interview comps, go to career events and fairs, observe courts, ask lawyers/judges/academics about their work, read about the law in the media, explore alternative areas of law, get some work experience in the legal field, volunteer at community legal centres etc. Law school is much more than those fifteen contact hours a week for five years; it is an opportunity to learn and grow.

So if you ever find yourself philosophising why you are at law school, don’t fret if you can’t come up with a ‘good’, ‘individual’ reason. Consider leaving ignorance and apathy behind. Consider exploring and finding your own raison d’être.

In the end, may you know yourself. Life is more meaningful that way.
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[Newbie]

nice article
who roped you in to doing that rofl