Freedom is only privilege extended if it’s not shared by one and all. (1 Viewer)

[flaganarchy]

you arn't free unless everyone is free

 

[yoddle]

What about the true anarchist idea (which exposes ACAP for the fundamentally anti-anarchist concept that it is) that all property is theft?

And other trains of anarchist thought that suggest all oppression and inequalities stem from the concept of ownership and humans "owning" the land?

But this is all a little hard to easily define? Like what chance is there than 6billion plus people are going to all be free at any one time? Or is this just freedom inside a particular society?

 

[scuba_steve2121]

you arn't free unless everyone is free

maybe so but if you are not in jail have a house a nice car easy job i think your level of FREEDOM!!!!! (sorry just got reminded of brave heart) is higher then an individual in jail. so not everybody has to be free for everybody to be free.

 

[yoddle]

Never mind that fact that ultimately that person is in jail because you have your house and nice car.

If money and material wealth equate to freedom, does that indicate that society is unequal and oppressive? For can everyone be wealthy in a society, and if not, does that mean they cannot be as free as the wealthy ones?

 

[scuba_steve2121]

What about the true anarchist idea (which exposes ACAP for the fundamentally anti-anarchist concept that it is) that all property is theft?

And other trains of anarchist thought that suggest all oppression and inequalities stem from the concept of ownership and humans "owning" the land?

But this is all a little hard to easily define? Like what chance is there than 6billion plus people are going to all be free at any one time? Or is this just freedom inside a particular society?

yoddle what i think u are referring to is the left wing ideal of anarchism. in which u live like people did 10,000 years ago minus some type of tribal leader. anarchism means no leader no state. property is not theft were not communists for goodness sake. may i just say radical left wing anarchists are the type of people that want to kill all humans to save the environment. its has nothing to do with with ancap. which is a right wing libertarian ideal. what your talking about is people like Gandhi and his ashrams.

btw i hope this post doesn't seem offensive just trying to clarify the differing types of anarchism

 

[scuba_steve2121]

Never mind that fact that ultimately that person is in jail because you have your house and nice car.

If money and material wealth equate to freedom, does that indicate that society is unequal and oppressive? For can everyone be wealthy in a society, and if not, does that mean they cannot be as free as the wealthy ones?

unequal yes oppressive not unless you're been told what to do and have no option but to agree to it

ok i think i see what your saying. thing is what i think your getting at is that everybody must be equal to be free. equality in wealth is usually not a good thing to achieve this u could be a socialist borderline communist state something like north Korea. unfortunately for them this creates poverty and u end up being extremely not free.

 

[yoddle]

Mainstream anarchism that diverges from the radical left also rejects anarcho-capitalism as a representation of anarchy.

Yes I know these ideas come from very radical and perhaps impossible perspectives, and i am highly unsure of their viability in terms of everything, let alone freedom, but i just wanted them out there because i hate ACAP

Perhaps the argument is what is more important: that everyone is free, or that you are free?

I don't necessarily see why you aren't free unless everbody else is tbh.

Also scubasteve could you try and use a bit more punctuation and grammatical conventions because your posts are hard to read if you write more than 3 lines.

 

[yoddle]

ok i think i see what your saying. thing is what i think your getting at is that everybody must be equal to be free. equality in wealth is usually not a good thing to achieve this u could be a socialist borderline communist state something like north Korea. unfortunately for them this creates poverty and u end up being extremely not free.

No i wasn't getting at that because i'm not 100% sure that equality amongst all people can ever exist, i think almost universally, certain types of personalities ensure that hierarchy takes hold.

But yeah spreading wealth = meh. Your point about people ending up not free in that situation is true, because of the fact that the state accumulates so much power through being in control of all the resources that determine levels of freedom.

 

[scuba_steve2121]

yea hierarchy even in an ancap society would take hold but it would be hierarchy of wealth which is fine compared to when u have a state.

on a side note people think that ancap doesn't work because they think it has no rules. it has no laws but it has rules. the rules are dictated by who ever owns the property you are on. for instance on one property lets say your neighbours smoking is banned but on your other neighbours property its fine.

 

[yoddle]

unequal yes oppressive not unless you're been told what to do and have no option but to agree to it

Which would happen if you don't like money/capitalism??

But yeah i hate anarcho-capitalism but then sometimes I'm like "actually...", and I think i don't like it mainly because it purports to be anarchy, when I don't think it is at all (not that I'm even that much of anarchist at all anyway).

So pretty much my opinions are all over the place. Which is good.

 

[scuba_steve2121]

oh I'm sorry if i gave u the wrong impression i am a full on anarcho-capitalist.

i don't like saying that i am full on but more that i lean to it because once u say u are full on which i am people don't take your posts seriously anymore.

 

[yoddle]

Haha. No i knew you were one cos you said you were.

Yes thats true I ignore most of them nowadays.

But i repped you for being one that you can have a conversation with.

 

[scuba_steve2121]

haha ty yea i try to be nice and not flame anybody because that doesn't solve anything. when all i like is just having good discussions about politics or economics

btw most people think ancap is stupid because they have lived with a governing body all their life and can't see it any other way. I mean i look at ancap and i just can't see why things that the government provides can't be provided by private companies at a lower cost and more efficient, but hey that's just me and i won't blame u for wanting to have a democratic state as a safety net

 

[volition]

Ok so first off let me dispel the notion that anarcho-capitalism is purely a 'right wing' ideology. Roderick T Long or Kevin Carson - both are examples of people who come under the category of left-libertarian, and yet they are still for the free market and the abolition of government. It's just that most people who come to be ACist get there by first being 'right wing'.

Yoddle,

(1) The thing about whether or not ACism counts as 'true anarchism' - I tend to not really care about this issue because whether or not the term anarchism is even used to describe it, does not change what it is essentially about. Tbh I don't even like to use the terms 'anarchist' or 'capitalist' because there are different meanings to the word. I prefer to use the term "Voluntaryist", though it is not as well known.

At the end of the day, it is about voluntary interactions and trades between consenting individuals. There is nothing stopping an individual from starting their own socialist commune, so long as they are not forcing that on other people.

(2) What is your preferred alternative property system arrangement? What happens when there are disputes over property? What justifies some people using property and not others?

 

[scuba_steve2121]

Well the first guy is right wing ancap, the second doesn't understand what capitalism is from what i read. I mean come on he believes in the labour theory of value which is one of the most poor excuses for a theory.

The term ancap is fine, it represents the ideal.

And if a guy makes a social commune on his property that is fine with me i hope he/she has enough land to grow his/hers own crops and a running water supply.

As for your first question that is a tough one as it would depend on how the ancap system was implemented.

Also what kind of disputes provide an example please?

lastly for your third question everybody can have property they just have to buy it / rent it

 

[volition]

Scuba steve, I'm effectively an ACist myself so my questions weren't really directed towards you.

Roderick Long considers himself more on the left wing side of libertarianism. Kevin Carson has his own slightly different views, like his belief in the Labor Theory of Value - while effectively still being a free market supporter.

 

[flaganarchy]

anarcho-Capitalism is not a type of anarchism....

 

[scuba_steve2121]

Scuba steve, I'm effectively an ACist myself so my questions weren't really directed towards you.

Roderick Long considers himself more on the left wing side of libertarianism. Kevin Carson has his own slightly different views, like his belief in the Labor Theory of Value - while effectively still being a free market supporter.

Hmm well ill have to trust you on that, but the labour theory is a real put off, but otherwise nice to see another ancap supporter.

 

[flaganarchy]

syndicalism is the only from of anarchism.