hamlet/RAGAD...appearance VS reality (1 Viewer)

[tweakin]

Okay for the theme appearance Vs Reality....or illusion vs reality...wateva u wanna call it...
I understand this in relation to hamlet...with him feigning his madness....claudius evilnes??...gertrudes apparent love for hamlet.
But I dont really understand how this theme is transformed to Rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead. How is it apparent in this text?

 

[lizzies85]

ok this is ow i see it... the whole getting pulled in and out of the play, represents illusion v reality coz they are like experiencing two different worlds, which one is real which is illusion, they are controlled by the reality of Hamlet, but it is sort of just illusion in their reality. that was just a whole lots of bullshit.. but i hope you made some sort of sense out of it!!

 

[Mistress Lilith]

In RAGAD, Ros and Guil APPEAR to be concerned for Hamlet, when in fact they are only doing it for themselves--because the King has promised them something rewarding...
Also, the Player APPEARS to have died when Guil stabs him, but in reality is it a prop knife and he is not dead at all! the speech the player gives after this performance is a good example of a quote for this theme..
Some notes to consider:
*Stoppard suggests that the characters in Shakespeare's play are not as they appear--their motivations are not as selfish as they seem
*Stoppard uses images of death to expose the difference between appearance and reality. In Hamlet, death is bloody and violent--Stoppard suggests that the reality is simply an absense
It ties in well with the death theme as well, prevalent in both texts

 

[nicole2511]

i agree with the stabbing bit and the play within the play- the line between reality and fiction are blurred inorder to confuse both the characters and the audience- stoppard intended this to simulate the confusion and helplessness/lack of control felt in the 1960s after the cold war/ww2 (you hv to remember to relate everything back to context- v.v important!!)

 

[dissonance]

watch out there Nicole - the 1960s was the Vietnam war, not WW2. - your still right though, thats a good contextual link...i like it.

 

[dissonance]

or now I see you already know that...........

 

[Minai]

there is also an illusion of control...hamlet appears to have control, but really he doesn't (ie fate has tied him to his destiny) but in R+G, they have no control, and stoppard exposes this and makes a comment on modern society in general

i dunno..i read that in some study guide..?

 

[p00_p00]

hmmmm

firstly id have 2 argue about the Hamlet has no control ova his destiny. Thats wat Stoppard transformed. He transformed Hamlet's grasp of destiny into extistianlism in which R&G do not control their destinys.

EG
Hamelt chooses to
- not kill Claud when prayying
- fight with Laertes and die eventually
- snub Ophelia

etc etc

however R&G have no control as they cant leave the stage of Hamlet and they are automated to say the lines of Hamlet when the coin is tails.

 

[nicole2511]

i agree with p00 to a certain extent..

i think that in hamlet, hamlet has a strong belief and acceptance of his fate and purpose and that god had a divine purpose for each individual. ham has the "free will" to decide how he fulfill his purpose, but ultimately this is just a small part of the ultimate outcome...sorry, i dont know if im makin sense, oh well ill just keep going..

in r+g however, the two are unwilling to take control of their lives and look to external forces to competely direct and control them. they have no idea of what they want- desitny is seen as a much higher power that cannot be altered- they dont pray or question anything until the end "there must have been a moment, at the very beginning where we could have said- no". stoppard has written their "fate" as seen in the title "r+g are dead" also the conversaiton with the player "who decides?", "decides? it is written" and they have no intention of testing this.
"we can move, chnage direction, rattle about. but our movements are contained in a much larger one that carries us as inexorably as the wind"- (dont quote this, i dont think its completely right, i cant remember)
-> due to lack of will in 1960s, and shattered beliefs in god etc

i hope this makes sense,


gd lck

 

[dissonance]

ok then - so whats everyone's argument? How do you think Stoppard has transformed Hamlet and has he created something new in the process?

Our teachers seemed to have changed their opinion *after* each exam but I think I've finally got it figured out...

is it just an update/modern adpation? does he deal with all of the same themes but just in a different context? Only some of the same themes? is it a satire? Do you think Stoppard has any respect for Shakespeare or do you think he's just pointing out his irrelivance in our context or is he simply making fun of how stupid Shakespeare's plot and characters were?

 

[p00_p00]

Well i think that Stoppard is just transforming Hamlet for the relevant audience in the 20th centuary. THeir are new dominant themes and issues in our society and its not that Stoppard is disagreeing with Shakespeare but helping 2 make his text mre relevant in the modernist and post modernist era.

 

[Mistress Lilith]

Stoppard is transforming Shakespeare's work to suit his contemporary audience.
The themes are the same, although stoppard has addressed them in such a way that he is able to delve into each theme further (not just surface value) but also use it as a way to show his existentialist influence.
He sure has respect for the original text, he has just taken the parts that are relevant to HIS audience and HIS purpose and elaborated on that in a way in which to reflect the feelings/attitude of the society he was in.

Keep in mind, that Shakespeare's purpose was to entertain the masses--all social classes, all levels of intellect, theatre was the only entertainment
Stoppard's audience was fairly condensed in comparison--educated people, all with a [probable] extentensive knowledge of the original text of "hamlet"
Stoppard has just chosen to shift the spot light from the nobility (higher class) to the 'everyman'. The people under control of everyone else. RAGAD also deals with how out of touch people were with God, this was post-atomic-bomb/wars and so people's faith in God was shattered. That's why, when R&G are looking for direction, this can be taken to mean that they are looking for direction from GOD. In the word game they play (the tennis one) they ask very philosophical questions, and when there IS reference to God, the other character quickly dismisses it--again a reflection of the society and it's dominant beliefs of the time.

 

[p00_p00]

Originally posted by Mistress Lilith

Keep in mind, that Shakespeare's purpose was to entertain the masses--all social classes, all levels of intellect, theatre was the only entertainment
Stoppard's audience was fairly condensed in comparison--educated people, all with a [probable] extentensive knowledge of the original text of "hamlet"

I dont really agree tottally on this. I agree but in an exam u cant generalise and speculate like that (well my teacher ses not 2)

 

[p00_p00]

Originally posted by Mistress Lilith
Stoppard is transforming Shakespeare's work to suit his contemporary audience.
The themes are the same, although stoppard has addressed them in such a way that he is able to delve into each theme further (not just surface value) but also use it as a way to show his existentialist influence.
He sure has respect for the original text, he has just taken the parts that are relevant to HIS audience and HIS purpose and elaborated on that in a way in which to reflect the feelings/attitude of the society he was in.

Keep in mind, that Shakespeare's purpose was to entertain the masses--all social classes, all levels of intellect, theatre was the only entertainment
Stoppard's audience was fairly condensed in comparison--educated people, all with a [probable] extentensive knowledge of the original text of "hamlet"
Stoppard has just chosen to shift the spot light from the nobility (higher class) to the 'everyman'. The people under control of everyone else. RAGAD also deals with how out of touch people were with God, this was post-atomic-bomb/wars and so people's faith in God was shattered. That's why, when R&G are looking for direction, this can be taken to mean that they are looking for direction from GOD. In the word game they play (the tennis one) they ask very philosophical questions, and when there IS reference to God, the other character quickly dismisses it--again a reflection of the society and it's dominant beliefs of the time.

Everythin else i agree with though


Also thx for this

RAGAD also deals with how out of touch people were with God, this was post-atomic-bomb/wars and so people's faith in God was shattered. That's why, when R&G are looking for direction, this can be taken to mean that they are looking for direction from GOD. In the word game they play (the tennis one) they ask very philosophical questions, and when there IS reference to God, the other character quickly dismisses it--again a reflection of the society and it's dominant beliefs of the time.

 

[dissonance]

I'd say it's cool to say that shakespeare's purpose was to entertain the masses. Just mention all the action, fights, blood, gore, supernatural, ghosts...comic scenes that have no relevance to the rest of the plot - other than providing comic relief.

 

[Mistress Lilith]

Originally posted by p00_p00



I dont really agree tottally on this. I agree but in an exam u cant generalise and speculate like that (well my teacher ses not 2)

All you have to do to use a point like that is write down a source you got it from and you're all set

Or not mention it at all, your call
I'm just giving my opinion here

 

[user]

Make sure you use the word context in your response somewhere.

Extra marks if you work in 'Theatre of the Absurd"

 

[Mistress Lilith]

Also can be referred to as "Absurdist Theatre" or an "Absurdist Drama Piece"

 

[Minai]

Originally posted by user
Make sure you use the word context in your response somewhere.

Extra marks if you work in 'Theatre of the Absurd"

context is like in every one of my paragraphs!

and how's this (this is a sentence off my essay, which i prolly ripped from somewhere): "Whereas 'Hamlet' is a tragedy that contained elements of comedy, "R+G are dead" is an absurdist comedy that ends in tragedy..."

 

[user]

Originally posted by MinAi


context is like in every one of my paragraphs!

and how's this (this is a sentence off my essay, which i prolly ripped from somewhere): "Whereas 'Hamlet' is a tragedy that contained elements of comedy, "R+G are dead" is an absurdist comedy that ends in tragedy..."

it sounds like a band 6 very englishy answer