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Here's a thought? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter blind spirit
- Start date
Ollz San
D.E.B
wow, interesting debates by both sides 
so interesting and generally well-put that I don't even know what we're all debating for anymore.
I don't think I have enough facts to make any informed judgements or such so I will just speak from experience.
I attended a Catholic systemic school up until year 10. So I guess that made us half-public half-private?
Facilities poor to the point that public schools seem heavenly. Teaching quality is slowly declining as the better teachers either retire or move to better paying schools. HSC results, oh, nothing really that can be showed off state-wide.
I guess it's pretty bad. There's only the good ol' tradition left. The discipline and perhaps rather nurturing approach. The emphasis is not only on the academic side but there is also the moral, values and beliefs. Unlike public schools there is more emphasis on discipline, manners, etc.
However I do think that 'facilities' play a part to some extent. We couldn't afford to have a D&T facility so the school couldn't offer the subject much to the dismay of some students.
The Art department is minimally equipped. Two art rooms for the whole school. Equipments are old and 'dying'. Art room isn't equipped for any digital work that can be of great use for the seniors.
They are just a couple of examples out of the many that are present.
Does anyone know what the deal is with systemic school? Logically they should be at least in similar state as public schools. But they seem to be in worse conditions despite the $$
Year 11 I was in an all-girl private school. 13k/14k fees.
It was great actually. In term of facilities I can't really think of any lackings. Teaching quality is generally good. In fact, there wasn't really anything wrong with the school. Almost perfect.
Obviously there's the strict discipline, the posh-y uniform, the stupid hat, etc. The athletic & swimming carnival, IGSSA, ISDA, dance festival, music festival and numerous other school activities. Another thing that was different: the people. Both schools are in the north shore but the people, the people are predominantly from different 'social class'. There were all these professors' kids, doctors' and lawyers' kids, the neurosurgeons' kids driven to school by BMWs, SAABs, etc.
The thing was the school seems to be attracting the more academically-challenged girls. Is there any correlation between wealth and academic intelligence? I don't know. I just know that most of them were smart. They were into school. They were enthusiastic. They were active, involved in anything they can join. And beneath, there was a subtle competitiveness. Subtle, but it was there alright. Lots of them applied for prefects. 22 were selected. The others weren't rejects, they get other jobs.
Unfortunately I couldn't survive. Shit happened, I dealt with it, I move on. But I wasn't the only one. A girl was hospitalised for anorexia, another for depression and another one has resorted to doing the hsc over 2 years because of an illness partly caused by depression. How many more are hiding psychological distress?
Can we all keep up with the expectations? How long till we break down?
Year 12: TAFE = public.
Limited subjects, limited 'facilities' (awesome library though).
Lots of stuff to cover in limited time.
Teaching quality is wonderful (xcept for Maths....*cringe*) - teachers are all experienced and mostly passionate.
And the freedom. man, gotta love that. after all those shits from school, it's heaven.
personal responsibility and control over one's own education. for once, everyone's treating you like an adult. not like you're some uneducated brats.
Also the freedom of speech and no more censorship. I think there are too many limitations and censorship going on at school. It's as though they're all somehow trying to protect us from the reality in the outside world. Like if they don't let us see it or learn about it then we'll remain obedient to any rules and regulations. I have a sense that schools (perhaps in particular private schools) are trying to program us into ignorant and "perfect" citizens.
the education system is rather, for lack of a better word, fucked up IMHO. or is there anyone who think otherwise?
I don't know, I just disagree with the idea of marking one's work.
Some of the syllabus (sp?) is also a bit sussed.
From yr 10 to yr 11 there's a steep jump. Subject selection more often than not is regrettable.
etc.
I'm tired. I wanna go to sleep.
so interesting and generally well-put that I don't even know what we're all debating for anymore.
I don't think I have enough facts to make any informed judgements or such so I will just speak from experience.
I attended a Catholic systemic school up until year 10. So I guess that made us half-public half-private?
Facilities poor to the point that public schools seem heavenly. Teaching quality is slowly declining as the better teachers either retire or move to better paying schools. HSC results, oh, nothing really that can be showed off state-wide.
I guess it's pretty bad. There's only the good ol' tradition left. The discipline and perhaps rather nurturing approach. The emphasis is not only on the academic side but there is also the moral, values and beliefs. Unlike public schools there is more emphasis on discipline, manners, etc.
However I do think that 'facilities' play a part to some extent. We couldn't afford to have a D&T facility so the school couldn't offer the subject much to the dismay of some students.
The Art department is minimally equipped. Two art rooms for the whole school. Equipments are old and 'dying'. Art room isn't equipped for any digital work that can be of great use for the seniors.
They are just a couple of examples out of the many that are present.
Does anyone know what the deal is with systemic school? Logically they should be at least in similar state as public schools. But they seem to be in worse conditions despite the $$
Year 11 I was in an all-girl private school. 13k/14k fees.
It was great actually. In term of facilities I can't really think of any lackings. Teaching quality is generally good. In fact, there wasn't really anything wrong with the school. Almost perfect.
Obviously there's the strict discipline, the posh-y uniform, the stupid hat, etc. The athletic & swimming carnival, IGSSA, ISDA, dance festival, music festival and numerous other school activities. Another thing that was different: the people. Both schools are in the north shore but the people, the people are predominantly from different 'social class'. There were all these professors' kids, doctors' and lawyers' kids, the neurosurgeons' kids driven to school by BMWs, SAABs, etc.
The thing was the school seems to be attracting the more academically-challenged girls. Is there any correlation between wealth and academic intelligence? I don't know. I just know that most of them were smart. They were into school. They were enthusiastic. They were active, involved in anything they can join. And beneath, there was a subtle competitiveness. Subtle, but it was there alright. Lots of them applied for prefects. 22 were selected. The others weren't rejects, they get other jobs.
Unfortunately I couldn't survive. Shit happened, I dealt with it, I move on. But I wasn't the only one. A girl was hospitalised for anorexia, another for depression and another one has resorted to doing the hsc over 2 years because of an illness partly caused by depression. How many more are hiding psychological distress?
Can we all keep up with the expectations? How long till we break down?
Year 12: TAFE = public.
Limited subjects, limited 'facilities' (awesome library though).
Lots of stuff to cover in limited time.
Teaching quality is wonderful (xcept for Maths....*cringe*) - teachers are all experienced and mostly passionate.
And the freedom. man, gotta love that. after all those shits from school, it's heaven.
personal responsibility and control over one's own education. for once, everyone's treating you like an adult. not like you're some uneducated brats.
Also the freedom of speech and no more censorship. I think there are too many limitations and censorship going on at school. It's as though they're all somehow trying to protect us from the reality in the outside world. Like if they don't let us see it or learn about it then we'll remain obedient to any rules and regulations. I have a sense that schools (perhaps in particular private schools) are trying to program us into ignorant and "perfect" citizens.
the education system is rather, for lack of a better word, fucked up IMHO. or is there anyone who think otherwise?
I don't know, I just disagree with the idea of marking one's work.
Some of the syllabus (sp?) is also a bit sussed.
From yr 10 to yr 11 there's a steep jump. Subject selection more often than not is regrettable.
etc.
I'm tired. I wanna go to sleep.
Kini Mini that was an excellent argument. May I just add one more point though? A lot of the families with daughters at my school struggle to send them there. In many cases, if the Govt. funding was eradicated, they would not be able to attend. This would mean that the already overflowing Public school system would be further inundated with students, and many schools could possibly collapse under the pressure.
Meanwhile, I don't want people to think that Private school kids have the best lives, and everything is peachy, because IT REALLY ISN'T!!! As Ollz San pointed out, eating disorders and illnesses have a very high rate in Private schools. I can think of about 40% of the girls in my year who have had serious eating disorders, and that doesn't count the people who only have their problems occasionally. People being hospitalised is no big thing at our school anymore, as it has happened so many times.
Oh, and another thing to clear up is the misconception people have about Private schools having the best teachers. Yeah, most of our staff are great, but there are a fair few who are learning the courses as they teach us...and don't even start me on the dodgy school counselors who blurt out your 'confidential' problems at staff meetings so that the whole entire school knows within a week.
Meanwhile, I don't want people to think that Private school kids have the best lives, and everything is peachy, because IT REALLY ISN'T!!! As Ollz San pointed out, eating disorders and illnesses have a very high rate in Private schools. I can think of about 40% of the girls in my year who have had serious eating disorders, and that doesn't count the people who only have their problems occasionally. People being hospitalised is no big thing at our school anymore, as it has happened so many times.
Oh, and another thing to clear up is the misconception people have about Private schools having the best teachers. Yeah, most of our staff are great, but there are a fair few who are learning the courses as they teach us...and don't even start me on the dodgy school counselors who blurt out your 'confidential' problems at staff meetings so that the whole entire school knows within a week.
Twintip
Member
In my opinion equality can't really exist without fairness to some degree, and if it can, fairness must come first. Kini mini you make an excellent series of points, but I hardly see this ideal based on an 'overall' outcome as 'fair'. I believe fairness must come before equality, because it is reasonable to assume that people with more money have had to have done 'something more' to get it (that may seem a little arrogant but that is definitely NOT the way I intend it. I just see it a little unreasonable to hinder people because they have money). I believe every school student deserves and EQUAL amount of money from the Government (that's where you're equality should come in IMO) and what they do with it should be up to them. That system would also be fair. At the moment we put up with this 'unfairness' because to protest against it would be futile (especially under a Labor state government I guess).
People mustn't forget that the public education system needs private schools. That is probably the reason why they at least give us a little bit. Every private school student is making public education better, because of the lop-sided allocation of funds between public students and private students.
As many have also mentioned, the private school stereotype is often way off the mark. My parents make sacrifices to send myself and my sister to private schools, sacrifices that parents of public school students may not have to make...
That system would also be fair. At the moment we put up with this 'unfairness' because to protest against it would be futile (especially under a Labor state government I guess).People mustn't forget that the public education system needs private schools. That is probably the reason why they at least give us a little bit. Every private school student is making public education better, because of the lop-sided allocation of funds between public students and private students.
As many have also mentioned, the private school stereotype is often way off the mark. My parents make sacrifices to send myself and my sister to private schools, sacrifices that parents of public school students may not have to make...
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kini mini
Active Member
The theory that the most intelligent people should be the best off doesn't really hold, you can inherit money, you can be lucky....
An explanation for this phenomenon at Grammar was that there may well be many talented fathers, but lots have trophy wives (attend a school function and see
) and the guy takes after his mum . Is this really a problem unique to private schools though? People can be under pressure wherever they are. Schools like Grammar place quite a bit of academic pressure, I suppose there's a lot of pressure to do well in sport over at Joeys for example.
This seems to happen more in girls' schools than boys' ones, especially where they want you to be "ladylike"
. I get the imptression it's a lot easier to be "gentlemanly" than to be "ladylike" . Very few schools do this though, and does anyone take these rules seriously anyway? In my final year at Grammar, the sole surviving student publication was quite left-wing and that wasn't censored at all. The education system isn't in crisis, but it could be much better managed than it is now IMO. I think marking is a naturally imperfect process, but you need some sort of feedback to learn.
Thank you
. However, I think the argument was that State and Federal governments should cease funding private schools and redirect that money to public schools. I don't think private schools would collapse either, but they would have to make severe budget cuts to survive in a much reduced form. As this is unlikely ever to happen under any government we don't need to speculate . Hindering people or ensuring that everyone in society makes an equal sacrifice for the common good? Two interpretations of the tax system
. In summary, you believe in formal equality and I believe in substantive equality . Come to law school and learn even more about equality . I am a political cynic and I believe that as far as education is concerned, the changing of governments is best summarised by a wonderful key ring I saw in year 7: "Same shit, different smell". Broadly speaking governments are interested in projecting an image of dynamism, chnage for change's sake to give the impression that they're doing something. This is what gave us a new HSC that I'm pleased to say solved some of the problems with the old but caused new ones, as well as being one of the worst implemented changes ever. Do you really think the overall situation would necessarily improve with a Liberal government? It might change, but not necessarily for the better.
Twintip
Member
I just might.Originally posted by kini mini
Hindering people or ensuring that everyone in society makes an equal sacrifice for the common good? Two interpretations of the tax system
Formal equality = equal sacrifice for everyone, right? Substantiative equality = sacrifice equal in proportion with people's affluence? If I've got this right, the current education system (like the tax system) is based loosely and very simply on substantiative equality. I don't think this is ideal but I'm not complaining, I just don't like public school students complaining about their situation when they still have it good under substantiative equality IMO.I don't know what I'd expect a change of Government to do to the education system. I'm guessing they'd be a bit kinder to private schools. There seems little point considering this at the moment anyway, Labor's going to be around for a couple more terms at least IMO.
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We only have to look at the tax system to see that our society aims for a system where everyone pays what they can.
The idea that you can base an argument on raw numbers is just plain stupid. $14k might hurt a private school student's but so might the costs a public school student's parents could have to pay (books, uniform etc.) Saying "because I pay more you deserve a shit school" is not at all fair. Sure, people on higher incomes subsidise those on lower incomes. It's the way our system works and it's the way it should.
Yes, some struggle bloody hard to pay for private schools. But some struggle bloody hard to pay for other schools too. Just because an amount of money doesn't seem astronomical to you doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.
The idea that you can base an argument on raw numbers is just plain stupid. $14k might hurt a private school student's but so might the costs a public school student's parents could have to pay (books, uniform etc.) Saying "because I pay more you deserve a shit school" is not at all fair. Sure, people on higher incomes subsidise those on lower incomes. It's the way our system works and it's the way it should.
Yes, some struggle bloody hard to pay for private schools. But some struggle bloody hard to pay for other schools too. Just because an amount of money doesn't seem astronomical to you doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.
Twintip
Member
Well of course it's not and no one is suggesting it is.
Private school students already subsidise public school students so I don't think public school students have much reason to complain under the current system. Maybe they want more - I think that's just them having a go at what private schools have and they don't, nothing more.I know it's not right to compare figures, but proportionally-speaking it still doesn't favour private schools. Remember this started with public school students having a go at the small amount of funding directed into private schools...
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Of course some people are just whingers on both sides of the fence.
What I was saying was an exaggerated version of the attitudes some private school students. I'm sure the great majority are great people with good attitudes; the same could be said for the silent majority of public school students.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my intent; all I'm saying is that immature mudslinging is a waste of everyone's time and Bored's bandwidth.
Personally, I think that the whole system is underfunded (just like I think the bus and train systems are underfunded.) We have a situation where teaching isn't a highly respected profession anymore -- that's because there's no money in schools except for the schools which have the opportunity to charge ridiculous fees. Good luck to those schools, I say. But that doesn't alter the fact that some schools are in a shit state because they can't fund themselves, and the situation isn't really getting any better.
But a bit of healthy debate is a Good Thing
What I was saying was an exaggerated version of the attitudes some private school students. I'm sure the great majority are great people with good attitudes; the same could be said for the silent majority of public school students.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my intent; all I'm saying is that immature mudslinging is a waste of everyone's time and Bored's bandwidth.
Personally, I think that the whole system is underfunded (just like I think the bus and train systems are underfunded.) We have a situation where teaching isn't a highly respected profession anymore -- that's because there's no money in schools except for the schools which have the opportunity to charge ridiculous fees. Good luck to those schools, I say. But that doesn't alter the fact that some schools are in a shit state because they can't fund themselves, and the situation isn't really getting any better.
But a bit of healthy debate is a Good Thing
Twintip
Member
Well said.
gronkboyslim
Member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2002
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- 149
- Gender
- Male
- HSC
- 2009
it was just about biggie
but ill kill all of yall
but ill kill all of yall
ensignkim113
New Member
Re: Re: Here's a thought?
Thats a harsh statement. Anyway, Joeys came 4th in the GPS for the HSC. I think we got 24th overall and we got 1st in the state for Physics and Primary Industries.
kini mini
Active Member
Re: Re: Re: Here's a thought?
. Who did come last then?
That's much better than I thought, I suppose I was mistaken, apologies
. Who did come last then?Without disparaging the achievements of those guys, it's the achievement of the group as a whole not individuals that is important IMO.
Procras_witfood
New Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Messages
- 24
In all honesty, I think all that money just buys them a better chance of getting a higher UAI coz there's more smart people in private schools...it's a denser population if you know what I mean.
I go to a middle of the range private school. My fees are about $5000 a year. Most of the time I can see where it's going, but they should use it to get the sticks out of our teacher's arses.
Seriously, has anyone's school had a "Sock Blitz?" We have a "Student Handbook" which states that we must wear white ankle socks and not ANKLETS.
Since ankle socks are 10 times daggier than ankle socks and cause a horror tan line, everyone wears anklets. So the whole faculty got peeved big time and got all of us who were wearing anklets and sent letters home...some were even sent home just to change their socks!
You would think that they'd spend their time doing more useful things like, I dunno, getting the pot and cigs out of the girls toilets?
Those are one of the pitfalls of a private school, all that money frees up time, so they have more time to annoy the hell out of the student body.
If I had kids, I wouldn't send them to a private school. I'd send them to a progressive school like Reddam House in Bondi (yes, I know they're classified as private but they don't have the same regimentation as say, Kings or Ravenswood).
I go to a middle of the range private school. My fees are about $5000 a year. Most of the time I can see where it's going, but they should use it to get the sticks out of our teacher's arses.
Seriously, has anyone's school had a "Sock Blitz?" We have a "Student Handbook" which states that we must wear white ankle socks and not ANKLETS.
Since ankle socks are 10 times daggier than ankle socks and cause a horror tan line, everyone wears anklets. So the whole faculty got peeved big time and got all of us who were wearing anklets and sent letters home...some were even sent home just to change their socks!
You would think that they'd spend their time doing more useful things like, I dunno, getting the pot and cigs out of the girls toilets?
Those are one of the pitfalls of a private school, all that money frees up time, so they have more time to annoy the hell out of the student body.
If I had kids, I wouldn't send them to a private school. I'd send them to a progressive school like Reddam House in Bondi (yes, I know they're classified as private but they don't have the same regimentation as say, Kings or Ravenswood).
Hahaha procras_witfood, I hear you! You are not the only one who feels that their school's rules are absolutely ridiculous, bordering on insane. Our school has constant sock checks, but wait for it...our socks must have two fine black lines at the top (regulation socks sold at ridiculous prices, only at the school's uniform shop), and must be folded in a particular way. Once we had an English lesson where our teacher walked in, and asked us to stand on top of the tables so she could check our shoes and socks were the correct ones (yes, we get told what particular style, brand and make of shoe we are to wear). Also, we cannot wear our jumpers in public without wearing our blazers, and we are not to be seen eating in school uniform outside of school grounds (promoting anorexia). Oh, and we must wear hats and ribbons too. Seriously, you'd think that they would have issues of more substance on their minds, rather than wearing certain socks and ribbons!!!
Procras_witfood
New Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2003
- Messages
- 24
Gee, I thought I had it bad...
Going on TOP of the desks??? Holy cow. From what I can gather, you must go to an all girls school because if we were told to go on top of the desks, we could actually complain that the teacher was sexually harassing us.
We have to wear our blazers outside of the school grounds as well. I still don't understand that rule...what do they wan't to do, make sure the school crest is clearly visible as advertisement so people would WANT to go to our school???
My goodness, that rule you said about not eating outside with your school uniform on....wow, that tops it all I reckon.
My condolences
hehehehehe. Yep, it is a girls school, and yep, we hate our rules!!!
There was an article in todays Daily Telegraph whining about the inequality in the amount of funding private and public schools will be getting in 2004.
Ugh! it really irritates me...can't they find something slightly more meaningful to whinge about, such as the inequality in natural resource distribution between 1st and 3rd world countries?!Twintip
Member
The Daily Telegraph gears itself towards that sort of reader.