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Hezbollah's Victory (2 Viewers)

ZabZu

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sam04u said:
You're very right.
What irks me though, is that today during the Russian and Georgian conflict, the U.S is foolishly pressuring Russia into a ceasefire, and claiming Russia is reacting disproportionately. Where was Bush in July 2006? Why was there no mention of disproportionate force then?
The US thought it would be in their interests for Israel to continue the war. They hoped Israel would weaken Hezbollah. Also theres the fact that Israel's one of America's closest allies and as you say the welfare of the Lebanese doesnt rate very high in Washington.

Georgia wants to have closer relations with the West and join the EU and NATO. Also, I suppose the situation reminds the US of Soviet aggression in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in 1956 and 1968.

Why is it foolish that the US is pressuring a ceasefire?
 

G.e.M.z

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Hezbollah are not protecting Lebanon- they are trying to take over it and make it an Islamic State

They are stopping Lebanon from flourishing and all their communication lines are illegal and should be destroyed

Having said that- they aren't the only forces stopping Lebanon from achieving its full potential
Syria is and always has been jealous of Lebanon and the beautiful country that it is

Within HALF AN HOUR of a President being elected the restaurants in downtown began to open and people filled the streets
No thanks to Hezbollah who finally moved their tents
I don't know why this topic title is called 'Hezbollah's Victory'?
What have they achieved? - sure they can show their force by smashing cars and rioting in the streets - but what is it achieving? The Lebanese people are the most resiliant people and they always bounce back

It is such a beautiful country - even with all the war and fighting

One random note: Many Lebanese in Australia think that they are acting like Lebs being 'fully sick' and what not
If only they could actually GO to Lebanon and just see how their behaviour in no way correlates to the Lebanese living in Lebanon
 

schooliskool

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G.E.M.Z about time some one came to the rescue ive been losing these arguments for like a week or more sam4u is like rippin into me 24-7 mainly becuase i cant write sentences properly. and have point of argument but jst wanna say i 100% agree with your post, but sadly SAM4U will find one way or another to try and take it part,quote evry little word you typed, and put another sophisticated argument in proving you wrong.

but anyways thanks for supporting the argument that hezbollah arent helping the problems facing lebanon theyre jst worsening them.
 

sam04u

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G.e.M.z said:
Hezbollah are not protecting Lebanon- they are trying to take over it and make it an Islamic State
You say this even though in the most recent Lebanese unity government, after Hezbollah's victory over the U.S backed element in Lebanon, Suleiman was appointed President. Suleiman is infact a Christian, who is well supported by the majority of Lebanese Christians. They have done nothing to change the status of Lebanese Christians, and infact have made it very clear that they do not want to make Lebanon an Islamic state.

They are stopping Lebanon from flourishing and all their communication lines are illegal and should be destroyed
That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Their communication lines are vital for Lebanon's security. Even those with an opposing view accept that. But just out of interest, what makes you think it's illegal?

Having said that- they aren't the only forces stopping Lebanon from achieving its full potential
Syria is and always has been jealous of Lebanon and the beautiful country that it is
Okay, it's official. You, are, a moron. If it wasn't for Syria, Lebanon could quite well still be under civil war. You do know that if anything, Syria is a neutal factor in Lebanon. They're not jealous, and they're not hindering Lebanon's security. It's people like you however, that for some unexplainable reason think it's in the interest of Lebanon to support a country on the other side of the world, rather than Lebanon's own neighbour, Syria.

I don't know why this topic title is called 'Hezbollah's Victory'?
I'll explain this one to you, since you don't seem to understand what constitutes a victory.

In 2006, Hezbollah sought out to have Lebanese prisoners which were being held in Israel released. As usual, Israel just ignored Hezbollah's request for the release of prisoners. So in response, Hezbollah attacked an armoured vehicle, and captured two Israeli soldiers, these Israeli soldiers were injured during the skirmish, and died shortly after. Hezbollah offered Israel a prisoner exchange, but they denied it. At that point Israel had begun it's bombing campaign, which tore down many buildings in Lebanon. They were not willing to release the Lebanese prisoners. Instead they demanded Hezbollah disarm, they demanded the release of the captured prisoners, they demanded Nasrallah's head (ofcourse that was the understanding) and they demanded a 'buffer zone', which really just is a de facto land grab.

On August 14, 2006 (which is today, my birthday) the pressure from the international community, along with Israel's failure to achieve any of their goals after a month of intense fighting, foreced Israel to accept a cease fire. Israel failed to disarm Hezbollah, Israel failed to install a 'buffer zone', Israel failed to assassinate or do harm to Nasrallah.

Then in July, 2008, Hezbollah's victory was finalised, Israel agreed to a prisoner exchange. In turn not only recognising their defeat, but also recognising Hezbollah.

What have they achieved?
The ability, for a country the size of Lebanon, to do one hell of a job defending their sovereignty. For a country the size of Lebanon, Hezbollah does one kick ass job of defending Lebanon. They were capable of destroying a modern Israeli war ship, and many modern Israeli tanks. Considering Israel is undoubtedly a military power, Hezbollah has by anybodies standards proven their capability. What they've achieved, is the potential for Lebanon to defend itself. And that is with Hezbollah alone. If you combine Hezbollah with Lebanon's standing army, Lebanon can protect itself from occupation, and also can protect it's interests. For a small country, that is quite the achievement. If you've read my past posts, I fully support Hezbollah merging into the government, and their military wing training and then merging into the army of Lebanon.

It is such a beautiful country - even with all the war and fighting
You're right. Many times people like you make fantastic claims of Lebanon being the Paris of the middle east. Well the funny thing is France has one of the world's best defence systems, something crucial to any countries security.

One random note: Many Lebanese in Australia think that they are acting like Lebs being 'fully sick' and what not
If only they could actually GO to Lebanon and just see how their behaviour in no way correlates to the Lebanese living in Lebanon
Okay, this just confirms everything I thought about you based on your ludicrous assumptions. You don't know enough. Very often poor people in our rich society, will reject authority figures, mainly due to the large class difference between them and authority figures. Many times they're patronised by these authority figures, and learn to accept the inherent discrimination in the middle-classed mass of authority figures. I'm not talking about "racial" discrimination, not that there isn't enough of that. But mainly, "class" discrimination.

But you see this problem is much worse among Lebanese for a reason, which is really irrelevant to this topic, but I thought I might take the time to educate you on it. You see in the 80s and early 90s, there was a major influx of Lebanese refugees from the Lebanese civil war after the (second?) intifada of the Palestinian resistance. Many of these Lebanese (including my parents) fled the country to escape the war and came to Australia. Most of them could barely speak a word of english, but the industry of Australia was kind to them, they put them on decent salaries and gave them jobs.

Some of the time they worked in Steel Plantations as Boiler Makers, or in the Ford Company, or in the vast booming Australian Industry. They worked to the bone, and earned money to bring their familes to Australia, or sometimes moved up to the middle class. Ofcourse this period of success was short-lived. These companies soon sacked scores of Lebanese, making them redundant. At the same time Australia was rapidly changing, these people which were warmly welcomed by industrial Australia, were rejected by the service based nature of the country.

That's probably where the "Kebab shop" jokes started. These skilled (in their fields) immigrant workers who were made redundant, had very little options in what they could do. Many times the people you see operating these establishments have been doing so since much of the manufacturing industry was changed. Ofcourse a hard thing for me to accept (but is absolutely true) Keating did not enough to stop it.

'Industrial graveyard'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKN4qWo7x1Y


You see, don't say I'm not kind. You get a top class education right here. (Also it's my b-day, say Happy b-day!)
 
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AppleNader

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sam04u, I was just wondering, on a personal level, what have you done for a cause you seem very passionate about?
 

sam04u

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AppleNader said:
sam04u, I was just wondering, on a personal level, what have you done for a cause you seem very passionate about?
Which cause is that? I'm passionate about many causes.

I'll assume you mean Hezbollah. Well, in reality, there is nothing I can do to support them other than giving them a voice. They speak Arabic, which is a language I can't even speak properly. So it's damn near impossible for a typical Australian to not just accept the blanket terms offered by our allies in the United States and Israel, that they are 'terrorists'.

Infact, Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. In explaining that, as best as I can, here in Australia. I can only hope that it may one day lead to molding the perception of Australia. Hezbollah is currently classified as a terrorist organisation in Australia. Even though their only crime is defending Lebanon's sovereignty, and at times fighting with questionable tactics due to their unsophisticated arsenal. ie;(ballistic rockets).
 

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At least 14 people have been killed by a blast in the centre of the Lebanese city of Tripoli, medical sources say.

Security officials said a bomb went off close to a bus whose passengers included a number of off-duty soldiers.

The port city has been the scene of sectarian fighting in recent months in which more than 20 people have died.

The attack came a day after the new national unity government won a vote of confidence and as President Michel Suleiman was due to travel to Syria. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7557759.stm
Of course its hizbollah who did it. They are the biggest killer of lebanese for the past 30 yrs
 

ZabZu

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sam04u said:
That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. Their communication lines are vital for Lebanon's security. Even those with an opposing view accept that. But just out of interest, what makes you think it's illegal?
I dont believe Israel is a threat to Lebanon if they are not harbouring radicals or have groups that are a threat towards Israel (such as Hezbollah or in the past the PLO).

The thing about the conflict in 2006, yes Israel was humilated because they couldnt stop the rockets, didnt get their soldiers back, etc. However, Lebanon was devastated.

sam04u said:
Infact, Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. In explaining that, as best as I can, here in Australia. I can only hope that it may one day lead to molding the perception of Australia. Hezbollah is currently classified as a terrorist organisation in Australia. Even though their only crime is defending Lebanon's sovereignty, and at times fighting with questionable tactics due to their unsophisticated arsenal. ie;(ballistic rockets).
I disagree with you here. I believe Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. One of Hezbollah's goals is to destroy Israel. Also, they arent resisting against occupation because none of Lebanon is occupied by Israel. According to the UN the Shebba Farms is part of the Golan Heights.

Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army. This is ridiculous. Hezbollah is not the government yet they are the most powerful military force in Lebanon. Even so I believe for true democracy to occur the military needs to be completely independent of the political process.

Happy bday Sam.
 
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sam04u

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Lebanon confidence vote endorses Hezbollah
Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:36:07 GMT


Confidence vote in Lebanon's national unity cabinet endorses Hezbollah's right to use all options to liberate territories occupied by Israel.

One hundred members of the 128-seat parliament voted for cabinet on Tuesday.

The confidence vote endorsed the government's drafting of a policy statement that supports the Lebanese right to reclaim “Israeli-occupied” lands including the Shebaa Farms and the divided border village of Ghajar.

The confidence vote also granted Hezbollah the right to keep its arms to defend the country against aggressors by using all options.

The mountainous Shebaa Farms area, consisting of 14 farms rich in water resources, is located on the western slopes of Jabal al-Sheikh and measures 25 square kilometers (10 square miles).

The Shebaa Farms that were occupied in 1967 by Israel belong to Lebanon; however, Israel claims they are part of Syrian territory it conquered along with the Golan Heights, and should be dealt with as part of negotiations with the Syrians
A major Victory for Hezbollah internally.

MissSarajevo said:
Of course its hizbollah who did it. They are the biggest killer of lebanese for the past 30 yrs
You're a fool if you think Hezbollah had anything to do with that. Just moments after they were given the green light to remain armed by the Lebanese unity government.

ZabZu said:
I dont believe Israel is a threat to Lebanon if they are not harbouring radicals or have groups that are a threat towards Israel (such as Hezbollah or in the past the PLO).
ZabZu I'm going to have to disagree with you on that point. If Lebanon gives up the right to defend itself, which is an absolutely stupid move, Israel becomes an even greater threat to Lebanon and Lebanon's interests in the region.

One of Hezbollah's goals is to destroy Israel.
I think Israel is doing a good enough job at that without Hezbollah. But regardless, wanting to destroy Israel, is not neccessarily terrorism.

Also, they arent resisting against occupation because none of Lebanon is occupied by Israel. According to the UN the Shebba Farms is part of the Golan Heights.
Zabzu that's a ridiculously inaccurate statement. Israel has openly said "the Shebaa farms are not ours", Syria has said "the Shebaa farms are not ours", the Palestinians have said "the Shebaa farms are not ours".

Now there's only one other country in that region. It starts with an L and ends with an N. It's not Liechtenstein, that's right ZabZu, it's Lebanon. I just don't get why some people are in denial on this issue. The Shebaa farm area belongs to Lebanon. It's as simple as that.

Hezbollah is more powerful than the Lebanese army. This is ridiculous. Hezbollah is not the government yet they are the most powerful military force in Lebanon.
Hezbollah is doing everything it can, ZabZu, it's only a matter of time before those two things are one in the same with notable exceptions. eg; Lebanon will not favour one religion over another.

I'm proud Lebanon has come such a long way, and is now even working to further bridge the ties between themselves and Syria. It's funny though, how we have these people who swear they have an understanding of the perception in Lebanon, yet, when these figures are released it indicates that they have no idea what they're talking about.

*ponders why that is*
 

katie tully

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Curious Sam.

If tomorrow Israel said 'we're putting down guns, no more fighting, hello happy neighbours' and Hezbollah still decided to attack, could you condone this?
 

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1,2,3,4 WE DON'T WANT YOUR RACIST WAR
5,6,7,8 WE WILL NOT COOPERATE!

SHARON IS A BUTCHER!
SHARON IS A BUTCHER!
SHARON IS A BUTCHER!

hahaha! those are some of the chants I've learnt after 5 years of protesting. good times. sam, do you know of any anti israel protests coming up?

i've also learned a wealth of arabic chants that most of you won't understand.
 

ZabZu

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sam04u said:
But regardless, wanting to destroy Israel, is not neccessarily terrorism.
Thats your view. The US, EU, Canada, Australia and others disagree.

sam04u said:
Zabzu that's a ridiculously inaccurate statement. Israel has openly said "the Shebaa farms are not ours", Syria has said "the Shebaa farms are not ours"
Your right, I think the mix up occurred due to an incorrect map that showed the Shebba Farms as part of Syria. It looks as though in the near future Israel is going to withdraw from the Golan Heights, given that they are currently negotiating with Syria.

Given that the Golan Heights return to Syria and Lebanon, Hezbollah will change its tone from "we're fighting Israel so we can liberate Lebanon" to "we're fighting Israel to liberate Palestine". There will be no difference in Hezbollah's attitude towards Israel.

I believe land/prisoners held by Israel should only be returned to its hostile Arab neighbours if there is a period of peace. Also, Israel shouldnt hold prisoners indefinately as they do now. Their current policies of only giving back prisoners in exchange for Israeli soliders encourage the kidnapping and killing of young Israels. Most of them are aged between 18 and 21 since most Israelis have to serve 2/3 years in the army after they leave high school.
 
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schooliskool

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just wanting to know sam4u what are your views on the LEBANESE FORCES PHALANGIST PARTY ?
 

sam04u

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katie tully said:
Curious Sam.

If tomorrow Israel said 'we're putting down guns, no more fighting, hello happy neighbours' and Hezbollah still decided to attack, could you condone this?
Katie that's a good question. If Israel is willing to accept it's neighbours and their legal borders, including the Palestinians legal 1948 borders, there would be no conflict in the middle east.

I would not support Hezbollah attacking Israel at all. There is a difference between attacking and defending. Due to Israeli occupation of Lebanese territory, Hezbollah is actually enacting their legal right to defend against an illegal occupation.

Dr Chau said:
1,2,3,4 WE DON'T WANT YOUR RACIST WAR
5,6,7,8 WE WILL NOT COOPERATE!

SHARON IS A BUTCHER!
SHARON IS A BUTCHER!
SHARON IS A BUTCHER!

hahaha! those are some of the chants I've learnt after 5 years of protesting. good times. sam, do you know of any anti israel protests coming up?

i've also learned a wealth of arabic chants that most of you won't understand.
Excellent. I don't know of any actually. But if you do, please drop me a PM! I'd love to attend one.

Given that the Golan Heights return to Syria and Lebanon, Hezbollah will change its tone from "we're fighting Israel so we can liberate Lebanon" to "we're fighting Israel to liberate Palestine". There will be no difference in Hezbollah's attitude towards Israel.
Yep, and rightly so. You've actually come a long way ZabZu. Your last few posts haven't conflicted with my views very much. Although we do have slight differences in opinion. For instance, I believe Lebanon does have an interest in seeing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict settled. Because everytime there is a Palestinian Intifiada, or a resistance, Lebanon is thrown into chaos and civil war. Lebanon can't deal with another one of those. Israel is going to have to reach a settlement with the Palestinians. Which they seem to be supporting lately. Albeit, the 1967 borders rather than the 1948 borders the Palestinians are legally entitled too.

just wanting to know sam4u what are your views on the LEBANESE FORCES PHALANGIST PARTY ?
Naturally I'm opposed to to them. Not because they purport to be Christians, or that they're opposed to Hezbollah, but rather that atleast in past history they have not acted in the interest of the Lebanese, or the Lebanese interests in the region. (Which includes stability in Lebanon.) Infact, they have a very bloody history, mainly towards fellow Lebanese. (Including their joint contribution to the Lebanese Civil War)

Tell me if you disagree though.
 

Dr.Chau

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sam04u said:
Katie that's a good question. If Israel is willing to accept it's neighbours and their legal borders, including the Palestinians legal 1948 borders, there would be no conflict in the middle east.

I would not support Hezbollah attacking Israel at all. There is a difference between attacking and defending. Due to Israeli occupation of Lebanese territory, Hezbollah is actually enacting their legal right to defend against an illegal occupation.


Excellent. I don't know of any actually. But if you do, please drop me a PM! I'd love to attend one.


Yep, and rightly so. You've actually come a long way ZabZu. Your last few posts haven't conflicted with my views very much. Although we do have slight differences in opinion. For instance, I believe Lebanon does have an interest in seeing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict settled. Because everytime there is a Palestinian Intifiada, or a resistance, Lebanon is thrown into chaos and civil war. Lebanon can't deal with another one of those. Israel is going to have to reach a settlement with the Palestinians. Which they seem to be supporting lately. Albeit, the 1967 borders rather than the 1948 borders the Palestinians are legally entitled too.


Naturally I'm opposed to to them. Not because they purport to be Christians, or that they're opposed to Hezbollah, but rather that atleast in past history they have not acted in the interest of the Lebanese, or the Lebanese interests in the region. (Which includes stability in Lebanon.) Infact, they have a very bloody history, mainly towards fellow Lebanese. (Including their joint contribution to the Lebanese Civil War)

Tell me if you disagree though.
Yep. I'll let you know if I find out about any. Do you remember seeing or hearing about that protest in town hall that turned violent? I was at that one. It was about 5 years ago. That was one of my first protests.
 

schooliskool

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i wont disagree with you sam4u on this one.
after reading a few books written by a journalist known as jonothan. C. Randall and other authors that arent biased or one sided for any cuase i would say the phalangist party made a few mistakes with their actions especially after the assination of their leader bashir gemayel but even before that with the killing of relatives such as children or thewives of political leaders of opposite parties i found that wrong.

but the history of bloodthirsty killing is in the christians of lebanon through out history i mean these warlord and family feuds and vendettas theyve been going on for a very long time. but in the case of them not haveing helped lebanon progress yes thats true in the sense that the old generation still cant put their differences aside for a better a lebanon , also another problem that faces lebanon is the different sects of islam and christianity , i do believe that for a better lebanon all religous backing or influence should be banned from politics and thats the problem i believe will face lebanon until they actually separate religion and politics then just maybe theyre would be a little peace.
 

ZabZu

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sam04u said:
Katie that's a good question. If Israel is willing to accept it's neighbours and their legal borders, including the Palestinians legal 1948 borders, there would be no conflict in the middle east.
Most Arabs would accept Israel but there will still be Islamic extremists who wont stop fighting until Israel is completely destroyed.

sam04u said:
Yep, and rightly so. You've actually come a long way ZabZu. Your last few posts haven't conflicted with my views very much. Although we do have slight differences in opinion.
We have similar views regarding many things but some things that we disagree about are major issues. Final borders, you believe Hezbollah is a resistance organisation, you think Israel is a terrorist state, you think Israel is an aparthied state, etc. All things which I strongly disagree with.

You know your stuff but i feel its been distorted by a strong left-wing bias. I suppose we are both biased. Your a Lebanese Muslim (Sunni right?) and im a secular Jew who believes in a Jewish homeland and has been to Israel. Although I do support the two-state solution (based on 1967 borders) and am critical of some of Israel's policies/actions.

sam04u said:
For instance, I believe Lebanon does have an interest in seeing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict settled. Because everytime there is a Palestinian Intifiada, or a resistance, Lebanon is thrown into chaos and civil war. Lebanon can't deal with another one of those.
Your right. After 1948 and again in 1967 thousands of Palestinians fled to Lebanon. Theres also when the PLO relocated to Lebanon which later resulted in Israel invading Lebanon.
 
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