IDF Flotilla Incident Official Thread (4 Viewers)

[Richard Gilmore]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Dude, you don't understand because you're a little slow.

I listed those examples of misinformation as reasons as to why we shouldn't trust anything put out by the IDF. That point was abundantly clear...well, not to you apparently, so I'll re state it [more] clearly for your benefit: The IDF is known for unreliable reporting, misinformation, and underestimating any damage done by the IDF. It is foolish to view those videos, or anything put out by the IDF or the Israeli Government (by proxy), as near factual.

Would I accept the word of Hamas as fact? No, almost certainly not. I'd give it about the same weight as I give information from the IDF. Independant reporting from the SMH, or a UN report, I would lend a lot more weight to. And just to let you know, independant sources lately have been placing the blame almost entirely upon Israel.

BUT THATS BECAUSE THE UN IS BIAS AMIRITE?

Re war crimes: I think your point might also have been that because everyone commits war crimes, then it's ok for Israel to do so and to return an eye for an eye. This is wrong and downright dangerous - it's barbaric and almost resembles the view of terrorists. In the scope of this debate, who commits more war crimes than anyone else is of little concern when placing the blame. Evaluate the incident external to (almost) everything else and realise that the IDF commandos - trained to kill and known for violence - boarded that vessel with violent intent and violent actions (a point addressed in my other thread, corroborated by accounts from actual journalists, rather than IDF spin doctors). And it resulted in a scuffle and the deaths of ten civilians and no IDF commandos.

Fighting back against violent IDF commandos is not worthy of death. Truth be told, I think it's deserving of a medal.

Watch the news, I told you they were trying to make martyrs of themselves, look at them all going back to protests, they got exactly what they wanted from Israel. They wanted Israel to kill a few of them, they knew the whole world would get behind them.

Yeah they wanted the world's attention on Israel. So what? What's your point? Does that make Israel's over-the-top, outrageous and probably illegal murder of ten civillians excusable? Of course not. I don't know what kind of convoluted logic would lead you to that conclusion. Probably the same logic that led you away from the side of the activists in the first place.

And typical, half the people on these forums all jump to the defense of the 'unarmed activists'. Watch the videos, because unlike opinion, they don't lie.

I've already addressed this point. But I'll also add that I, unlike you, am very well informed about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Don't insinuate otherwise.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

that's cause they are terrorists that's why they kill people, are you saying that Israel is a terrorist as well?

So you are saying terrorists have the right to kill innocents but innocent soldiers cannot defend themselves against violent terrorist sympathisers?

 

[Garygaz]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Yeah you obviously don't get my point, because the initial reports came out saying that the activists didn't even have any weapons at all. that was proven wrong.

Then they said that they didn't provoke the israelis, wrong again.

as if you can't accept both sides are clearly slanting the story. all you care about is vindicating some bullshit martyr seeking political terrorists.

No i have no idea where you think i made the point of making war crimes is okay. Your point was that israel had and therefore couldnt be trusted. I said every country commits war crimes so under your own conditions you can't trust anyone..

 

[JonathanM]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

itt: jonathanM tries to act tough. i've been lurking at this website for a while - as you can probably tell from the join date. i always enjoy the way, with a new member, you act tough. with old members such as sam04u or tacoterrorist or nebuchanezzar, you always acted with restraint. and yet i make the same point as the people before me? you're a complete tool.

Ha, you have an inflated ego about your join date? You're pathetic.

just to make it clear, my point was that the death of one innocent civillian on board an aid vessel is completely outrageous, and i think that adjusting the death toll to appeal to a pro-israel point of view is completely insane. 19 is horrible x 19. 10 is horrible x 10. it's all horrific. adjusting the toll from 19 to 10 does no favours for israels international reputation.

It's not a pro-Israel point of view, the 'activists' have reverted their figures to 10 as well. And don't try to pretend you care about those killed, it's just more fuel for you, as far as your concerned. If you cared so much about individual human lives you'd be concerning yourself with much more serious issues than the Middle East conflict, like in the African/Asian region where there are much more serious issues.

citation of equivalent example needed.

Australia regularly boards illegal vessels (like the debacle in 2003 when a navy vessel pursued one vessel for over 7000km, well outside its national waters) such as illegal fishing vessels, those carrying asylum seekers and any other unidentified/unknown vessel.

probably because in those situations, a normal, legal, moral military operation (and this one satisfied zero of those criterion) wouldn't involve the use of excessive force from the get go. and just to be sure you know:

Gaza flotilla raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's nothing in the activists account that is at odds with the pattern of behaviour that characterises the IDF. The IDF account on the other hand, is entirely out of character. I know whose account I, and other rational people, will take as fact.

so yes, the word "attack" is justified.

What the fuck are you yabbing on about? Israel fulfilled every single legal and moral criterion. It gave the ships an opportunity to turn around, it gave them advanced warning that they would be boarded if they did not turn around, it boarded initially with non-lethal weaponry, prepared for a non-violent encounter (as you do with those who claim to be "peace" activists) little did they know aboard were Islamic militants. And most importantly, and this has been irrefutably proven with video evidence, both from Israeli, media and activist sources, so you cannot deny it (even though I know you will try) - they exercised extreme restraint, not only not firing when first fired upon, but waiting until a few Israelis were within inches of losing their lives to begin firing upon the militants.

This is almost like Lebanon, 2006 all over again. Where the world then rushed to deliver a cease-fire that would deliver Hezbollah, an Islamic fundamentalist organisation set to bring about its own version of Armageddon, a clear psychological victory. Now it is directly supporting that axis of evil; Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran by marginalising Israel, attempting to delegitimise the right it has to exist peacefully as a Jewish state within its own borders and furthermore, and most troublesomely, by supporting the possible smuggling of weapons to terrorist organisations.

I remind you all that the only difference between terrorist organisations like Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda and Islamic Jihad is the line between Sunni and Shiite, a line which is becoming increasingly blurred in the battle with Western free civilization. If Hamas were instead operating in South-East Asia, it would be them terrorising innocent Indonesian and foreign, including Australians.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Yeah you obviously don't get my point, because the initial reports came out saying that the activists didn't even have any weapons at all. that was proven wrong.

They had some knives, according to a picture provided by the IDF.

I urge you to find me an example of a boat which doesn't have a knife on board. Or the various DANGEROUS TOOLS that were found in that photo (which, to me, look like common tools to find within a flotilla). Furthermore, the reports by people on board the flotilla suggest that this was false. Furthermore, can you find me an IDF commando who was injured by a knife? No? But they knew they were coming since they were warned multiple times! Well, I mean, that doesn't make any sense! Why would they have these knives on board and not use them!?

Then they said that they didn't provoke the israelis, wrong again.

If you'd care to read the experiences of those onboard the flotilla, I'm sure you'll find abundant evidence to the contrary. The Israeli's attacked first, with questionable legal right, with undue levels of force

as if you can't accept both sides are clearly slanting the story. all you care about is vindicating some bullshit martyr seeking political terrorists.

You just lost the game.

No i have no idea where you think i made the point of making war crimes is okay. Your point was that israel had and therefore couldnt be trusted. I said every country commits war crimes so under your own conditions you can't trust anyone..

Oh ok. Well, The Sydney Morning Herald doesn't commit war crimes.

:rofl:

 

[badquinton304]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

So you are saying terrorists have the right to kill innocents but innocent soldiers cannot defend themselves against violent terrorist sympathisers?

You know well that he was not trying to say that it is perfectly acceptable for a terrorist to kill people, no one here thinks that. Some people are just saying that israel is more civilised and sane than a bunch of batshit terrorists hence the international community should bloody well be able to count on israel to act more responsibly than the terrorists. Don't fuck around, trying to say that people here condone terrorism, it is a disgusting example of cheap internet point scoring.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

It's not a pro-Israel point of view, the 'activists' have reverted their figures to 10 as well. And don't try to pretend you care about those killed, it's just more fuel for you, as far as your concerned. If you cared so much about individual human lives you'd be concerning yourself with much more serious issues than the Middle East conflict, like in the African/Asian region where there are much more serious issues.

I'm under no obligation to care for anything in particular. I find the Israel-Palestine conflict interesting so I focus my attention on it. Especially so given the privilige and wealth that Israel is exposed to. Especially so given that the solution is so close. Who are you to tell me where to focus my attention?

And the amount of aid that flows towards Gazans - an impoverished peoples - is paltry. I think that offers a humanitarian argument to justify my focus on this issue.

But turning the spotlight back on you, you piece of filthy scum. Why do you focus on Israel? What flimsy, faith driven tie do you have to that land? Why are you over there? Why do you care so much? Why do you spend so much time defending people who are amongst the most priviliged and wealthy in the world?

Australia regularly boards illegal vessels (like the debacle in 2003 when a navy vessel pursued one vessel for over 7000km, well outside its national waters) such as illegal fishing vessels, those carrying asylum seekers and any other unidentified/unknown vessel.

aside from the fact that you've supplied zero citations...

investigating human trafficking on the high seas is permissible under international law.
i'm willing to bet that australia would only follow illegal fishing vessels if they had commited illegal fishing previously, or currently, within our (legal) maritime claim
i don't know what you're talking about with the 2003 thing. citation please

anyhow, i asked for an equivalent example, and you have not delivered. Please provide me with an example of when Australia boarded an aid vessel in international waters because it suspected it of some potentially illegal activity.

What the fuck are you yabbing on about? Israel fulfilled every single legal and moral criterion.

Well, no it didn't. At all. I point you to the wiki article where it addresses the legal arguments both for and against the boarding of that vessel. It's not clear cut at all.

It gave the ships an opportunity to turn around, it gave them advanced warning that they would be boarded if they did not turn around, it boarded initially with non-lethal weaponry, prepared for a non-violent encounter (as you do with those who claim to be "peace" activists)

See above. This is not true. Do not attempt to bend the truth by appealing to the "facts: given out by the IDF.

This is almost like Lebanon, 2006 all over again

funny the way the world (with the exception of the US), was united against israel then as well. do you ever get the feeling that the unrivalled hatred directed towards israel might mean something? perhaps the disgust that the world reserves for israel isn't indicative of anti-semitism, but perhaps it's indicates that israel is just a reprehensible state who conducts itself with no restraint, fulfilling every criterion of a rogue state.

and for the love of god, stop typing like a dickhead, repeating neocon lines from the bush era.

 

[murphyad]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

This is almost like Lebanon, 2006 all over again. Where the world then rushed to deliver a cease-fire that would deliver Hezbollah, an Islamic fundamentalist organisation set to bring about its own version of Armageddon, a clear psychological victory. Now it is directly supporting that axis of evil; Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran by marginalising Israel, attempting to delegitimise the right it has to exist peacefully as a Jewish state within its own borders and furthermore, and most troublesomely, by supporting the possible smuggling of weapons to terrorist organisations.

You shitbag.

If you want to be taken seriously, DO NOT bitch and moan about poor old Israel being 'delegitimised'. It's OBVIOUS that Israel is the major power in the region, armed to the teeth and with US support to boot. The blockade of Gaza (which was the whole reason for this flotilla) was initiated by Israel. So were the settlements blah blah blah (even so, that doesn't excuse Hamas rocket attacks and whatnot). Yes those 'activists' were asking for trouble but this was NOT about the marginalisation of the Israeli state. This was about breaking a fucking dehumanising blockade. Conflating the two is the oldest hyperbolical trick in the book.

. If Hamas were instead operating in South-East Asia, it would be them terrorising innocent Indonesian and foreign, including Australians.

Ohh right, so you have the authority to claim that even though the conditions that prompted the formation of Hamas (i.e. Palestinian situation) are COMPLETELY different to anyplace else around the world? I'm sorry but speculative bullshit will get you precisely nowhere.

Absolutely pathetic.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

You know well that he was not trying to say that it is perfectly acceptable for a terrorist to kill people, no one here thinks that. Some people are just saying that israel is more civilised and sane than a bunch of batshit terrorists hence the international community should bloody well be able to count on israel to act more responsibly than the terrorists. Don't fuck around, trying to say that people here condone terrorism, it is a disgusting example of cheap internet point scoring.

when the pro-israel camp starts calling you a terrorist, you know that they are becoming desperate. nobody is listening to israel anymore.

 

[0bs3n3]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

They had some knives, according to a picture provided by the IDF.

I urge you to find me an example of a boat which doesn't have a knife on board. Or the various DANGEROUS TOOLS that were found in that photo (which, to me, look like common tools to find within a flotilla).

:rofl:

I urge you to find me a soldier who doesn't carry a gun! OH SHIT PWNED BY LOGIC111

You are pathetic

 

[bazrah]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

They had some knives, according to a picture provided by the IDF.

I urge you to find me an example of a boat which doesn't have a knife on board. Or the various DANGEROUS TOOLS that were found in that photo (which, to me, look like common tools to find within a flotilla). Furthermore, the reports by people on board the flotilla suggest that this was false. Furthermore, can you find me an IDF commando who was injured by a knife? No? But they knew they were coming since they were warned multiple times! Well, I mean, that doesn't make any sense! Why would they have these knives on board and not use them!?



If you'd care to read the experiences of those onboard the flotilla, I'm sure you'll find abundant evidence to the contrary. The Israeli's attacked first, with questionable legal right, with undue levels of force



You just lost the game.



Oh ok. Well, The Sydney Morning Herald doesn't commit war crimes.

:rofl:

Ummm don't know if you've ever been camping or into a store that sells knives, but a large number of those aren't knives you'd expect to find in a kitchen. The fact still remains obviously the peace activists lied. They stated they didn't have any weapons on board and that they'd been searched. This photo proves that was a lie, and no you don't generally find switchblades on a boat.

 

[ibbi00]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

I urge you to find me a soldier who doesn't carry a gun! OH SHIT PWNED BY LOGIC111

You are pathetic

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard... How does it relate to the argument put forward?
The argument was stating that the activists had an intention as well as the capability to invoke violence backed up by the picture of 'weapons'. Such so called 'weapons' are normally found on any ship.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

and they weren't used

 

[Richard Gilmore]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Ummm don't know if you've ever been camping or into a store that sells knives, but a large number of those aren't knives you'd expect to find in a kitchen. The fact still remains obviously the peace activists lied. They stated they didn't have any weapons on board and that they'd been searched. This photo proves that was a lie, and no you don't generally find switchblades on a boat.

i probably didn't given enough evidence to the "according to the IDF" part

 

[ibbi00]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Ummm don't know if you've ever been camping or into a store that sells knives, but a large number of those aren't knives you'd expect to find in a kitchen. The fact still remains obviously the peace activists lied. They stated they didn't have any weapons on board and that they'd been searched. This photo proves that was a lie, and no you don't generally find switchblades on a boat.

What makes you think the switchblade wasn't planted by IDF? Isn't too far fetched given their history. And camping isn't exactly comparable to sailing.

 

[bazrah]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

i probably didn't given enough evidence to the "according to the IDF" part

Well, you can say that about anything you dope. Oh, according to the peace activists they didn't have any guns, but they could have just thrown them overboard. According to the peace activists, they weren't carrying rocket launchers, but you just don't know I have seen any real substantial evidence that proves they weren't! Who am I to believe those rascal Muslims! Pictures and substantial evidence mean nothing I'll just believe whatever I want.

 

[Chocolate_Face]

Isreal Rejects UN Probe

Israel dismissed on Thursday a UN decision to set up a probe of the deadly raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla, saying the Human Rights Council that adopted the resolution had no moral authority whatsoever.
"The authority of this council, which once again is working stubbornly against Israel, has reached rock bottom," said foreign ministry spokesman Ygal Palmor.
He pointed out that some of the resolution's signatories, like "Djibouti, Pakistan, Cuba or Saudi Arabia, are in a bad position to present themselves as defenders of human rights which they violate massively", he said.
On Wednesday, the UN Human Rights Council adopted a resolution setting up an independent international probe into Israel's interception in international waters of the six ships laden with aid and activists seeking to break the Gaza blockade.
The resolution condemned the "outrageous attack".
Meanwhile, a key Turkish organiser of the ill-fated Gaza aid flotilla charged on Thursday that more than a dozen injured activists were still unaccounted for following the bloody Israeli assault on the convoy.
Bulent Yildirim, head of the Islamist charity IHH, said the toll from Monday's raid may be higher than the nine dead announced by Israel, after he was deported home with hundreds of activists.
"We were given the bodies of nine martyrs, but we have a longer list. There are missing people," he told reporters.
"Our doctors handed over 38 injured, on our return they (the Israelis) said there were only 21 injured."
Eight Turks and a US national of Turkish origin were the nationalities of the dead determined after post-mortem examinations at a forensic institute in Istanbul, Anatolia News Agency said.
All the activists were shot dead, the agency said.
Forensic experts found bullet marks on all the bodies and determined that one was shot at close range.
Yildirim, who heads the Islamist Foundation of Humanitarian Relief (IHH), accused Israeli forces of indiscriminate killing, highlighting the death of one journalist on the Mavi Marmara ship, named Cevdet.
"He was just taking pictures. He was shot at from no more than a metre and his brain exploded ... one of our friends was shot even after he had surrendered," Yildirim said.
"They killed whoever they laid hands on. They even threw some of our friends into the sea."
Yildirim said the activists attacked Israeli forces with iron bars "in self defence", adding that they also seized the soldiers' weapons but threw them in the sea rather than using them.
Israel has said the commandos opened fire after they came under attack.
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said officials were verifying that all the activists were accounted for.
A Belgian passenger from the Mavi Marmara backed up testimony that passengers on the lead ship were unarmed, saying the "world must know" what happened.
"We saw terrible things, things we would never have thought to experience in our lives," Kenza Isnani told reporters.
"The passengers had a non-violent, peaceful attitude. There were no weapons. There was no provocation or intention to get mixed up in violence, not at all."
"The world must know what happened on that boat. It is important for the dead, and for the thousands of Palestinians who are suffering."
An Irish aid boat is steaming towards Gaza where it hopes to deliver vital supplies at the weekend, but those on board will not resist arrest by Israeli forces, organisers said.
The MV Rachel Corrie - carrying 15 people including a Nobel Prize winner and a former top UN official - is some 720km from where six boats were boarded in a botched Israeli raid which left nine dead.
"It's going about 200 miles a day," said Kevin Squires of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign (IPSC)
"So it's expected to reach sometime on Saturday," he said.
The Turkish government has confirmed that eight Turks and a US national of Turkish origin were shot dead in an Israeli raid on Gaza-bound aid ships.
Turkey's ties with Israel suffered "irreparable" damage and "will never be the same" after the deadly raid on aid ships bound for Gaza, Turkish President Abdullah Gul said on Thursday.
"From now on, Turkish-Israeli ties will never be the same. This incident has left an irreparable and deep scar" on relations, he said in televised remarks.
Gul added that Monday's attack by Israeli forces, in which eight Turks and a US national of Turkish origin were killed, "is not an issue that can be forgotten... or be covered up".
"Israel has made the biggest mistake in its history. It will realise this better in the future. Turkey will never forgive this attack," he said.

Israel rejects UN probe on raid

1. The reject a UN backed probe.
2. Israel say they where fired on first. The whole world say israel used violence first. The muslims/arab activists say israel used unprovoked violence. The english/european non muslim activists say israel unprovokingly killed 10 peaceful activists..
3. Israel confiscates all photage and videos taken by activists on boat.
4. Israel releases its own videos to the world.

Hmm... who to believe?

 

[bazrah]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

What makes you think the switchblade wasn't planted by IDF? Isn't too far fetched given their history. And camping isn't exactly comparable to sailing.

Yeah but given the general history and behavior of large portions of the Muslim society there's no real reason to believe blades weren't just smuggled onto the boat. It's obvious they had smuggled on make-shift grenades why not blades?

 

[ibbi00]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

Well, you can say that about anything you dope. Oh, according to the peace activists they didn't have any guns, but they could have just thrown them overboard. According to the peace activists, they weren't carrying rocket launchers, but you just don't know I have seen any real substantial evidence that proves they weren't! Who am I to believe those rascal Muslims! Pictures and substantial evidence mean nothing I'll just believe whatever I want.

Your beliefs are irrelevant to this argument unless you can support them with concrete unbiased evidence.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship

well we know what they didn't do - anything outrageously similar to that would have been reported by the IDF in a vastly exaggerated form.

so basically, the facts are somewhere between how the IDF reported them and how the peace activists reported them. and given the history of lies, misinformation, bias and uncredible reported eminating from the IDF and the Israeli government(s) - i tend to err on the side of the peace activists.