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Immigrants and the Australian Identity (1 Viewer)

Do you consider yourself as an Australian???

  • Yes

    Votes: 54 83.1%
  • No

    Votes: 11 16.9%

  • Total voters
    65

HotShot

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katie_tully said:
Are you insane? Do you know anything about Australian history?
The original Diggers went to war because they wanted to show Britain and the world that Australia was strong. They wanted to show case their young men. We did feel obliged to go because of Britain, but they would have gone regardless.

Please indicate to me which specific bushrangers did 'nothing but hunt abos', because I'm interested.

Saying 'some people of a race/religion hate our country' is not negative. It's true, and people like you are the reason we can't speak out against it!

Dude reading your posts makes me sick because it's evident you're a moron with no clue of the cultural and historical heritage of this country.
i am not sure why u are attacking muslims- i never mentioned in this thread anything regarding muslims :confused:

most of the bushrangers did exactly that. dont take me literally, but they did abuse aboriginals - and if u say that was considerate ok in those times - well i think ur insane, cos they are humans just like us no different. Saying 'some people of a race/religion hate our country' is negative, there will always be people who hate someone else or something else. go to any country and people are there who hate other countries, the countries they live in etc. If you can hate something, then how can we compare? the world isnt a lovely place? where everyone loves each - get too reality.

I dont how strong Australia was - lol with less 20million ppl, and using primarily british resources....and u can show strength by other means rather going to fight war on behalf of another country. A gud example is in sport- sport shows strength.

but i am being negative - for some reason i am stuck in negative mood, i dont like it, cos australia is such a positive place to be in .
 

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loquasagacious said:
Aboriginal tribes (apologies to any anthropologiosts reading this who like to be more semantic with the terminology) did not form any larger aboriginal nation. There was no over-arching culture, customs or even language. In terms of the nation-state Australia was Terra Nullius, yes it was certainly inhabited by Aboriginies however it was not inhabited by either a nation or a state. In this framework the land was unclaimed and empty - ripe for the taking by any nation-state.
What a load of crap. It's as though the systems of ownership, management and identity that existed prior to the European settlement (or the invasion if you're that way inclined) aren't of any significance given that they didn't span the entire continent and that they were (and still are) alien to our western notions of ownership, management and national identity.

Edit: By making note of the fact that such systems didn't span the continent I was referring to the idea that one system didn't span the entire continent. I didn't mean to suggest that such systems as a collective of sorts didn't span the continent.
 
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HotShot

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Generator said:
What a load of crap. It's as though the systems of ownership, management and identity that existed prior to the European settlement (or the invasion if you're that way inclined) aren't of any significance given that they didn't span the entire continent and that they were (and still are) alien to our western notions of ownership, management and national identity.
yes, but the aborignies didnt implement these systems of ownership, they claim that they didnt own the land, and that they were one - or something, i am against the terra nullius, but.. the aborigines dont likepeople 'owning' land.
loquasagacious does make a very strong point, the general aussie/american public fails to realise the world outside. loquasagacious only mentioned a few things that were done by non-europeans, just look at the wonders of the world - taj mahal, great wall of china, pyramids.
 

ihavenothing

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I consider myself Australian above all because the title Danish-Dutch Jewish-Australian is quite inconvenient. I believe Australia is not so much as special for its people, as most people think that people are the only things that matter in the world but its natural resources and environment. On the other hand I am proud Australia is a place where my sexuality, lack of religion, political view and criticism of other religions, cultures, ideologies is possible without being persecuted.

It saddens me how people are expected to respect religion and the concept of "is there a God?" and we have entered one of the most conservative eras yet.
 

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HotShot said:
yes, but the aborignies didnt implement these systems of ownership, they claim that they didnt own the land, and that they were one - or something, i am against the terra nullius, but.. the aborigines dont likepeople 'owning' land.
thats ridiculous. i agree with Generator's statement. trying to implement western ideals of land ownership and management (e.g. white picket fences) without any recognition of the aboriginal people's strong bond with the land they belong to is absolute ignorance displayed by the british. so much for european greatness. good thing that there was the mabo decision.
 
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HotShot

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Mountain.Dew said:
thats ridiculous. i agree with Generator's statement. trying to implement western ideals of land ownership and management (e.g. white picket fences) without any recognition of the aboriginal people's strong bond with the land they belong to is absolute ignorance displayed by the british. so much for european greatness. good thing that there was the mabo decision.
i guess so, but the argument against that is the british couldnt understand that form of 'ownership'. ideally its poms fault (it almost always is - they fucked the entire world). but yeah its makes little difference now.
 

Mountain.Dew

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anyway, like most people here...i consider Australia as my home. I respect the flag, i do sing the national anthem, i do respect australian values, i do speak english, i do have a general understanding of australian history, i do enjoy sport. i dare not say i do eat aussie food, cos the distinction of what is 'aussie food' is unclear. i guess im Australian.

depiste this, i still believe that my ethnic heritage still has a special place in defining my identity, side by side with my australian identity.
 
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banco55

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loquasagacious said:
My my this topis is certainly on fire - so many things to respond to, apologies this post may become rather fragmented, or if events have passed me in its posting. Though I promnise to end on a light note.

Original Australians: The use of this to describe aboriginals (itself a term flawed by its generic nature) is clearly erronous and anti-multicultural.

For a start Australia did not exist prior to the establishment of a british colony. And indeed for some time after this point. 'Australia' is in many ways an abstract concept - it is the embodiement of an abstract, the nation-state. Prior to colonisation (and for a period following) there was no nation-state, ther was no Australia.

Aboriginal tribes (apologies to any anthropologiosts reading this who like to be more semantic with the terminology) did not form any larger aboriginal nation. There was no over-arching culture, customs or even language. In terms of the nation-state Australia was Terra Nullius, yes it was certainly inhabited by Aboriginies however it was not inhabited by either a nation or a state. In this framework the land was unclaimed and empty - ripe for the taking by any nation-state.

In sum the term makes as much sence as declaring the irish (as celts) the original french because they occupied the geographical area we know as France prior to being pushed out by competing ethnic groups. The same applies to virtually every country you can name; the welsh are perhaps more 'originally english' than the anglo-celts we know as the english, etc etc.

Moving on the term Original Australian serves only to seperate rather than include people as Australians. It basically holds Aboriginals above anyone who has arrived since. Thus this term is as wrong as any racism directed toward more recent migrants by the descendents of the british settlers.

It is as morally wrong as me declaring that I am better than Katie because I am a 5th generation Australian and she is a 2nd. In many ways it is a racist term and in its usage serves to create divides not bridges.

I am not opposed to the acknowledgement of a previous aboriginal inhabitance, much like I am not opposed to Katie professing an Intalian heritage or minka a serb/croat one. Living in a functional multi-cultural society requires you to integrate however it does not require you to abandon your heritage.

Bushrangers hunt 'abos': Why? Why would a bushranger hunt an aboriginal? They were criminals interested in making a profit, what profit can be made by killing an aboriginal? Bushrangers robbed people, white people - because white people had money. In fact as an interesting aside many aboriginals were bushrangers in the sense that they were members of gangs and functioning in the capacity of helping bushrangers navigate 'the bush' to both avoid police and flee from police.

Diggers: They went to war to prove Australia, they went to war to cement Australia's relationship with Britain. Similarily to our current relationship with the US we fight in their wars in the service of our own national interest. This is why we fought in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Malaysia, IraqI, IragII, etc.



Now for some blind nationalism from the other side of the debate...

The muslim world was the keeper of western knowledge during Europes dark ages. The great libraries and universities of the muslim world were the primary seat of learning the world over. They made important breakthroughs and discoveries, especially in mathematics and science. Scholars from the west travelled to the muslim world to study. As Europe emerged from the dark ages and this knowledge returned to Europe it directly enabled the enlightenment. The enlightenment began as a rediscovery of roman and italian thought - this had been harboured by muslims.

The Darwins, Newtons, Galileos, Surgeons, Philosphers, etc all owe their achievements to the storing and expanding on of greek and roman thinking by muslims.

Our numbers for fucks sake are Hindu-Arabic numerals. They invented a numerical system including 0 and negative numbers, they made important breakthroughs in algebra. I advise you to get a clue before ranting about our unparalleled cultural supremecy - europeans were not always great.

I daresay that you do not speak arabic, or persian, and probably not any languages other than english. Do you think shakespeare has a prominent place on the muslim reading list? Just because in your sheltered existence you have not come across great literature from anyone non-european does not mean it does not exist.

Are you too say that there are no great arab (afterall islam is a religion not a race so the term muslim is misleading here), chinese, indian, japanese, persian, swedish or even russian authors/playrights/poets/philosophers.

Your knowledge is constrained by three things: what has been translated into english, what you choose to read (I hazard a guess - not very much) and what you are made to read.

Our educational system does not make you read the Qur'an, The Art of War, Beyond Good and Evil or the Republic this is however not a basis for declaring the middle-east, Germany or Greece a cultural wasteland.

In sum In the coming years I hope you get smarter - though I fear you may not.



Have I mentioned I'm part Irish? ;)
Yes the Arabs kindly kept the flame of Greek/Roman philosophy alive. But theirs was basically a passive role. They didn't use the Classical heritage to innovate to the same extent as the Italians for example did. Meanwhile you'll notice most of the accomplishments you cite happened long, long ago. Since than Islamic civilization has stagnated. I never said there weren't great non-english language poets etc.. What I'm saying is in the last 500 years the UK has produced a more signifigant output than the whole of the Muslim world put together. This is despite the UK's relatively small population. I don't think it's even arguable that the UK has contributed far more scientifically in the last 500 years than the whole of the muslim world combined. For that matter the Jews have contributed far more scientifically in the last 500 years than the whole of the muslim world combined.
 
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loquasagacious

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Generator said:
What a load of crap. It's as though the systems of ownership, management and identity that existed prior to the European settlement (or the invasion if you're that way inclined) aren't of any significance given that they didn't span the entire continent and that they were (and still are) alien to our western notions of ownership, management and national identity.

Edit: By making note of the fact that such systems didn't span the continent I was referring to the idea that one system didn't span the entire continent. I didn't mean to suggest that such systems as a collective of sorts didn't span the continent.
I'm not suggesting that there was no aboriginal ownership, identity, etc prior to settlement.

I am saying that there was little in the way of a cohesive culture, the aboriginal people being divided into many very varied tribes. There was nothing that europeans recognised as a nation or a state at the time and hence the terra nullius.

Given the world-wide ascendency of the european concept of the nation-state it is no wonder that today many (including myself) do not believe australia to have been occupied by aboriginals in a territorial manner.

They were here, however there was no nation-state and thus it was perfectly legitimate for any nation-state of the time to occupy this territory. Yes its an imposition of our morals/ethics/customs on theirs but thats what happens.

Infact as a realist I would endorse the occupation of the territory had there been a nation-state pre-existing. However that would constitute an invasion (nothing else does) and terra nullius would not hold true - might makes right would.

Bronco said:
Yes the Arabs kindly kept the flame of Greek/Roman philosophy alive. But theirs was basically a passive role. They didn't use the Classical heritage to innovate to the same extent as the Italians for example did. Meanwhile you'll notice most of the accomplishments you cite happened long, long ago. Since than Islamic civilization has stagnated. I never said there weren't great non-english language poets etc.. What I'm saying is in the last 500 years the UK has produced a more signifigant output than the whole of the Muslim world put together. This is despite the UK's relatively small population. I don't think it's even arguable that the UK has contributed far more scientifically in the last 500 years than the whole of the muslim world combined. For that matter the Jews have contributed far more scientifically in the last 500 years than the whole of the muslim world combined.
I would like to see a quantifiable basis for your statements.

Certainly islamic civilisation stagnated this was because of a movement within islam that essentially shut off further religious evolution. Islam it was decided had come far enough. The Qur'an and the actions of the prophet became the guides for life and interpretation was curtailed.

This was a triumph of a determinist philosophy over one of free will, it caused a great stagnation of islam and a slowing of developement at almost exactly the same time that Europe was emerging from the darkages.

As far as the jewish aside this is due to a differing cause again - that is to gain respect in the (jew-hating) christian societies of Europe jews were driven to achieve at the highest levels. Almost a widespread inferiority complex. This was accentuated by jews being forbidden to work in many trades and by the wealth they were able to accrue whilst acting as financiers.
 

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in answer to the question, yes.

even though the following doesnt account to being "more" australian, I'll say them anyway

I was born here.
I speak english fluently and eloquently.
I embrace the majority of Australian/Western values.
In saying this, I never forget my ancestorial roots and do not intend to abandon them entirely. (I've noticed many westernised asians are ashamed to speak their own language, even to their parents).
 

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loquasagacious said:
I'm not suggesting that there was no aboriginal ownership, identity, etc prior to settlement.

I am saying that there was little in the way of a cohesive culture, the aboriginal people being divided into many very varied tribes. There was nothing that europeans recognised as a nation or a state at the time and hence the terra nullius.

Given the world-wide ascendency of the european concept of the nation-state it is no wonder that today many (including myself) do not believe australia to have been occupied by aboriginals in a territorial manner.

They were here, however there was no nation-state and thus it was perfectly legitimate for any nation-state of the time to occupy this territory. Yes its an imposition of our morals/ethics/customs on theirs but thats what happens.

Infact as a realist I would endorse the occupation of the territory had there been a nation-state pre-existing. However that would constitute an invasion (nothing else does) and terra nullius would not hold true - might makes right would.
That may be what happens, but I don't agree with your interpretation. Oh well.
 

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katie_tully said:
Exactly! Your family is the perfect example of immigrants who have assimilated and adhere to Australian values. Perhaps it is because of your appreciation of the opportunities living in Australia has provided you with, opportunities you may not have had if you had been brought up in Pakistan.
I guess you also realise that adhering to Australian values does not mean giving up all ties to your heritage. I come from a family of immigrants too, and back in then they had no choice but to adhere to Australian values. When you think of alternatives, is living in Australia really that bad?
Pakistan is modern in some ways but I'd prefer here because of the larger diversity. Yes, I do keep my cultural/heritage values. For example, my mum still cooks Indian/Pakistani food for dinner. I still have nutri-grain/cocopops/milo/weet-bix/eggs and toast for breakfast. I still wear clothes that are reflective of my culture ie. shalwar kameez, the "lehnga" at weddings etc. etc.. When I go to uni, or out in the city, or shopping, then I wear western clothing. So there is quite a mixture. I speak hindi/urdu to my grandfather, my mother, my aunty, mostly english with my dad and uncle and with all my older relatives I speak hindi/urdu however all my aunts and uncles I speak english with because most of them came here at a young age (ie 30-40 years ago) so we understand each other better (somehow).
 

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Kulazzi said:
Pakistan is modern in some ways but I'd prefer here because of the larger diversity. Yes, I do keep my cultural/heritage values. For example, my mum still cooks Indian/Pakistani food for dinner. I still have nutri-grain/cocopops/milo/weet-bix/eggs and toast for breakfast. I still wear clothes that are reflective of my culture ie. shalwar kameez, the "lehnga" at weddings etc. etc.. When I go to uni, or out in the city, or shopping, then I wear western clothing. So there is quite a mixture. I speak hindi/urdu to my grandfather, my mother, my aunty, mostly english with my dad and uncle and with all my older relatives I speak hindi/urdu however all my aunts and uncles I speak english with because most of them came here at a young age (ie 30-40 years ago) so we understand each other better (somehow).
ur lucky, i can barely speak my mother tongue, i can understand quite well though. yeah weet-bix is awesome, but the rest really arent that gud (healthwise). i dig into curries, and european food, salads, pastas pizzas, pies, burgers - basically i eat everything - i feel though what u eat hasnt got to do whether ur aussie or not, food is food nothing more nothing less.
yeah sure there is indian food, leb food etc but those are descriptions not really distguishing why? because it is made in this country in front u not exclusive - it may taste better but they do there best.
 

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loquasagacious said:
I'm not suggesting that there was no aboriginal ownership, identity, etc prior to settlement.

I am saying that there was little in the way of a cohesive culture, the aboriginal people being divided into many very varied tribes. There was nothing that europeans recognised as a nation or a state at the time and hence the terra nullius.

Given the world-wide ascendency of the european concept of the nation-state it is no wonder that today many (including myself) do not believe australia to have been occupied by aboriginals in a territorial manner.

They were here, however there was no nation-state and thus it was perfectly legitimate for any nation-state of the time to occupy this territory. Yes its an imposition of our morals/ethics/customs on theirs but thats what happens.

Infact as a realist I would endorse the occupation of the territory had there been a nation-state pre-existing. However that would constitute an invasion (nothing else does) and terra nullius would not hold true - might makes right would.



I would like to see a quantifiable basis for your statements.

Certainly islamic civilisation stagnated this was because of a movement within islam that essentially shut off further religious evolution. Islam it was decided had come far enough. The Qur'an and the actions of the prophet became the guides for life and interpretation was curtailed.

This was a triumph of a determinist philosophy over one of free will, it caused a great stagnation of islam and a slowing of developement at almost exactly the same time that Europe was emerging from the darkages.

As far as the jewish aside this is due to a differing cause again - that is to gain respect in the (jew-hating) christian societies of Europe jews were driven to achieve at the highest levels. Almost a widespread inferiority complex. This was accentuated by jews being forbidden to work in many trades and by the wealth they were able to accrue whilst acting as financiers.
It's pretty easy to quantify, think of the great mathematical and scientific discoveries over the last 500 years. Than think of how many were made by British scientists. Than have a look at how many scientific/mathematical discoveries Muslims produced over the last 500 years. As far as philosophy goes the Brits have Francis Bacon, Berkeley, Burke, Hume, Locke, Mill, Smith and Bertrand Russell. In literature they produced the greatest writer of all time in shakespeare. Not to mention milton, wordsworth, Austen, dickens etc. I agree Islamic civiilization has been stagnant for literally centuries and there's little prospect of a renewal.
 

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Qadeer Khan
El-Hajj Malik el-Shabazz, or Malcolm X
Muhammed Ali
Imran Khan
Shahrukh-Khan
Alija Izetbegovic
all i could muster from the net.
 
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Historically speaking one proposed reason for Islam stagnating is the Mongol invasion, where some 800,000 people were killed just in the conquest of Baghdad. I mean it's not necessarily the religion that dictates how far they can advance; if the Koran said "Thou shalt develop science to a certain point, at which point you'll hand over said science to Christians then let them control your land in the 20th century" it'd be a different matter, right?

Also, banco, it's unfair for you to compare 'literature' because chances are, no matter how much brilliant literature has been composed in Arabic over the years, you've probably never heard of it anyway. Similarly someone in, say, Yemen, might not have heard of all those English authors.

On topic: My maternal grandparents were immigrants, and my father's family is about 5th generation Australian, but even if both my parents were immigrants, I don't think I'd be able to call myself anything but Australian; I mean, I'm of English and German extraction, but I'm no more German myself than I am Kazakhstani.
 
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HotShot said:
Qadeer Khan
El-Hajj Malik el-Shabazz, or Malcolm X
Muhammed Ali
Imran Khan
Shahrukh-Khan
Alija Izetbegovic
all i could muster from the net.
I think you just proved my point.
 

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Captain Gh3y said:
Also, banco, it's unfair for you to compare 'literature' because chances are, no matter how much brilliant literature has been composed in Arabic over the years, you've probably never heard of it anyway. Similarly someone in, say, Yemen, might not have heard of all those English authors.
Not true. Nearly all the major writers in the the major languages have been translated. Incidentally Japan is the country where Shakespeare is most performed. For that matter Eastern philosophy has influenced heaps of western authors. But the source of nearly all that philosophy was non-muslim cultures ie Hindu, Chinese, Japanese. It's not the case that there is some great treasure trove of Muslim philosophy/scientific discoveries that has been produced over the last 500 years that is only known of in Muslim countries.
 
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ur_inner_child said:
in answer to the question, yes.

even though the following doesnt account to being "more" australian, I'll say them anyway

I was born here.
I speak english fluently and eloquently.
I embrace the majority of Australian/Western values.
In saying this, I never forget my ancestorial roots and do not intend to abandon them entirely. (I've noticed many westernised asians are ashamed to speak their own language, even to their parents).
I actually intend to speak other languages at home when I have kids because I'd like them to grow up with that fluency because it will be a real asset to them to be able to speak Serbian, Croatian and English fluently as well as decent French, Italian and German. It will be an advantage to them.

I know that we often speak Croatian or Serbian at home - I do have two elderly grandparents living with us who havn't picked up English as well as we have because they havn't been out in the community as much or have worked and been to school. Besides, it is fun to lapse into Croatian when Jahovah's come to the door and pretend we can't understand English so they go away.

But like you have said, I won't completly dismiss my Serb/Croat roots because then I am spitting in the face of my heritage. I am not embarassed of where I come from, and quite frankly, when your name is Miroslava, people figure out you are a 'wog' pretty quickly ;)
 

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