Is University overrated these days? (1 Viewer)

[Ben1220]

I personally dislike the Australian Education system, mostly due to the underlying vocational sentiment.

I support a classical education model, in parts similar to mid-tier and above American universities, where students are forced to do a 4 year program, usually covering broad areas of study and developing strong criticial thinking & research skills.

The main drawback of cause with America is the cost- but we all know their welfare system sucks. If Australia though had a similar model (that is, you enrolled in a 4 yr BA or BSc program before choosing a grad school in your field) but the fee structure was still HECS I think this would be awsome.

In my opinion, a rigorous and broad education should ALWAYS encompass the following subjects:

- 1 or 2 Semesters of mathematics (Basic calculus, Algebra, logic, Business/Financial maths)...lots of options here depending on students background/interest
- History
- Basic sciences (at least a semester of physics OR chem OR Biology OR Environmental Science/Earth)...again depends on background/interest
- Philosophy
- Minimum 1 or 2 semesters of foreign language
- Statistics & Research Design
- Minimum 1 semester of IT or C. Science [important these days]
- Economics OR Politics OR Geography OR a intro business course (accy or finance)
- Perhaps an English Literature subject/Classics/Communications/Psychology OR "general Ed" class

Of course the program (being 4 yrs) would be flexible enough to then allow a major specialisation in one or even 2 areas. A 'double degree' would not be needed.

Obviously major areas in the BA like history, politics, philosophy, geography, economics, business admin, accounting/finance, management, psychology, languages etc would be offered.

In the BSc, mathematics, all sciences, engineering, computing sciences etc

All students would have a specialisation + a basic grasp of broad eduational subjects.

This trains a critical thinker whilst giving people in their young years a real feel for what they might like to do.

You then have the option of grad school in your area (business, science/engineering masters, law or medicine etc) or can go out and work.

Much better

and yet America has one of the lowest literacy rates as a 1st world country..

I know what you're trying to argue, and you are WRONG WRONG WRONG

Yes School in America can be a joke if you're going to a poor school in the bronx. Its just one manifestation of the broader inequality in America. The SAT is also very easy, high school students don't even know basic calculus unless they take advanced placement classes. Look at MITs or Harvards calculus 1 class (the first maths course students take if they didn't take advanced placement classes in highschool)

The point is, at the college level, the American system is much better. Even though there are large numbers of very poor people who fall through the cracks due to bad schools in America, this has nothing to do with their universities and the education offered to those who don't fall through the cracks. By the time you get to the stage of undergraduates, there is certainly no illiteracy. Academia and school systems are completely separate and should not be lumped together.

That is like saying that senior bank executives being paid many millions of dollars each year on wall street make less then their Australian counterparts (who actually only make around AU$300k a year) just because there is a higher number of Americans below the poverty line. That just doesn't follow at all.

 

[SFinspired]

It is because foreign students (aka fobs) make their tertiary/college level higher than what it was.

 

[Makro]

@Cookie: While that's all good in theory, you're forgetting that people need to get on with their lives. Not everyone can have the luxury of tertiary education (despite intelligence). I have a friend who has to help his family and has to get a job straight away even though he got offered courses (not at UWS). I personally would do it, but would find it hard, that would mean a 4 year course + grad? I've no knowledge of grad courses but that's 8 years, no? Or at the minimum, 6 years.

I seriously think we need to accelerate learning in the lower levels. Humans are smart enough for this, including Australians. How did we in the space of 2 months develop the ability to take on multiple subjects and do the homework for it all with relative ease compared to doing shit all in year 6. I'm talking about the transition from year 6 to year 7, how easy was it? Wasn't too bad, IMO. How much more work was there? A decent amount.

We're capable of so much more given that teachers don't fuck up and leave kids behind. You have a responsibility as a teacher to help the child learn, if they need extra help, talking to parents can help, getting the school to set up an after school homework centre (my middle school did this <3). People aren't dumb, some kids need more attention and time to understand the importance of education.

Regardless of helping kids, another good thing is PROPER advanced classes. Not A classes with the same work. Grab the smartest 10-20 kids and teach them more. We shouldn't be disadvantaged for going to a shit school.

On a separate note I think having tertiary education in line with adulthood is stupid. We should have the opportunity to do more than just trades if we're poor. It's keeping poor people poor. Like the aforementioned friend, he was smart enough but couldn't leave his family.

I really do think we can get kids to finish the HSC at 16, perhaps younger. It doesn't take 7 years to teach the skills we gain in primary school. Everyone knows it was a bludge, why not make us work harder? There are still heaps of breaks. Increasing the workload will not burn out our kids. This means that you can go to Uni at 17, and finish uni at 19/20 instead of 21/22.

 

[KevinWu]

That's because USyd's BA(Psych) has a 4th year built in, but you still have to make it into honours and do the honours year to be accreditted. So its the same thing as UWS. And honours isn't an extra course, its an extra year on top of a course. Dumbshit

LOL omar got owned. Fukin' funny shit.

 

[KevinWu]

nah
Macquarie no good.
There's a big drop in degree quality as soon as you leave the Go8 postcode, and I say that in the most arrogant and least helpful way possible.

Dude where do you get your information? HAHA, your fukin' funny. How would you know Macquarie acturial studies is worst than UNSW, Usyd?

 

[Omar-Comin]

Dude where do you get your information? HAHA, your fukin' funny. How would you know Macquarie actuarial studies is worst than UNSW, Usyd?

I'm a second year at Fiance/Actuarial student at the top department in Australia. For readers unfamiliar with the inside-baseball, Macquarie is ranked somewhere in the 6-10 range.
I was always impressed by the students in the Macquarie department, but as a group they're just not in the same league as my classmates here. The drop-off in input quality when you leave the G08 is pretty steep, and it must be even steeper when you look past 2109. I mean this in the least arrogant way possible.
The consensus is that most of the value-added comes from interacting with your classmates, so the peer effects are dominant. In terms of teaching, I actually found the Macquarie faculty put in more effort, but the courses here are at a higher level.

I can't speak to the quality of the advising elsewhere, but the dominance of the top schools self-perpetuates pretty easily. Because 2/3 of the faculty at the top 3 went to a top 2, so any potential adviser I end up with has personal relationships with people at the places I'll be applying for a job. It's a comforting thought.

Macquarie also only has an endowment of $563m (compared to say UNSW, which has $1.0082 Bn), it's self evident what this says about it's finance department.

 

[taintedfeather]

^ Acturial Studies is best at Macquarie (I might be wrong, but wasn't Macquarie the first uni that taught the subject?), and besides that, their Arts program is quite decent, and is much better than UNSW arts. If I had to rank NSW (metro area) unis based on Arts it would be USYD -> Macquarie -> UNSW -> UWS -> UTS (unless you like specialized Arts)

At the end of the day, no one will give a shit if they came from UWS or USYD at the undergrad level, as they (assuming they are any good) will have a PhD or at minimum masters.

If that was the case, why did I have to work my ass off for a Combined Arts/Law Degree, when I could've just gotten an 83 ATAR (with their bonus point scheme) and done Arts/Law at U.W.S?

It's going to depend on the area you're applying for. If you're applying for a position in the Campbelltown area, then sure UWS will cut it, but no way in hell can you compete with a USYD/UNSW/UTS or Macquarie student in the CBD district.

 

[rx34]

I'm a second year at Fiance/Actuarial student at the top department in Australia. For readers unfamiliar with the inside-baseball, Macquarie is ranked somewhere in the 6-10 range.

I'm guessing Omar is at UNSW? Anyway, I always thought UNSW and Melb Uni's actuarial studies was the best, not Macquaire's.

 

[Cookie182]

I know what you're trying to argue, and you are WRONG WRONG WRONG

Yes School in America can be a joke if you're going to a poor school in the bronx. Its just one manifestation of the broader inequality in America. The SAT is also very easy, high school students don't even know basic calculus unless they take advanced placement classes. Look at MITs or Harvards calculus 1 class (the first maths course students take if they didn't take advanced placement classes in highschool)

The point is, at the college level, the American system is much better. Even though there are large numbers of very poor people who fall through the cracks due to bad schools in America, this has nothing to do with their universities and the education offered to those who don't fall through the cracks. By the time you get to the stage of undergraduates, there is certainly no illiteracy. Academia and school systems are completely separate and should not be lumped together.

That is like saying that senior bank executives being paid many millions of dollars each year on wall street make less then their Australian counterparts (who actually only make around AU$300k a year) just because there is a higher number of Americans below the poverty line. That just doesn't follow at all.

Good points.

The difference between American high school and overseas curriculums is staggering.

+1

 

[Dombrovski]

Sultan is such an idiot.

Graney is trolling him lol

+1

+2

Yeah, I would say uni is a bit overrated these days...I always wanted to go to uni, but I found that my school cohort was really force fed the "going to uni" option.

In my eyes, some of the people who are at uni shouldn't be, mostly due to their academic apathy... There isn't enough underlying emphasis on excellence at uni, the "p's get degrees" attitude really hits home, even with those who did exceptionally well at high school... And this weakens the view of higher education as a whole.

(on the same note, if someone is really trying and they are just passing, but they are passionate about what they are doing, power to them!)

 

[dvse]

University education in Australia is dumbed down beyond any hope. The school system takes much of the blame - even the best selective schools in the end teach to the worthless HSC curriculum or its equivalents.

Another problem is the ever growing focus on "professional" degrees - it is extremely difficult to learn anything worthwhile in that accounting, actuarial or software engineering course.


In case you are wondering, this is what real "elite" education looks like:

Burden of Proof | The Harvard Crimson

 

[Ben1220]

University education in Australia is dumbed down beyond any hope. The school system takes much of the blame - even the best selective schools in the end teach to the worthless HSC curriculum or its equivalents.

Another problem is the ever growing focus on "professional" degrees - it is extremely difficult to learn anything worthwhile in that accounting, actuarial or software engineering course.


In case you are wondering, this is what real "elite" education looks like:

Burden of Proof | The Harvard Crimson

that was a great read! Damn that looks hard. I'll try to remember this whenever I think I'm in a tough course...

 

[Absolutezero]

In case you are wondering, this is what real "elite" education looks like:

Burden of Proof | The Harvard Crimson

That's insanity. Interesting, but insane.

 

[Sokolov]

Keep in mind I'm talking about this in an undergraduate context. Back in the days University was a great achievement. Only a very few handful of people could gain entry and get a degree. If you said you were a University student or something you would be admired by people. But nowadays it seems everyone is going to University. When you ask someone what you do, 80% of the time they will say they go to Uni. Its like going to university isn't an achievement anymore, its just something everyone does now. University students are so common these days its like University is the new high school. A lot of students who aren't suited to going to University go anyways simply because its the 'what everyone else does'.

Well that's just my opinion anyway. What do you guys think?

hahaha the op is jelous he only got into cheap degree mill with equivlent atar of 30

 

[Otacon2009]

Can't post too much as I'm on the move, but uni can be the best years of your life. You may be flat broke for awhile, but you'll do it in style. Without uni, I would probably be at a dead end job for life. O-Week alone is a substitute for schoolies if you live it up. More on this and more later in the thread

 

[JasmineNuytre]

Getting into uni is easy, however graduating and getting a job is admireable IMO

 

[Dr_Fresh]

stupid people/people who fail at life/people at non-Go8 uni --> "uni is overrated"

successful people/people at prestigious uni --> "uni is not overrated"

go figure

 

[Dosu]

stupid people/people who fail at life/people at non-Go8 uni --> "uni is overrated"

successful people/people at prestigious uni --> "uni is not overrated"

go figure

i thought it has more to do with what course you are studying

b arts @ unsw vs mbbs @ uws

 

[Sokolov]

OP GOES TO A DEGREE MILL

stupid people/people who fail at life/people at non-Go8 uni --> "uni is overrated"

successful people/people at prestigious uni --> "uni is not overrated"

go figure

a truth has been speak

 

[rx34]

OP GOES TO A DEGREE MILL

Which university do you think produces these degree mills?

And to the question, university is overrated for some. Generally it is the people who didn't go to university or dropped out who would say that. Sour grapes I would say.