Islam Discussion (2 Viewers)

[SashatheMan]

doesnt impact my future replied to you, becuase your post keep showing the absurd way that muslims tie up existance of god with little stories and believe that muhammad wasnt a schizophrenic but a prophet

 

[zahid]

doesnt impact my future replied to you, becuase your post keep showing the absurd way that muslims tie up existance of god with little stories and believe that muhammad wasnt a schizophrenic but a prophet

Ok fine (we will play it your way) then I guess my absurdist intellectual standpoint defines my morally absurd universe (I am therefore the master of my domain, or so to speak)...and your problem???

 

[MoonlightSonata]

If there is no God, where do you go after you die? If there is no hereafter (because their is no God) then our lives are being lived in vain.

Incorrect. There is a thing called pleasure. You can get a lot of it by living. That is not vain.

In my opinion, this is the main problem with religion, it destroys human potential by taking energy, time and pleasure from this life and putting the emphasis on the next (non-existent) life. It can be a good thing for people who have terrible living conditions and who's life yields no pleasure. In focussing their hope on a better world they decrease their suffering and so perhaps it is permissible. But other than that, it really is a waste.

I belive that morals were derived from religion.

You've got it backwards. Standards of morality existed long before religion; religion merely codified them and used spiritual beliefs to enforce them.

Religion provides moral guidance to humans.

Maybe, but it is not necessarily good moral guidance. If you haven't noticed, particular religions have passed some very nasty and unfounded judgments of gay people.

Agnosticism, in my belief is just an easy way out.

Irrelevant. If it is the best and most logical position, it does not matter how easy it is to adopt.

There are no boundaries to what you can do and not do.

Incorrect. Reason and compassion are better moral guides to morality than the dogma of religion. Of course there are limits.

Because everyone is free to do anything they please (agnosticism)

Incorrect. Agnosticism is not constituted by that belief.

then society becomes corrupted.

1. Define corrupted.

2. Seeking the truth is not corrupt. Applying reason for the wellbeing of humankind is not corrupt. Using logic to understand the world is not corrupt.

Over 1500 years ago in Saudi Arabia, men used to bury their daughters alive. Clearly people didn't have morals.

1. You assume morality actually exists.

2. Those particular people did not apply reason to the wellbeing of humankind, of course there would be bad consequences. But this says nothing about the need for religion.

Finally Islam came along and taught that you shouldn't kill any human being under any circumstance.

You don't need a book to tell you not to kill. All you have to know is that killing brings terrible pain (possibly to the victim but also to others), and that it prevents the fulfilment and extended pleasure of a person. In other words, the consequences are bad. Hence you don't do it.

There is absolutely no need for some deity to tell you that.

Thus, before any religion, humans did not have moral guidance.

Your reasoning is deductively invalid. This is your argument:

1. A long time ago, people in Saudi Arabia used to bury their daughters alive.
2. This was wrong.
C. Therefore, before religion was introduced, all humans had no moral guidance.

The conclusion obviously does not flow from the two premises. Firstly, morality -- in a variety of forms -- would obviously have existed all around the world. You cannot just use that one example to show "acceptable" standards of morality did not exist everywhere.

Secondly, the source of "moral guidance" for the most part was not really religious. It was the codification of existing and developing applications of reason to ethics. The spiritual aspect was a combination of humankind's natural fear of the unknown combined with a method of making people conform to those ethical beliefs that seemed appropriate -- terrible consequences would ensue otherwise, such as being denied access to some sort of utopian after world and being sent to Hell.

Humans didn't even know that it was wrong to kill, gamble, fornicate etc.

1. You make very superficial statements there - you assume that there can be absolute right or wrongs. It is arguable that (1) nothing is right or wrong at all; or (2) nothing is necessarily right or wrong; it depends on the context. For instance, killing one man to save a million may not be wrong.

2. Humans did have standards. They knew that the person would no longer be around, and that it caused physical pain. Therefore they did not considering death to be a good thing. This is a basic application of reason, but not applied properly because societies were unstable and believe it or not, most people need the threat of consequences to keep them in line. (Hence why particular religions are successful in imposing some seemingly silly rules.)

3. It is not necessarily wrong to gamble, and I assure you it is not wrong to fornicate. Fornication brings pleasure, and pleasure is a good thing.

Religion provided much needed moral cleansing of the soul

1. Taking that at face value, you assume people have souls, which is highly dubious.

2. You assume the spiritual aspect was the element that "cleansed" human behaviour. In fact it was the developing code of laws (which religion played a part in forming) and consequences which allowed reason to operate properly in relatively stable societies. It really has nothing to do with the beliefs or religion or God. It is all just about power and order.

and thus helped people including present day athiests to know about basic morals that everyone takes for granted.

Modern day morals are determined by reason, they have nothing to do with religious beliefs.

Religion played an important part in allowing reason to operate, by creating systems of law and order. But the beliefs of the religions were developments of reason; any spiritual aspect to ethics is just residue that, as civilised rational humans in a fully developed and lawful society, we no longer need to keep us in line.

 

[soha]

this is the thread that doesnt end
yes it goes on and on my friend
some people started posting in it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because
this is the thread that doenst end
yes it goes on and on my friend
some peopel started posting in it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because
this is the thread that doesnt end
yes it goes on and on my friend
some people started posting in it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because

 

[SashatheMan]

this is the thread that doesnt end
yes it goes on and on my friend
some people started posting in it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because
this is the thread that doenst end
yes it goes on and on my friend
some peopel started posting in it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because
this is the thread that doesnt end
yes it goes on and on my friend
some people started posting in it not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting in it forever just because

How ironic your persistence of posting irrelevant crap in this thread, only keeps pushing people to post further relies.

 

[soha]

How ironic your persistence of posting irrelevant crap in this thread, only keeps pushing people to post further relies.

how ironic you have like over 150 posts in this thread
that is all
HAHAHAHAHA...ME?...Me?...me?>...post irrelavent crap..??
sif..
ur the one who post day and night fucking bullshit..

 

[sly fly]

But it primarily affects the person who's doing it. For example, my right to wear a skirt overrides the right of others who might feel uncomfortable with the idea to force me not to.

Is it impossible for your mother to get a job?

In some cases maybe. But in our case I think it's affected my mum more than it has affected my dad because it's not just his money that he wastes but it's money that's supposed to be spent paying the bills, paying for our education expenses etc etc. And since he doesn't really think about that and it's my mum who does all the worrying, she's affected by it more than he is. She could get a job but she doesn't speak English very well and she has ongoing medical problems so it's very hard for her....plus, she has 5 kids to look after.

 

[SashatheMan]

how ironic you have like over 150 posts in this thread
that is all
HAHAHAHAHA...ME?...Me?...me?>...post irrelavent crap..??
sif..
ur the one who post day and night fucking bullshit..

if yuo compare my posts that argue sometihng or have a point , to yuor useless posts that always include repeatative crap ie "that is all" or "silence" , then in no way can you say its ironic or that its bullshit.

 

[veterandoggy]

In some cases maybe. But in our case I think it's affected my mum more than it has affected my dad because it's not just his money that he wastes but it's money that's supposed to be spent paying the bills, paying for our education expenses etc etc. And since he doesn't really think about that and it's my mum who does all the worrying, she's affected by it more than he is. She could get a job but she doesn't speak English very well and she has ongoing medical problems so it's very hard for her....plus, she has 5 kids to look after.

yes, i think the gambler isnt as affected mentally as the rest, since they are having a good time, unlike the family.

 

[Generator]

yes, i think the gambler isnt as affected mentally as the rest, since they are having a good time, unlike the family.

Are you trying to be a comedian, veterandoggy?

 

[tfiuc]

With respect to talk about the creation of god- we can only say what god told us in all the holy scriptures, and that is that he was always there, he is without begining and without end. Maybe there is more to it, but he didn't tell us. Our only response to it is:
1) Where is the universe if not in gods kingdom
2) Where did the energy/matter of which everything is made of, come from- if you refuse to believe god was always there, than you cannot claim that it was there from the begining without contradicting yourself.

 

[veterandoggy]

they use the big bang theory, but then we should ask "where did the super atom come from?"

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It's not quite that simple veterandoggy..

 

[veterandoggy]

what do you mean by it isnt that simple?

 

[veterandoggy]

Because we aren't scientifically advanced enough to answer this question, we must assume that there has to be a god?

You can bag the Big Bang Theory all you want, but you have to come to terms with this fact. It has scientific evidence supporting it, while "God as the Creator" Theory has no scientific evidence supporting it.

i dont bag the big bang theory, i support it. i only said that if everything came from that, then where did that come from? our answer is from god.

 

[veterandoggy]

And I say it came from a banana. Make sense, much?

i dunno, since the banana came from the big bang, but god was there before the big bang.

 

[Riqtay]

This is in response to Moonlight Sonata's argument. I believe that this life is only very short compared to the hereafter. Imagine if you were paralyzed tommorow and you couldn't do anything. You would then live your 70 years in misery and suffering.

The VAIN pursuit of pleasure is very dangerous indeed, as old forms of pleasure become too boring and so people pursue other so called forms of pleasure. Fornication is one such vain pursuit. By fornicating, you will satisfy your urges instantly rather than chanelling them through marriage. After a while you will seek other so called forms of pleasure.

People would then lead to try new things, for example having sexual relations with the same sex. soon, that would become unentertaining and then people may start having sexual relations with children. Some individuals may even consider having sexual relations with animals etc. . .the cycle continues. Instead of uncontollably pursuing pleasure, I believe one should gain pleasure under certain guideline ie by having sexual relations after marriage.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

This is in response to Moonlight Sonata's argument. I believe that this life is only very short compared to the hereafter. Imagine if you were paralyzed tommorow and you couldn't do anything. You would then live your 70 years in misery and suffering.

There would be things you could do, even as a paraplegic, to have a little bit of excitement in your life. Perhaps invent games in your head?

The VAIN pursuit of pleasure is very dangerous indeed, as old forms of pleasure become too boring and so people pursue other so called forms of pleasure. Fornication is one such vain pursuit. By fornicating, you will satisfy your urges instantly rather than chanelling them through marriage. After a while you will seek other so called forms of pleasure.

People would then lead to try new things, for example having sexual relations with the same sex. soon, that would become unentertaining and then people may start having sexual relations with children. Some individuals may even consider having sexual relations with animals etc. . .the cycle continues. Instead of uncontollably pursuing pleasure, I believe one should gain pleasure under certain guideline ie by having sexual relations after marriage.

......

 

[tfiuc]

Big bang goes with my beliefs, not against it so im not going to argue it. What I am arguing is that you cant say god had to be created, and that this super atom could have always been there. And now what, we are pulling the "we dont have the technology" argument?! When we did that it wasn't sufficient, so don't try that on us.

And no, im not restructuring my response- because you understood it and you just said that to be a jack-ass.

 

[SashatheMan]

The VAIN pursuit of pleasure is very dangerous indeed, as old forms of pleasure become too boring and so people pursue other so called forms of pleasure. Fornication is one such vain pursuit. By fornicating, you will satisfy your urges instantly rather than chanelling them through marriage. After a while you will seek other so called forms of pleasure.

People would then lead to try new things, for example having sexual relations with the same sex. soon, that would become unentertaining and then people may start having sexual relations with children. Some individuals may even consider having sexual relations with animals etc. . .the cycle continues. Instead of uncontollably pursuing pleasure, I believe one should gain pleasure under certain guideline ie by having sexual relations after marriage.

i dont know maybe where you live men cant control themselves and will fuck donkeys and children when looking for new pleasures but if you notice in australia if people are in persuit of new pleasures , they can bring stuff that doesnt involve beastiality or child sex. maybe muhammad was bored and was in persuit of pleasure so 9 year olds would be a new fad. and becuase swinger clubs didnt exist back them , he just married 11 wives.