Islam Discussion (2 Viewers)

[The Nick]

I hear Muslims condemning terrorism all the time. I also hear some condoning it.

Try not to paint everyone with the same brush.

 

[danieljarvis]

Who do you want to answer them? A normal Muslim who can speak on behalf of all other Muslims through some kind of telepathic mind-meld? A cleric or sheik who may have a learned opinion and be somewhat informative, but still not know what millions of other Muslims think? Garbledina?

I would actually like to see Garbledina answer this. I don't think Strong Bad's favourite movie is Muslim though.

somebody has to answer to it. i mean in all society's somebody answer's the questions on behalf of others. I think the point he was making was that nobody has answered it, (not specifically BoS members), but anybody of his knowledge, and he gave examples of what happens when confronted with the questions. Somebody has to say something, as stated even to acknowledge the problems as mistakes and try work with it, cos admittance can help to begin reconciling.

 

[0Jade0]

(5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

*cough* China?

 

[veterandoggy]

sasha, we already know that muslims have problems. and we arent exactly supportive of terrorist attacks, but we wont rally against palestinians, because that is what they have, along with rocks. so you have never seen pics of israeli soldiers shooting down kids for throwing rocks at them? surprising, since youre the video supplier here

and btw, there ARE christian suicide bombers, dont be fooled. physician could support this, cos he knows.

i will say we have problems with muslims, not islam, but you knew that anyway.

 

[veterandoggy]

(5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

*cough* China?

huh? what do you mean by that?

 

[googooloo]

THE RIOTING IN France by primarily Muslim youths and the hotel bombings in Jordan are the latest events to prompt sincere questions that law-abiding Muslims need to answer for Islam's sake, as well as for the sake of worried non-Muslims.

Here are five of them:


(1) Why are you so quiet?

Since the first Israelis were targeted for death by Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up in the name of your religion and Palestinian nationalism, I have been praying to see Muslim demonstrations against these atrocities. Last week's protests in Jordan against the bombings, while welcome, were a rarity. What I have seen more often is mainstream Muslim spokesmen implicitly defending this terror on the grounds that Israel occupies Palestinian lands. We see torture and murder in the name of Allah, but we see no anti-torture and anti-murder demonstrations in the name of Allah.

There are a billion Muslims in the world. How is it possible that essentially none have demonstrated against evils perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam? This is true even of the millions of Muslims living in free Western societies. What are non-Muslims of goodwill supposed to conclude? When the Israeli government did not stop a Lebanese massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in Lebanon in 1982, great crowds of Israeli Jews gathered to protest their country's moral failing. Why has there been no comparable public demonstration by Palestinians or other Muslims to morally condemn Palestinian or other Muslim-committed terror?

(2) Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian?

If Israeli occupation is the reason for Muslim terror in Israel, why do no Christian Palestinians engage in terror? They are just as nationalistic and just as occupied as Muslim Palestinians.

(3) Why is only one of the 47 Muslim-majority countries a free country?

According to Freedom House, a Washington-based group that promotes democracy, of the world's 47 Muslim countries, only Mali is free. Sixty percent are not free, and 38% are partly free. Muslim-majority states account for a majority of the world's "not free" states. And of the 10 "worst of the worst," seven are Islamic states. Why is this?

(4) Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam?

Young girls in Indonesia were recently beheaded by Muslim murderers. Last year, Muslims — in the name of Islam — murdered hundreds of schoolchildren in Russia. While reciting Muslim prayers, Islamic terrorists take foreigners working to make Iraq free and slaughter them. Muslim daughters are murdered by their own families in the thousands in "honor killings." And the Muslim government in Iran has publicly called for the extermination of Israel.

(5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

No church or synagogue is allowed in Saudi Arabia. The Taliban destroyed some of the greatest sculptures of the ancient world because they were Buddhist. Sudan's Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians.

Instead of confronting these problems, too many of you deny them. Muslims call my radio show to tell me that even speaking of Muslim or Islamic terrorists is wrong. After all, they argue, Timothy McVeigh is never labeled a "Christian terrorist." As if McVeigh committed his terror as a churchgoing Christian and in the name of Christ, and as if there were Christian-based terror groups around the world.

As a member of the media for nearly 25 years, I have a long record of reaching out to Muslims. Muslim leaders have invited me to speak at major mosques. In addition, I have studied Arabic and Islam, have visited most Arab and many other Muslim countries and conducted interfaith dialogues with Muslims in the United Arab Emirates as well as in the U.S. Politically, I have supported creation of a Palestinian state and supported (mistakenly, I now believe) the Oslo accords.

Hundreds of millions of non-Muslims want honest answers to these questions, even if the only answer you offer is, "Yes, we have real problems in Islam." Such an acknowledgment is infinitely better — for you and for the world — than dismissing us as anti-Muslim.

We await your response.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...3,0,1904398.story?coll=la-home-sunday-opinion

Most of what you ask here and discuss here is the same thing.

A lot of places are corrupt. A lot of meddling by outside forces (meaning mainly western societies) has allowed corruption in nearly, basically all prodominant muslim countires to be so. They were fine before, and now, well you can't call any of them caliphates that's for sure.

Where the beheading of christian indo. girls really done by muslims? I thought this wasn't proven just assumed. The tactics used and the cleaness of hte deed done seems to suggest otherwise, like corrupt government officlas. You see Indonesia gets money from other coutries (mainly america) for stamping out such terrorism. So if they lose terrorism, they lose a lot of billions of $.

Palastinians are mainly muslims yes. Maybe the christian ones (didn't know there really where any!) are most likely used to living under a different religion prodom. country, so if they may not feel as strongly as the muslim ones. Or maybe it's the fact that the whole israeli/palstinian thign began cause of one crazy jewish israeli walking into a mosque and firing with his machine gun at the women, children and men praying. Killing a large amount of people, in the 20's I htink it was. Yeh that sounds right. It was a surprise, unexpected. SO this is more likely the reason why the christians are blowing themselves up.

The palastinians also didn't see any other way the could retaliate such a htign, do to corruption again, so the used (just like in afghanistan and vietnam) sort of guerilla tactics if you may, this time it's called 'suicide bombing.'

The persuction of other religions should not happen. They should be able to live under the msulim regime in place. The muslim regime, well the way the rule as designed by god, is defferent to the wests idea of democracy. This is why places touched by democrayc (usually due to the UK or USA) ends up being screwed up, because they don't know how to deal with it, or what it's all about, becuase it is not the guidance of allah so to speak you know? Do u see what I'm trying to say? and don't play dumb either. I kno u people are smarter than u seem, surely that must be so!

 

[googooloo]

huh? what do you mean by that?

Meaning the CHina's government and thier persuction of people. LIke how there si a whole par to f china that want's to break away and be a muslim country...this is probably because CHina doesn't support htem enough. Otherwise they wouldn't try...right?

 

[veterandoggy]

china's not ruled by muslims but, or am i mistaken?

 

[SashatheMan]

The persuction of other religions should not happen. They should be able to live under the msulim regime in place. The muslim regime,

but it does happen. thats the problem

well the way the rule as designed by god, is defferent to the wests idea of democracy. This is why places touched by democrayc (usually due to the UK or USA) ends up being screwed up, because they don't know how to deal with it, or what it's all about, becuase it is not the guidance of allah so to speak you know? Do u see what I'm trying to say? and don't play dumb either. I kno u people are smarter than u seem, surely that must be so!

it seems that this guidance of allah is not brining anything good. i dont think democracy it self screws up middle eastern countries, i think its the muslim people who dont wanna accept that its a better way of life instead of people who think that the guidance of allah is better and then go and destroy their own country and then blame democracy on the devostations.

 

[googooloo]

Democracy is not necessarily better. Look at america. They boast democracy, squeeki clean democracy. I do not call it democracy when Bush cheats to get elected.

 

[erawamai]

Democracy is not necessarily better. Look at america. They boast democracy, squeeki clean democracy. I do not call it democracy when Bush cheats to get elected.

You havn't pointed out why democracy is not neccessarily better. Just a conspiracy theory that points to a failure of people to adhere to the rules of democracy. This in no way suggests that democracy is 'not neccessarily better'.

 

[SashatheMan]

Democracy is not necessarily better. Look at america. They boast democracy, squeeki clean democracy. I do not call it democracy when Bush cheats to get elected.

look at the average state of living or life expectancy. i am sure in western countries its much higher then in middle eastern coutnries.

you dotn know if bush cheated on the election, tis just a conspiracy theory. and that not even relevant

 

[Comrade nathan]

THE RIOTING IN France by primarily Muslim youths and the hotel bombings in Jordan are the latest events to prompt sincere questions that law-abiding Muslims need to answer for Islam's sake, as well as for the sake of worried non-Muslims.

All are lower class and unemployed. Maybe the Western nations would like to answer to why it is that the people that were once oppressed in their own countries are now be oppressed in Western Countries by a white majority.

(1) Why are you so quiet?

Since the first Israelis were targeted for death by Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up in the name of your religion and Palestinian nationalism, I have been praying to see Muslim demonstrations against these atrocities. Last week's protests in Jordan against the bombings, while welcome, were a rarity. What I have seen more often is mainstream Muslim spokesmen implicitly defending this terror on the grounds that Israel occupies Palestinian lands. We see torture and murder in the name of Allah, but we see no anti-torture and anti-murder demonstrations in the name of Allah.

There are a billion Muslims in the world. How is it possible that essentially none have demonstrated against evils perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam? This is true even of the millions of Muslims living in free Western societies. What are non-Muslims of goodwill supposed to conclude? When the Israeli government did not stop a Lebanese massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in Lebanon in 1982, great crowds of Israeli Jews gathered to protest their country's moral failing. Why has there been no comparable public demonstration by Palestinians or other Muslims to morally condemn Palestinian or other Muslim-committed terror?

(2) Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian?

If Israeli occupation is the reason for Muslim terror in Israel, why do no Christian Palestinians engage in terror? They are just as nationalistic and just as occupied as Muslim Palestinians.

Palastine is not a religious question it is a National question. It is much a National question as it was for the Black nation in aparthiad South Africa, Vietnamese in South Vietnam, the Irish nation in Northern Ireland and so on.

Also the PFLP which is considered a terrorist group by the US was created by a Christian man and it's recruits are groups from softcore Muslims, softcore Christians and Marxists. All members however are secularists, and their program is Marxist.

(3) Why is only one of the 47 Muslim-majority countries a free country?

Most of which are puppets of the US and gain support from the US. So why is it that US puppet states are the most oppressive countries? Islam is a great tool of the US Imperialists.

The Islamic order has only to answer and be judged by the proletariat of that nation, and they will. They do not have to answer to white bourgeoisie of the imperialist nations.

 

[veterandoggy]

most? i wouldnt be surprised if it was all.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Meaning the CHina's government and thier persuction of people. LIke how there si a whole par to f china that want's to break away and be a muslim country...this is probably because CHina doesn't support htem enough. Otherwise they wouldn't try...right?

What the fuck .... ?

Anyway, I think she was referring to China being the only superpower that treats religious groups so badly because of its claim to atheist ideologies.

However, in practice, most PRC Chinese are religious; as long as the state doesn't see religion/cult X as a threat, it leaves it alone. Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism and Confucianism and rural Paganism are all accepted by the government as they've had a long tradition in China. Things like Falung Gong and that crazy AUM group (understandably) scare the shit out of the government.

 

[malkin86]

Democracy is not necessarily better. Look at america. They boast democracy, squeeki clean democracy. I do not call it democracy when Bush cheats to get elected.

I believe that we have a better democracy than America.
I have linked to this before, but it needs linking to. I knew most of it, but I didn't know that they hold their votes on a *Tuesday*, when most people would be working... So voters would be only those that could get a half-day off to vote.

 

[iranian rocket]

THE RIOTING IN France by primarily Muslim youths and the hotel bombings in Jordan are the latest events to prompt sincere questions that law-abiding Muslims need to answer for Islam's sake, as well as for the sake of worried non-Muslims.

Here are five of them:


(1) Why are you so quiet?

Since the first Israelis were targeted for death by Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up in the name of your religion and Palestinian nationalism, I have been praying to see Muslim demonstrations against these atrocities. Last week's protests in Jordan against the bombings, while welcome, were a rarity. What I have seen more often is mainstream Muslim spokesmen implicitly defending this terror on the grounds that Israel occupies Palestinian lands. We see torture and murder in the name of Allah, but we see no anti-torture and anti-murder demonstrations in the name of Allah.

There are a billion Muslims in the world. How is it possible that essentially none have demonstrated against evils perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam? This is true even of the millions of Muslims living in free Western societies. What are non-Muslims of goodwill supposed to conclude? When the Israeli government did not stop a Lebanese massacre of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatilla refugee camps in Lebanon in 1982, great crowds of Israeli Jews gathered to protest their country's moral failing. Why has there been no comparable public demonstration by Palestinians or other Muslims to morally condemn Palestinian or other Muslim-committed terror?

(2) Why are none of the Palestinian terrorists Christian?

If Israeli occupation is the reason for Muslim terror in Israel, why do no Christian Palestinians engage in terror? They are just as nationalistic and just as occupied as Muslim Palestinians.

(3) Why is only one of the 47 Muslim-majority countries a free country?

According to Freedom House, a Washington-based group that promotes democracy, of the world's 47 Muslim countries, only Mali is free. Sixty percent are not free, and 38% are partly free. Muslim-majority states account for a majority of the world's "not free" states. And of the 10 "worst of the worst," seven are Islamic states. Why is this?

(4) Why are so many atrocities committed and threatened by Muslims in the name of Islam?

Young girls in Indonesia were recently beheaded by Muslim murderers. Last year, Muslims — in the name of Islam — murdered hundreds of schoolchildren in Russia. While reciting Muslim prayers, Islamic terrorists take foreigners working to make Iraq free and slaughter them. Muslim daughters are murdered by their own families in the thousands in "honor killings." And the Muslim government in Iran has publicly called for the extermination of Israel.

(5) Why do countries governed by religious Muslims persecute other religions?

No church or synagogue is allowed in Saudi Arabia. The Taliban destroyed some of the greatest sculptures of the ancient world because they were Buddhist. Sudan's Islamic regime has murdered great numbers of Christians.

Instead of confronting these problems, too many of you deny them. Muslims call my radio show to tell me that even speaking of Muslim or Islamic terrorists is wrong. After all, they argue, Timothy McVeigh is never labeled a "Christian terrorist." As if McVeigh committed his terror as a churchgoing Christian and in the name of Christ, and as if there were Christian-based terror groups around the world.

As a member of the media for nearly 25 years, I have a long record of reaching out to Muslims. Muslim leaders have invited me to speak at major mosques. In addition, I have studied Arabic and Islam, have visited most Arab and many other Muslim countries and conducted interfaith dialogues with Muslims in the United Arab Emirates as well as in the U.S. Politically, I have supported creation of a Palestinian state and supported (mistakenly, I now believe) the Oslo accords.

Hundreds of millions of non-Muslims want honest answers to these questions, even if the only answer you offer is, "Yes, we have real problems in Islam." Such an acknowledgment is infinitely better — for you and for the world — than dismissing us as anti-Muslim.

We await your response.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...3,0,1904398.story?coll=la-home-sunday-opinion

Question (1)
How can you compare the Palestinian cause to september 11? In Palestine what they do is out of desperation to reclaim the land that is set out to them in a UN resolution. You seem to forget that many more palestinian civilians are killed by the Israeli Defence Forces in the quest to kill a few militants than are killed by Palestinian "terrorist" groups. There are over 1million palestinian refugees in neighbouring countries who are never allowed to return home, however anyone who can prove they are jewish are granted instant citizenship.

While the palestinians have no army, no real police force and no real diplomatic strength with which to fight for their rights, how are they supposed to go about defending their civil liberties and fundamental human rights? While i dont condone suicide bombings or the bombing of civilians, their successes have been clearly documented: The israeli withdrawal from south lebanon, the israeli withdrawal from the gaza strip.

Futher to this the only real civilians in Israel are those below the age of 18 and above the age of 40, as everyone else who is not in the military is enrolled in active military service for 1month a year.


In response to your statement that terrorism isnt condemned by the muslim world, i think that is complete and utter bs. If you watched the news you would know after sept 11 there were demonstrations accross the muslim world including a 5000strong crowd who lit candles in Iran in memory of the victims and there is always condemnation by all the heads of state of every islamic country.

Btw what was the turn out at the such memorial gatherings in sydney or melbourne?

Moreover, why should the muslims of the world be required to make themselves heard everytime a wrong is commited in the name of islam? Are all muslims somehow responsible the irrational and crazed actions of individuals? Those who commit these foul acts or unjustified unlegitimised violence are not real muslims and are instead delluded. Muslims have better things to do than to gather every time someone does something wrong. get over yourself. Are christians required to start protesting all over the world when ever a white supremist kills a black person?

Question (2)

Now this question is just stupid. Firstly palestinian christians have far less grievances than palestinian muslims and arent as discriminated against and most of them live in jerusalem on the israeli side in comfort. Secondly the vast majority of palestinians are muslim well over 95% so it is illogical to assume that it is strange for christian palestinans not to take part in suicide attacks.

Question (3)

This question is also fairly naive. There are so many undemocratic islamic countries because the western world enjoys it that way. Do you think it would be in the best interests of the Western world if the population of islamic countries especially the oil-rich countries had a say in how their countries were run and what foreign policy they would like to adopt? If the US and Britain are so "unhappy" with the state of "oppression" in islamic countries why then do they have soldiers in every oil rich persian gulf dictatorship ie Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, Qatar etc...? Is it not because they have their approval?

If the history books serve me correctly youd be surprised to know in 1951 the US and Britain overthrew the democratically elected prime minister of iran and reinstated a dictator. The same is true of non muslim countries as seen in Nicargua, Chilie etc...

Question (4) and (5)

Why do western countries persecute muslims? France banning of religious icons (aimed at the head scarf), US finger printing every muslim who arrives in the country and the request that they register themselves, UK and Australian "Anti-terror" laws? And if you want evidence of euro-cristian atrocities against muslims in the name of christianity you need look no further than Yugoslavia, where acts of genocide were commited. It looks like you have a selective understanding of history and world events and only seem to recognise the wrongs of one side

 

[somechick]

What the fuck .... ?

Anyway, I think she was referring to China being the only superpower that treats religious groups so badly because of its claim to atheist ideologies.

However, in practice, most PRC Chinese are religious; as long as the state doesn't see religion/cult X as a threat, it leaves it alone. Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism and Confucianism and rural Paganism are all accepted by the government as they've had a long tradition in China. Things like Falung Gong and that crazy AUM group (understandably) scare the shit out of the government.

I believe they were referring to the persecution of muslims in china

wikipedia:
"During the Cultural Revolution, many Muslims, along with other Chinese, were persecuted. Muslim imams were paraded around with paint splashed on their persons, and 1,600 Muslims were massacred by the People's Liberation Army (the Shadian Incident) in 1975. Even though religious freedom was declared in 1978, there are still many claims of persecution of Muslims by the communist government"

 

[withoutaface]

Democracy is not necessarily better. Look at america. They boast democracy, squeeki clean democracy. I do not call it democracy when Bush cheats to get elected.

I suggest you stop watching Michael Moore and obtain a movie by the name of Farenhype 9/11.

Bush didn't cheat to get elected. The system was flawed perhaps, in that Gore got a higher number of votes, but Bush didn't cheat.

 

[Newbie]

sashatheman you are clearly an enemy to the class struggle
begone!