Lame Holden "transformers"-style adds... (2 Viewers)

[Jiga]

But there not efficient, thats the point. Look at the typical Ford vs Holden debate, the FPV V8 gets 290kw with 5.4L while the HSV gets 307kw with 6L (both have same torque)... so that small of a difference given 6 mils difference in displacement, because one is a better technology! Mind you its expected out of the same capacity I believe, that the FPV will have 320kw in the new Falcon. Im also doubtful of the weight factor, its not THAT big of a difference, pushrod is a more compact unit but it has more parts to it. Lastly, a great example of the supperiority of technology, the Lexus LF-A soon to come out with a 5L V10 (so yeah more pistons but still same displacement) has a massive 373kw and does rev to 9000RPM. I dont think you could get that out of a pushrod... partly why all the premium manufacturers steer clear (And mind you that LF-A isnt that powerful compared to what some of Europe have to offer in smaller dissplacements). Lastly the GM pushrods at least have a history of unreliability, they didnt mind drinking oil etc!

 

[j_davo24]

Lastly the GM pushrods at least have a history of unreliability, they didnt mind drinking oil etc!

We've had plenty of Commodores over the years, and a couple of Fords and I can tell you that the Commodores were far more reliable than the Falcons. Not just in terms of the engine but structural integrity as well. We had a EF panel van that the drivers side door fell off one of the hinges. A EB fairmont that was absolutely gutless. Now we have a BA ute that isn't all that good itself, I'll admit its an improvement over the other two though.

On the other hand we've also had a VN, VR, and 2 VT commodores and hadn't had any notable problems with any of them.

Also on your comment about the 180kw@6000rpm they have dropped the capacity of the engine to 3.6L as opposed to the previous 3.8 and still managed to increase output. The current falcon engine IIRC is 190kw@5250rpm from a 4L. So much for superior technology in the Falcon, although granted it's not pushrod like the V8's. And that engine was available in the VZ so it is part of the same generation as the current Falcon.

The Toyota engine is definitely better technology, but still doesnt make the Aurion anymore appealing

 

[Riet]

The weight difference is masive because the LS7 is all aluminium, while the Modular Ford is cast iron. I didn't mean efficient as in specific output, because that's quite meaningless. I was talking about fuel use. Anyways, comparing a high revving V10 to the Commodore engine when we are talking about V8s is meaningless. The BMW M5 also has 500hp from a 5L V10, neither it nor the LF-A will come anywhere near the Z06 corvette (505hp) because while the vette has usable across the entire rev range, peaky V10s don't.

 

[Jiga]

Also on your comment about the 180kw@6000rpm they have dropped the capacity of the engine to 3.6L as opposed to the previous 3.8 and still managed to increase output. The current falcon engine IIRC is 190kw@5250rpm from a 4L. So much for superior technology in the Falcon, although granted it's not pushrod like the V8's. And that engine was available in the VZ so it is part of the same generation as the current Falcon.

The Toyota engine is definitely better technology, but still doesnt make the Aurion anymore appealing

I wouldnt say its a great achievement getting more power out of a smaller engine... they are still behind the competition, although yes when you look at it the Falcon is prity bad less power then Aurion with 500Ml more... but it is OHC afterall not DOHC (prity sure). Anyway things are changing, Ford have recently announced they are scrapping the I6 and going for a Duratec V6 sold internationally.. which will be imported rather then built here.

The weight difference is masive because the LS7 is all aluminium, while the Modular Ford is cast iron. I didn't mean efficient as in specific output, because that's quite meaningless. I was talking about fuel use. Anyways, comparing a high revving V10 to the Commodore engine when we are talking about V8s is meaningless. The BMW M5 also has 500hp from a 5L V10, neither it nor the LF-A will come anywhere near the Z06 corvette (505hp) because while the vette has usable across the entire rev range, peaky V10s don't.

1. Well Im talking Pushrod v DOHC adv and disadv... so yeah the Ford iron block isnt the best but prity sure the better ones are all alloy so that isnt an adv inheriant with pushrod (less weigh that is)!
2. Well Lexus also have a 5L V8 producing 300kw, so same power as Commodore yet WAY less dissplacement.
3. Lol but the Z06 is 7Ls!!!! Further proving my point because albeit V10 it has 10kw more (although less torque). It also weighs less and revs to 9000RPM so it might not have the same power down low and is peaky, but that peak lasts forever!!! And not engine related but it has a direct shift tranmission which changes gears in 0.1seconds.... Im thinking the LF-A will rocket to 100 in very lows 4s in STYLE

 

[Riet]

Lexus don't make a 5L V8, and their 4.6L V8 isn't quite 300kW... I'm not arguing pushrod versus OHC because it depends too much on the examples you're looking at. I'm talking specifically about the Ford Vs Holden thing which is why the weight is so important. The fact it weighs less and can be mounted much lower, while making more or less the same power and torque means that dismissing it simply because it's old tech is stupid.

 

[Jiga]

Yes they do, IS-F; 5L v8, 300kw, 475Nm & 8 speed direct shift transmission. Its prity decent looking (and expensive):

Although it isnt out yet... very soon to be released.

As for pushrod argument, I thought it was clear I was talking in general... its old technology. To put it simply, the best pushrod engine in the world is far inferior to the best DOHC engine in the world. I think the only people still relying heavily on pushrod are GM and we know how great they are going these days.... not!!!

 

[Riet]

Umm... the LSx engines are easily some of the most well rounded mass production performance engines in the world. Obviously there are better examples of OHC engines but I defy you to find another that is just as cheap, torquey, powerful, lightweight and compact.

It's not out yet so it doesn't count.

Edit: And less weight/more compact is definitely an inherent advantage with pushrods, the valve train is much smaller.

 

[Jiga]

Yeah I said ages back... I think in terms of value for money you look at the R8 for example 0 - 100km/h in just under 5seconds for under $100k compared to something like this Lexus which will be over $100k Id imagine. But DOHC is superior when it comes to extracting the most power out of an engine (reliably) because making use of multiple valves per cylinder and VVT means better breathing, more power. Pushrod on the other hand relies on upping dissplacement.

 

[Riet]

Fact of the matter is while DOHC may be better at producing higher specific outputs, the GM pushrod engine is bloody good at what it does and I see no reason for them switching to an OHC design.

 

[Jiga]

Each unto their own... I think it depends at how you look at the engine, I try to look at it from a design point of view. I marvel at say the Lexus 5L V8 producing 300kw and revving really high... its an accomplishment. Its hard to marvel at a 7L V8 which is pushrod getting 380kw because ummm its 7L, it didnt get that power because of it being a well designed engine it got that purely from displacement... you could not doubt get a lawnmower up to that power if you give it enough litres!

As for no need to change, how do pushrods go in regards to emissions? I would think they aernt great due to their lack of breathing and relative inefficiency, in the near future this is going to be an issue as governments crack down on emissions. Thats one great thing about DOHC... even a massive V10 is still within current emmission standards in Europe (which will make their way out here).

 

[Riet]

Nah, they aren't too bad. With long gearing they're quite decent, better than most cars in that class (not so much with the Commie because it weighs like 300 kg more than a Vette). The impressive thing about the Z06 engine is that its light as hell and even though it displaces 7L, and is a pushrod, it can still rev safely to 8000 rpm. (redline is 7 because power starts to drop off after that anyway). It also cost less than $20000, which is a shitload less than say, the AMG 6.3L engine which makes more or less the same power and torque.

PS. The LS7R (racing variant use in Le Mans and such) was deemed motorsport engine of the year, not bad for prehistoric technology.
http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/2129402d.jpg