Lexus (1 Viewer)

[seremify007]

What do you think of Lexus?

To me, they have awesome looking cars (well I liked the SC430, Harrier, the old IS, and the new IS) but despite being overlaiden with new technology, I still can't help but think they are overpriced Toyotas filled with gimmicks and gizmos. Sure there's the kickass sound system, the really nice interiors (although the IS200 felt a bit 'overpriced' in terms of interior look for that price), etc... but they still seem to scream Toyota.

The car which I can't stand the most would be the ES because whenever I see it go by, it even LOOKS like the Camry which it was probably based on. Maybe newer Lexus cars (eg. the IS250) don't really resemble the Toyota cars they may be related to, but subconsciously, I look at it and go "I can't imagine spending that much on a Toyota".

Nonetheless though, Lexus is becoming a well known brand- it seems to have established a very good reptuation for itself in America (based on what I've seen in TV shows/movies).

Enough of my ranting. So what do you think?

(btw anyone heard about the 8-speed in the LS460? I know it's a bit old news... but it sounds pretty amazing!)

 

[wheredanton]

Lexus needs to establish a predigree between it's cars. Something which they are working on. IF you removed the badges from a BMW you could still tell that the CAR is a BMW. Remove the badges from some lexuses and you would never know they come from the same car company. However the new L finess design at Lexus is working on this.

Also it kinda undermines the L finess styling when Toyota borrows it for it's Camry. The Lexus is250/350 has very similar tail lights to the new camry. This can be seen below...

new lexus es350

new is 250

Ok...we get it. We can tell these cars are lexus's. Similar tail light treatment. And you know lexus is meant to be a luxury car maker.

Why oh Why do they then go and slap the same design on the bread and butter Camry. All they do this time use the same lights but angle them the otherway

Some think Lexus went off and Stole the Hoffmiester Kink from BMW

But I think VW and Mazda are bigger copy cats of BMW than lexus

 

[seremify007]

Yeh you can see the pedigree being developed- I agree with what you said about removing the badges... there's a certain character which even after Chris Bangle came in, still resonates from all the BMWs whether they be new/old, SUV/sedan, cheap/expensive, etc...

 

[petar13]

I agree, it's a Toyota, and there's no getting around that. However, it's RWD which is, as I see it, it's only redeeming factor. Never having driven a Lexus, I can only go by what I have read - the unresponsive steering and coffin-like quietude does not appeal to me in a car which tries to compete against German brands of sporting character... Whilst the older Lexuses (Lexi?) - the Toyota Celsiors- look like a fridge on wheels.
It's honestly not something that I would ever consider buying.

 

[7th Sign]

Lexus isnt a toyota is a totally different company set up by Toyota that is the high class version of Toyota...All car companies do it...Maybac benz etc etc...

 

[Minai]

Put simply, I'd rather fork out another $5 odd k and get a BMW...I know Lexus is supposed to be luxury, but it still seems like a poor man's BMW/Merc

 

[seremify007]

Lexus isnt a toyota is a totally different company set up by Toyota that is the high class version of Toyota...All car companies do it...Maybac benz etc etc...

I can see your argument 7th Sign, but the fact remains, a lot of the Lexus components in the past were simply Toyota parts, and if the appearance of older Lexus cars mirrored their mass market mainstream Toyota counterparts, it's not surprising that there is a subconscious connection made by the public that Lexus are just glamorous Toyotas. If it's any consolation, Saab and Jaguar are both luxury brands which under cost-cutting pressures have resorted to using components/platforms from cheaper cars.

Maybach and Benz have a different relationship- Benz was already a luxury brand, whereas Maybach was for Benz owners who wanted something a bit more special than the quite common S-class. A Maybach was also meant to be a complete package (if I recall correctly it included services/conceirge/etc.. kindof like the "what happened to.." Nokia Verita?).

Put simply, I'd rather fork out another $5 odd k and get a BMW...I know Lexus is supposed to be luxury, but it still seems like a poor man's BMW/Merc

LOL is a Lexus really much cheaper than a Beemer/Benz? But yeh I'm inclined to think I would probably pick other cars over a Lexus.

 

[7th Sign]

Maybac Benz is owned by merc...

also the smart car is 50% owned by merc and 50% owned by swotch watches lol...

 

[seremify007]

I guess the r'ship between maybach/benz is similar to lexus/toyota... but benz is a brand of quality (maybe not in recent times!) so i don't think people mind that the maybach shares components with the benz, but with a lexus...

 

[sikeveo]

I guess the r'ship between maybach/benz is similar to lexus/toyota... but benz is a brand of quality (maybe not in recent times!) so i don't think people mind that the maybach shares components with the benz, but with a lexus...

Bloody american plant!

 

[transcendent]

i personally liked the look of the IS200/300 than the IS250. they should've worked with the chrome taillights and expanded on that rather than radically change it. for me, i'd be able to tell a Lexus by that, but then Lexus stands out for me. the RX is a recognisable design, as well as the GS with it's double head/taillight design. the problem is that these cars WERE Toyotas, at least in Japan. now that it's Lexus globally they might get some pedigree, BMW and Mercedes have been around for way longer so you can't blame them.
I want a IS200/300 for a good all round car and the Celsior would make a great pimpmobile. i like Toyota, but i'm greatly disappointed that they don't have a hero car, a sports car, like the Supra. same goes for Lexus, there isn't a stand out sports car to aspire to like the M3 for the 3 series.

 

[wheredanton]

Put simply, I'd rather fork out another $5 odd k and get a BMW...I know Lexus is supposed to be luxury, but it still seems like a poor man's BMW/Merc

I'd seriously consider an IS over any Merc or BMW sold in Australia. Sure if money was no object I'd get a 325/330i with red terra leather, logic 7 stereo, xenon headlights, sport seats and blackline taillights. But that would cost $110k.

- EXPENSIVE AND SLOW - 50 or so thousand (without any options) for a 320i (with a 110kw 4 pot) with plastic wheel covers on 16inch Rims. Want Heated seats? $800 Want any other colour than white?1600. What leather seats? Well you have to buy the 320i executive which starts at 58 000 for the automatic minus on road costs and options.

A 30k Hyundai Sonata will beat it to 100 by about 4 seconds and a Toyota Corolla has similar performance.

While a BMW 330i is the best sports sedan out there thats alot of money.

- Good? Guaranteed resale value. Bullitproof image for the Jones's. People will still think your car is made in Germany even though it is not.

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Lets compare the base 320i with the base is250. These two cars are the bread and butter of the professional when their accountant tells them to go lease a car under the luxury car tax threshold.

Lexus - Leather power heated and cooled seats - standard
BMW - BMW sport seats $1250. Power seats $2750. $800 for heated front seats. Cooling not avaliable. Leather not avaliable on base 320i. Standard on 320i executive which starts at 58 000 for the automatic minus on roads and options.

Lexus - 150 or so kw of power from a v6
BWM - 110kw from a I4

Lexus - Comfort Access - Keyless pushbutton start - standard
BMW- $1250 option on all BMW's...even the 100k 330i

Lexus - 4years/100k
BMW - 2years/100k

Lexus - 13 Speaker 6 stacker CD - standard
BMW - CD stacker is optional - doesn't say how much

Lexus - Navigation - comes as an option back for the base model - $8325 - for that you get; Power sunroof, DVD Satellite Navigation with DVD player, bluetooth capability, reversing monitor camera, premium Mark Levinson 14 speaker audio unit
BMW - $6900 for navigation alone, $2400 for BMW logic 7 stereo, $2750 for electric sunroof, Bluetooth is standard on all 3 series but 'bluetooth for mobile phone Business' is $500
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While BMW's are really nice and I'd love to own one it seems like BMW is nasty and mean spirited when it comes to value. Think of what you can get for in terms of luxury and performance for 60k (probably what a 320i will cost after you add some options and drive away costs).

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All of the above is my opinion. I made all efforts to get the prices correct. I apologise if some are not totally accurate. I take no responsbility for the losses you you incur as a result of relying on theabove opinion.

 

[Jiga]

Common sense tells us that the Lexus provides way better value for money! From what some people say, its almost like there more worried about 'what people will think' about their car then actually getting something for your $$$

This being said, mechanically I think they are alittle dodgy. Dont know if they still do, but I remember reading that my old arse Vienta has the same engine put in a Lexus of the same year.... yet Im sure the price tag was substantially higher just to get a power seat!

 

[wheredanton]

Common sense tells us that the Lexus provides way better value for money! From what some people say, its almost like there more worried about 'what people will think' about their car then actually getting something for your $$$

Yep...

This being said, mechanically I think they are alittle dodgy. Dont know if they still do, but I remember reading that my old arse Vienta has the same engine put in a Lexus of the same year.... yet Im sure the price tag was substantially higher just to get a power seat!

JD power reliability surveys show lexus and toyota to be must more reliable than their german counterparts.

http://www.whatcar.com/news-special-report.aspx?NA=214562&EL=3121185#

Note the position of MB

 

[Jiga]

JD power reliability surveys show lexus and toyota to be must more reliable than their german counterparts.

My point was, why bother spending an extra $20k to get the same engine just with some cosmetic extras like leather, and power seats etc. Better off sticking in the case I outlined of the Vienta and optioning it up, you will save yourself $10k (Note those are estimates, I dont know how much the difference actaully was)

 

[wheredanton]

My point was, why bother spending an extra $20k to get the same engine just with some cosmetic extras like leather, and power seats etc. Better off sticking in the case I outlined of the Vienta and optioning it up, you will save yourself $10k (Note those are estimates, I dont know how much the difference actaully was)

If thats the case it makes a BMW look poor value.

The only car that shared the engine with the camry is the ES Lexus. I wouldnt recommend one of those.

 

[Pace_T]

lexus has class toyota doesnt

 

[seremify007]

Common sense tells us that the Lexus provides way better value for money! From what some people say, its almost like there more worried about 'what people will think' about their car then actually getting something for your $$$

Of course feature to feature between Lexus and their German rivals will show the Lexus is probably a lot better value, but when you consider that cars in the luxury segment tend to not really focus on value and comparing both luxury sedans (say the IS and the 3 series) to something like a Renault Megane (I can't believe I considered this car at one stage) and you'll see that the $30k car also has alot of the features (at one stage even had free satnav) of the older siblings. Point being, if you're looking for value for money, you wouldn't be buying a Lexus now would you?

When you take into account that a Lexus still has the stigma (not just to us, but also to others who see the car) of being an overpriced Toyota, it doesn't even have the 'showoff factor' (or badge) which the German rivals have to justify their premium prices. I don't mean to keep knocking at Lexus/Toyota, but the reality is, at least the other brands can justify their pricing with heritage- If Lexus were to try selling without having the 'slightly improved value for money' advantage, I wouldn't be surprised if Lexus sales plummeted.

While BMW's are really nice and I'd love to own one it seems like BMW is nasty and mean spirited when it comes to value. Think of what you can get for in terms of luxury and performance for 60k (probably what a 320i will cost after you add some options and drive away costs).

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All of the above is my opinion. I made all efforts to get the prices correct. I apologise if some are not totally accurate. I take no responsbility for the losses you you incur as a result of relying on theabove opinion.

You raise fair points, but then that's where BMW really gets a lot of it's money from. I think BMW probably won't adjust their pricing structure yet to compete with Lexus; after all, Lexus is only doing this at the moment to penetrate BMW's stranglehold on this market segment- only when, and if, this starts to work- will BMW respond.

Also in regards to your pricing- you were a bit unfair on BMW by picking the more expensive options on purpose or items which can't be compared directly.
(NB. These are prices taken from BMW's 3 series brochure for Feb06)...

For example, satnav comes with a 6.5" screen for $3600, whereas the Professional version is $6900. You can't simply compare navigation systems, or sound systems, because it's like comparing things which whilst offering similar features, the quality and user experience can vary dramatically. I've personally used the BMW satnav systems before (the 330Ci has it) and it's pretty good to use; however I can't compare it to Lexus since I haven't used that one before.

Then the premium sound system you mentioned costs $1,150 for the basic upgrade, and then if you want the Logic7 one it'll cost $2,400. Like I said before, you can't compare the two sound systems until you've heard them both and experienced it yourself (or at least let an expert do it). Everyone seems to speak highly about Mark Levinson, but I've never heard it- if the Logic7 is anything like the Harmon Kardon systems which are in MINI/BMW, then I'd say it's probably sufficient for even those who crave awesome audio.

The CD Stacker option will probably cost a bit under $1000 (from experience with buying CD stackers fitted by the Dealer for our Jaguar, Benzes and BMWs)- so in that sense, I can see Lexus thumping it value for money- but hey, my Honda Civic came with a 6cd stacker with WMA/MP3 support and ID3 tag/folder support and cost half the price of these luxury sedans! Even Mazda3 comes with a 6cd stacker IIRC.

Not too sure about push button starts- but even the $30k Renault Megane comes with that. I can't seem to find it as an option on the brochure (and I actually thought it was standard)- can anyone verify? I know we have it on the 645Ci; but that was a fully opted model at the time of purchase. I also thought this was standard on even the 1 series because it isn't even an option in the brochure but I distinctly remember seeing it in the advertisements/demo model.

BMW also offers pretty crappy warranties- have to agree with you on that. But they do offer warranty extensions at decent prices. Does Lexus offer roadside assist is my question?

 

[wheredanton]

For example, satnav comes with a 6.5" screen for $3600, whereas the Professional version is $6900.

The 6.5 inch screen is not satnav. Thats just idrive minus the satnav. To get satnav you need the 6900 option.

For example the base 5 series gets i drive but not sat nav...ie the 6.5 inch screen. BMW stanav only works on the larger widescreen professional screen.

You should note on the options list the 6.5 screen says 'colour monitor and radio navigation'. Whereas the 8.8 inch screen is described as 'professional navigation system'.

The CD Stacker option will probably cost a bit under $1000 (from experience with buying CD stackers fitted by the Dealer for our Jaguar, Benzes and BMWs)- so in that sense, I can see Lexus thumping it value for money- but hey, my Honda Civic came with a 6cd stacker with WMA/MP3 support and ID3 tag/folder support and cost half the price of these luxury sedans! Even Mazda3 comes with a 6cd stacker IIRC.

The point was that a luxury car that asks a premium price should have a stacker as standard...like it is on your civic.

Not too sure about push button starts- but even the $30k Renault Megane comes with that.

I'm talking about keyless pushbutton start. In that the key only has to be on your body for the car to sense ignition. You then only have to push the button. To open the locked car you only need to touch the door handles for the car to sense you have the key on you and to open the doors. The key never leaves your pocket.

For BMW and for Renault you have to insert the key into the car and then press the button. The Lexus system is called 'comfort access' in BMW speak - it costs $1250.

 

[seremify007]

The 6.5 inch screen is not satnav. Thats just idrive minus the satnav. To get satnav you need the 6900 option.

For example the base 5 series gets i drive but not sat nav...ie the 6.5 inch screen. BMW stanav only works on the larger widescreen professional screen.

You should note on the options list the 6.5 screen says 'colour monitor and radio navigation'. Whereas the 8.8 inch screen is described as 'professional navigation system'.

Are you saying that from fact or speculation? Because I'm pretty sure the "radio navigation" implies some form of satellite navigation. I'd compare to our own cars, but in Malaysia, there is no sat nav available so the feature isn't enabled on any of our 5/6/7 series BMWs. Only our 330Ci has it enabled because it was the Singaporean model.

... this is what I found from Wikipedia's article on iDrive;

The iDrive system is installed if the car is specified to included the satellite navigation option. This comes in two varieties - Business, and Professional. The Business edition has a smaller screen in a ratio which is closer to 4:3, whereas the Professional option fills the screen area with a full widescreen display. This means there is more screen real-estate for the iDrive system to use. It fills this space by placing an Info pane on the right hand side of the screen. The contents of this panel can be changed to suit the driver's needs. For example, while the main screen shows Entertainment options, the Info pane can be set to show the current navigation map view, or information on the local area. As with other portions of the iDrive screens, the Info pane is accessed by very quickly nudging the control knob to the right and letting it go. The Info pane will appear with a border around it. Pressing the control knob down will show a menu of what can be displayed.

I know it's still a tad ambiguous as to whether or not that means it includes satnav, but I'm pretty sure at that price, it's inclusive of satnav.

The point was that a luxury car that asks a premium price should have a stacker as standard...like it is on your civic.

I think it's more of a freebie gimmick which cheaper car companies throw in to woo customers, whereas people who buy BMWs/Benzes probably aren't going to let something like that be the deciding factor; and if they want it, they'll pay for the option.

I'm talking about keyless pushbutton start. In that the key only has to be on your body for the car to sense ignition. You then only have to push the button. To open the locked car you only need to touch the door handles for the car to sense you have the key on you and to open the doors. The key never leaves your pocket.

For BMW and for Renault you have to insert the key into the car and then press the button. The Lexus system is called 'comfort access' in BMW speak - it costs $1250.

I'll take your word for it. I don't have the 3 series brochure on me atm to have a look at but I wouldn't be surprised if it was $1250 for the system whereby the key never leaves your pocket to unlock the door/start the engine... but the system whereby you have a button to start the engine is standard fare I think.