Liberal or Labor? (4 Viewers)

[Optimus Prime]

good point, Judge Reinholdt is presiding.

 

[MrFunkyMonk]

Liberal are sounding pretty good... Nobody makes speedos work like tony abbott

 

[Graney]

I personally think Angus Young is one of the most over-rated guitarists of the modern era. And I play guitar, and I listen to classic rock. He's acknowledged ACDC have made the same album 10 or so times; there's some quote out there somewhere about it. Hendrix on the other hand, that's where it's at.

I don't like English, so good work there. But you've just proven what I set out to prove! A long-term benefit to humanity is not going to be economically reflected exactly in what someone earns. Look at Van Gogh. No-one gave a fuck while he was alive; and yet now he's one of the best painters ever, supposedly.

Van Gogh needed a better publicist, willing to work tirelessly to promote his work at the risk of diminishing his personal fortune, and had that publicist succeded, given the hard work involved, risk invested, and value of work he helped add to humanity, he would have been deserving of his 'relative to modern currency' millions in financial rewards.

You're right about the variable recognition of artist and financial return. Who can determine the value an artist delivers to humanity? My point is simple~
1. Great artists such as mozart produce more value than even an exceptional high school teacher, and deserve commensurate rewards.
2. The only way to determine who is and isn't a great artist is by consumer preference. Not all great artists are popular, but all popular artists are great. People only spend their money on artworks that they feel enrich their lives significantly and depart satisfaction to them to a greater degree than they could receive from purchasing the art of any competing artist. Ergo the most purchased art is the most meaningful to the most people.

 

[TacoTerrorist]

LOL

Hey come on man, I can admit when I don't know enough about something to give a reasonable answer - more than most people on these boards. I also remember defending your ass from rabid douchebags at least once on another thread.

Hierarchy is emergent.

Some people are better at leading than others. Being good at managing a company is more scarce a skill than what is possessed by the labourers. It is harder to find a competent CEo than a competent labourer, and CEOS are capable of adding far more vlaue to a company than any individual labourer could ever hope to.

But let me guess, you believe in the labour theory of value, don't you? hahaha pathetic.

They invest in ventures, which involves risk. You act like profits should be shared equally, but don't you think its only fair the loss is shared equally among the labourers? i.e. if a company loses $1 million and has 1000 employees, they each have their pay docked by $1000?

But, dude, I don't give a fuck about debating capitalism vs capitalism, because I don't support it. Companies should not exist in the first place, and thus our argument is void. I don't support wage-labour, I don't support usury or profit, or any of that capitalist bullshit than enables the dominion of one man over another.

Business men are the ones responsible for our societies high standards of living.

Socialism doesn't work, no matter how romantic the rhetoric supporting it is.
The free market helps people, especially the poor.

I'm not a socialist, I'm a syndicalist, a small distinction. The 'free market' helps the rich get richer by cutting wages and benefits to their wage-slaves and the poor get richer by enabling them to work in a sweatshop. The 'free market' lets large oil companies like Halliburton rape Iraq, it lets pharmaceutical companies jack up prices because people have no other option but to pay them.

 

[absorber]

Van Gogh needed a better publicist, willing to work tirelessly to promote his work at the risk of diminishing his personal fortune, and had that publicist succeded, given the hard work involved, risk invested, and value of work he helped add to humanity, he would have been deserving of his 'relative to modern currency' millions in financial rewards.

You're right about the variable recognition of artist and financial return. Who can determine the value an artist delivers to humanity? My point is simple~
1. Great artists such as mozart produce more value than even an exceptional high school teacher, and deserve commensurate rewards.
2. The only way to determine who is and isn't a great artist is by consumer preference. Not all great artists are popular, but all popular artists are great. People only spend their money on artworks that they feel enrich their lives significantly and depart satisfaction to them to a greater degree than they could receive from purchasing the art of any competing artist. Ergo the most purchased art is the most meaningful to the most people.

What about a propaganda advertising campaign for a product that makes people purchase it even if it's horrible for them? Something almost like smoking, for example?
The executives of cigarette companies'd be loaded. And yet they impose more costs on society than benefits. The whole point is that economic models fail to fairly attribute money. I agree with most of the above, but it's not what I'm arguing.

 

[SylviaB]

Hey come on man, I can admit when I don't know enough about something to give a reasonable answer - more than most people on these boards. I also remember defending your ass from rabid douchebags at least once on another thread.

I just think you should be a touch more thoughtful about being vehemently opposed to some huge economic system when your economics isn't so strong.

But, dude, I don't give a fuck about debating capitalism vs capitalism, because I don't support it. Companies should not exist in the first place, and thus our argument is void.

What if people want to work for a company? what if people don't want to take on the financial risk assumed by becoming part of a syndicate?

How would you stop hierarchal frims springing up in a stateless society?

The 'free market' helps the rich get richer by cutting wages and benefits to their wage-slaves and the poor get richer by enabling them to work in a sweatshop.

On a legitimate free market there would be far too many jobs to pay your employees poorly.

On a free market there would be far greater income equality.

The 'free market' lets large oil companies like Halliburton rape Iraq, it lets pharmaceutical companies jack up prices because people have no other option but to pay them.

What would you rather?

Important drugs being extremely expensive, or said drugs not existing at all?

Pharmaceutical companies in (the more so than other places) capitalist America are responsible for the vast majority of the world's medical breakthroughs.

 

[Lentern]

I just think you should be a touch more thoughtful about being vehemently opposed to some huge economic system when your economics isn't so strong.



What if people want to work for a company? what if people don't want to take on the financial risk assumed by becoming part of a syndicate?

How would you stop hierarchal frims springing up in a stateless society?



On a legitimate free market there would be far too many jobs to pay your employees poorly.

On a free market there would be far greater income equality.



What would you rather?

Important drugs being extremely expensive, or said drugs not existing at all?

Pharmaceutical companies in (the more so than other places) capitalist America are responsible for the vast majority of the world's medical breakthroughs.

Don't try and reason with him taco, he'll steal your soul!

 

[Graney]

What would you rather?

Important drugs being extremely expensive, or said drugs not existing at all?

Pharmaceutical companies in (the more so than other places) capitalist America are responsible for the vast majority of the world's medical breakthroughs.

Pharmaceuticals are only expensive because of IP laws- which are a statist thing. The government crushes competition. Generics ye.

Depends on your stance as a pro or anti-IP libertarian. In either case, copyright protections that increasingly are extending for 70 years or more are retarded.

 

[Graney]

The 'free market' lets large oil companies like Halliburton rape Iraq,

Also, whatever horrible things halliburton is able to do to iraq has a lot more to do with the evil of statism, than it does with the free market.

 

[withoutaface]

From an economic perspective I don't know the answer to this, to be honest. However, from a sociological perspective

This is where I stopped reading the thread.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Haliburton and stuff wouldn't be able to "fuck up Iraq" if it wasn't for nation states going to war

 

[SylviaB]

Pharmaceuticals are only expensive because of IP laws- which are a statist thing. The government crushes competition. Generics ye.

Depends on your stance as a pro or anti-IP libertarian. In either case, copyright protections that increasingly are extending for 70 years or more are retarded.

Oh no, don't worry, I'm against IP. It is absurd to suggest one can 'own' ideas.
But even without IP laws, drug innovation would still be greatest in the US.


Excellent video on the subject of IP and research.

[youtube]jH0QLIO85BI[/youtube]


What makes me laugh is that a common claim in favour of the state's existence is monopoly busting. "Just look at Microsoft. Lucky the state was there to stop them" when in reality the thing that helped Microsoft the most was the state's copyright laws.

 

[zombie omie jay]

guys

you should have stopped arguing when he tried to say lawyers make more than engineers

cmon

 

[-Lemon-]

chemical engineering, because it is one of the fucking backbones of modern society

talking to an engineer is like talking to a kitchen bench, they have no capacity for creative/independent thoughts, all they can do is plug numbers into formula developed by mathematicians.
Society doesn't value engineers today (as reflected in the fact their mean income in 2008/2009 was $69,500), and it's because computers basically do their job now, today's engineers just sit next to the computers and check the outputs for safety reasons.

It's sad to think that so many young people can get swindled down this 'engineering' career path, they think that there gong to be designing robots or creating new chemical products, but in reality they become 'data analyst' at sewage processing plants or 'product standards officer' ay a toothpaste factory assembly line.

 

[SylviaB]

yeah calculators just magically invent innovative technologies themselves I mean fuck

 

[-Lemon-]

yeah calculators just magically invent innovative technologies themselves I mean fuck

exactly, and engineers are just outdated calculators, they don't invent anything, they follow instructions about how to check chemical levels at waste treatment plants, etc..
Can you name one famous engineer in the last decade? Didn't think so.
Is Steve jobs an engineer? Didn't think so.
Do engineers get paid less than brick layers? Thought So.

 

[SylviaB]

oh


wow

 

[zombie omie jay]

talking to an engineer is like talking to a kitchen bench, they have no capacity for creative/independent thoughts, all they can do is plug numbers into formula developed by mathematicians.
Society doesn't value engineers today (as reflected in the fact their mean income in 2008/2009 was $69,500), and it's because computers basically do their job now, today's engineers just sit next to the computers and check the outputs for safety reasons.

It's sad to think that so many young people can get swindled down this 'engineering' career path, they think that there gong to be designing robots or creating new chemical products, but in reality they become 'data analyst' at sewage processing plants or 'product standards officer' ay a toothpaste factory assembly line.

lol that sounds like an average grad degree im thinkin buddy

you have a very poor understanding of engineering

quite cute actually

 

[zombie omie jay]

engineering is one of the few fields where innovation is encouraged

if you disagree you know fuckall about engineering

 

[Kim Il-Sung]

lol at NCAP version of the typical BoS uni degree shitfight

fuckin pathetic