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Libertarian movement (2 Viewers)

chelsea girl

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People who believe in the complete abolishment of government, can you please help me understand this:

Surely we can mostly agree that what makes a government "evil" is the people representing it. Yes, you can say "government is inherently evil" but, theoretically, anything can work perfectly if it is run correctly and with good intentions (surely this is how you come to the conclusions that, say, an AC society would be best: by using a hypothetical in which the system works perfectly?)

So why, then, do you think that in the absence of an organised government body the natural instincts of people in positions of power to fuck others over would cease to exist? There will always be an imbalance of power in society, however we measure it (animals do so based on physical strength, size, masculinity, etc); don't you think it's something that needs to be accepted rather than denied?

Get rid of the government and some other organisation will take control, you know that very well. People are designed to either be leaders or followers, with the vast majority being the latter. They will inevitably fall into place once a new measure of power is established.
 

TacoTerrorist

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chelsea girl said:
Get rid of the government and some other organisation will take control, you know that very well. People are designed to either be leaders or followers, with the vast majority being the latter. They will inevitably fall into place once a new measure of power is established.
An Anarchist society would be comprised of syndicates, which would hopefully level the playing field somewhat in terms of economic power. Without an organised police force of some description any 'organisation [that] will take control' would be physically inept to deal with its vengeful underlings.

My point is, in an Anarchist society the people who could be trodden on by a rising conglomerate of power would not allow it to happen. The only thing stopping this from occuring now is both the police force and the mindset of the average person which has been in a sense controlled by corporate media.
 

chelsea girl

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My point is, in an Anarchist society the people who could be trodden on by a rising conglomerate of power would not allow it to happen. The only thing stopping this from occuring now is both the police force and the mindset of the average person which has been in a sense controlled by corporate media.
But that's the thing, you are basing this on the assumption that the majority of people don't want someone to lead them and won't fall into line if a powerful group takes control. This is purely hypothetical and you must consider human nature and human psychology before making these assumptions.

I do agree that the average person's mindset has been controlled by external forces, but also argue that it is because the average person wants to feel like there is something bigger and more powerful looking after them. Why do you think religion is/has ever been popular?

This is why I think an AC society is completely unrealistic and absolutely would never work.
 

TacoTerrorist

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chelsea girl said:
But that's the thing, you are basing this on the assumption that the majority of people don't want someone to lead them and won't fall into line if a powerful group takes control. This is purely hypothetical and you must consider human nature and human psychology before making these assumptions.
You make a good point. Although one must consider whether this effect is fundamental human nature or the structure of the dog-eat-dog capitalist system. One day, perhaps not even in our lifetimes, people will break free from the chains of dependence and each person can become independent and free of any and all trappings, although I'm not sure human society is ready for this.

chelsea girl said:
I do agree that the average person's mindset has been controlled by external forces, but also argue that it is because the average person wants to feel like there is something bigger and more powerful looking after them. Why do you think religion is/has ever been popular?
I agree, I think it's a combination of both. People finding solace in the claim that the government is looking after everyone and protecting them from the things they fear, e.g terrorism. Religion in the past was more of a construct and very much a part of a person's life, although often not by choice. As people become more commercialised and countries more globalised, religion has less of an importance on people's lives (in the first world). religion is largely becoming irrelevant, not so much by conscious abandonment, but by apathy.

chelsea girl said:
This is why I think an AC society is completely unrealistic and absolutely would never work.
By the same token I don't think the statist capitalist system 'works' either.
 

volition

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People who believe in the complete abolishment of government, can you please help me understand this:
Chelsea girl, the point is not that people will magically change into angels w/o govt. The point is that at least w/o govt, this is one less avenue for people to push their costs onto other people unfairly and rule over them.

This point is about delegitimisation of the power to rule over other people. It's the difference between a highway robber and the govt. At least the highway robber is straight up about the fact that he's just stealing your cash. The govt claims that it is taking your money "for your own good/for the greater good"! So at least when there is no government, people who want to steal/destroy other people's stuff can't hide under the 'government' excuse. They have to pay to fund their own warfare (unlike the current system where some people decide to go to war, and everyone pays) Put shortly, the biggest problem with the government right now, is that people think it is morally correct to redistribute resources by force and to regulate other people against their will. When this attitude is changed it will become a lot harder to rule over other people.

I'm not suggesting that everything will be perfect under ACism, just that it would be better. I'm suggesting that statism does not make sense as a solution and that given the same society, things would be better off in ACism than under statism.

Let's say you had a microcosm of a nation, in a small town of about 30 households/families. Let's say they've all just arrived (for whatever reason), and they're now deciding how to run their society. Would it really make sense to say "Oh well we shouldn't all have our own protection, we should all give up our guns to the Jones family and put them in charge of everything"?
 
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volition

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I do agree that the average person's mindset has been controlled by external forces, but also argue that it is because the average person wants to feel like there is something bigger and more powerful looking after them. Why do you think religion is/has ever been popular?
There is an extremely simple answer to this: If people WANT to be controlled by external forces, then there is nothing stopping them voluntarily subscribing or joining an association that is "state like".
 

badquinton304

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Let's say you had a microcosm of a nation, in a small town of about 30 households/families. Let's say they've all just arrived (for whatever reason), and they're now deciding how to run their society. Would it really make sense to say "Oh well we shouldn't all have our own protection, we should all give up our guns to the Jones family and put them in charge of everything"?
Not all states function like a fascist regime.
 

loquasagacious

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Let's say you had a microcosm of a nation, in a small town of about 30 households/families. Let's say they've all just arrived (for whatever reason), and they're now deciding how to run their society. Would it really make sense to say "Oh well we shouldn't all have our own protection, we should all give up our guns to the Jones family and put them in charge of everything"?
Look at history. How do you think tribes work? Sure the Chiefs family doesn't have all the weapons (because tribes are too small for this type of specialisation to work) but they certainly are in charge.

I agree with Zoe as I believe the AC system would be essentially 'Mad Max' in nature. By removing the state and it's monopoly on the legal use of force you open a pandoras box. There are some great things in there (freedom and such) but down the bottom, inescapably, you find the principle that 'might is right'.

In society there are always the strong and the weak, one of the functions that the state can (and should) perform is protecting the weak from the strong. Preventing the strong from coercing the weak. Remove the state and you remove this protection. The strong will use violence or the threat of violence to enforce their will on others.

The AC argument seems to run that this will not happen because the weak will hire some strong to fight off other strong. This ignores the fact that the weak will not always be able to afford this protection. It is not financially possible for them to hire protection, not financially viable for someone to offer it - but it is financially viable for the strong to kill them and take their possessions (the benefit is low but the cost is very low) or perhaps to enslave them (again the benefit can be low because the cost is low).

But of course the AC argument also ignores the fact that where the weak can afford the protection that at a minimum the hired strong will be essentially engaging in a protection racket. More likely is that the hired strong will become the oppressors.

But surely in an AC society the weak would still be armed and could resist the strong themselves? Economics 101: specialisation. The strong are specialised in oppressing the weak. They have the better equipment, better organisation and more practice. The weak are specialised in other kinds of work. They will likely possess poorer equipment, they will certainly be less organised and they will be definitionally less practised.

The AC will say that an armed populace who knows the local conditions can wage an insurgency war. It is true. They can. There is no reason to think that they will be successful though. Insurgencies are only relevant against an occupation and the strong may have no need to do that. The strong can extract rents through threats and can back these threats with punitive strikes (raze a village to intimidate another village). They can also raid for resources or slaves.

Even if they did occupy and an insurgency was initiated why would it succeed? History tells us that insurgencies typically incur far more causalities than they inflict and more importantly insurgencies do not have access to the resources that oppressors do. Insurgencies are almost always supported by a friendly state, China/Moscow supplied the Viet Cong, US supplied the Mujahideen, Iran supplies Hezzbollah, the British supplied the Guerrilleros, etc etc etc. Without outside support insurgencies are starved of the equipment required to fight.

In an AC society the strong have a favourable cost-benefit in oppressing the weak. Historically the strong have always oppressed the weak. Taking things by force is part of human nature. Why would this be any different in an AC society? The lesson of communism is that a system which requires a new or different human will fail.


Note: above arguments also apply to the majority v the minority
 

jennyfromdabloc

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I agree with Zoe as I believe the AC system would be essentially 'Mad Max' in nature. By removing the state and it's monopoly on the legal use of force you open a pandoras box. There are some great things in there (freedom and such) but down the bottom, inescapably, you find the principle that 'might is right'.
The world is "Mad Max" right now! Might is right. There is no world government regulating actions between nation states. These nuclear armed behemoths just make up the rules as they go along.

Right now a coalition of democratic nations is in the middle east for no good reason occupying two countries based on false pretenses, and has killed over a million people since the war started, not to mention the millions of orphaned children and people starving right now! Hundreds of millions have been slaughtered by governments in the last century.

They are not accountable to anyone. The US government does whatever it wants. Other countries do whatever they want as long as its not the US government's interests to intervene. There is no order regulating this. We have anarchy right now on an enormous and terrifying scale.

In society there are always the strong and the weak, one of the functions that the state can (and should) perform is protecting the weak from the strong. Preventing the strong from coercing the weak. Remove the state and you remove this protection. The strong will use violence or the threat of violence to enforce their will on others.
What protection? The state institutionalizes the exploitation and coercion of the weak. The average worker pays 30-40% of their income in tax. The extremely wealthy pay far less because they have the resources to evade taxes and they receive massive government subsidies and recently direct bailouts.

The AC argument seems to run that this will not happen because the weak will hire some strong to fight off other strong. This ignores the fact that the weak will not always be able to afford this protection. It is not financially possible for them to hire protection, not financially viable for someone to offer it - but it is financially viable for the strong to kill them and take their possessions (the benefit is low but the cost is very low) or perhaps to enslave them (again the benefit can be low because the cost is low).
This makes no sense. Hiring people to kill poor people for their meager possessions is expensive. Hiring people to enslave others and supervise them so they don't escape is even more expensive.

The only way to do any of this is to pay armed soldier to round them up. So to defend themselves, all the poor really need is access to guns, which can be purchased for as little as $100.

So even if the evil army of the rich has better guns and better trained soldiers, its still going to need a lot of soldiers, perhaps a ratio of 1 soldier for every 2 poor people being enslaved. That's hugely expensive. Slavery almost only works when the slaves are disarmed and/or convinced that it is their duty to be slaved.

But of course the AC argument also ignores the fact that where the weak can afford the protection that at a minimum the hired strong will be essentially engaging in a protection racket. More likely is that the hired strong will become the oppressors.
How is this a fact? Especially if instead of being forced to use the services of one protection firm (the government), people actually have a choice and security firms have to compete for business.

But surely in an AC society the weak would still be armed and could resist the strong themselves? Economics 101: specialisation. The strong are specialised in oppressing the weak. They have the better equipment, better organisation and more practice. The weak are specialised in other kinds of work. They will likely possess poorer equipment, they will certainly be less organised and they will be definitionally less practised.
Economics 101: Specialization and training is expensive. You seem to imagine these rich oppressors as people with bottomless pockets, creating private armies for the sake of being evil. It is almost certainly cheaper to just pay workers and treat them reasonably, rather than paying armies to round them up as slaves.

The AC will say that an armed populace who knows the local conditions can wage an insurgency war. It is true. They can. There is no reason to think that they will be successful though. Insurgencies are only relevant against an occupation and the strong may have no need to do that. The strong can extract rents through threats and can back these threats with punitive strikes (raze a village to intimidate another village). They can also raid for resources or slaves.
Sure. Their are no guarantees. I'm sure some terrible things would happen at some point in an AC world. No one is saying it will be utopian. Only that it would be better than the current situation where the poor are systematically exploited and abused by governments, and millions are routinely killed in wars between nation states.


In an AC society the strong have a favourable cost-benefit in oppressing the weak. Historically the strong have always oppressed the weak. Taking things by force is part of human nature. Why would this be any different in an AC society? The lesson of communism is that a system which requires a new or different human will fail.


Note: above arguments also apply to the majority v the minority
Because historically the "weak" are always disarmed. Even in Vietnam, the majority of Vietnamese people did not have guns.

Look at Switzerland, with its tiny but armed population it was able to deter much more powerful forces from occupying her in two world wars.

Also if we look at history, the "strong" are almost always governments, not private armies. The strong get strong by forcing others to pay for their wars. The oil companies and defense contractors in the US might have deep pockets, but could they really afford to fund the wars they are waging themselves without robbing the taxpayers. The strong don't just use force to maintain their strength, they are heavily reliant on brainwashing the subjugated people to do what they want. In the developed world, their method is lauding the greatness of democracy and creating fear of terrorism. The strong also use religion, fear and personality cults to get people to co-operate without having to use the expense of force.

In an ACist society where most people don't accept anyone trying to rule them as "legitimate," its going to make it much HARDER for any would be rulers. As I said though, I'm the first to admit there are no guarantees, just like there are no guarantees now. AC does not make violence and coersion impossible, it just makes it more expensive to use.
 
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Omar-Comin

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Well right now Somalia is about the closet thing to an 'anarchist' utopia you'll find, yet curiously enough, I don't see many libertarians flocking there..

All this huff and puff seems pretty pathetic if you're not going to back it up with real action.
 

loquasagacious

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The world is "Mad Max" right now! Might is right. There is no world government regulating actions between nation states. These nuclear armed behemoths just make up the rules as they go along.

Right now a coalition of democratic nations is in the middle east for no good reason occupying two countries based on false pretenses, and has killed over a million people since the war started, not to mention the millions of orphaned children and people starving right now! Hundreds of millions have been slaughtered by governments in the last century.

They are not accountable to anyone. The US government does whatever it wants. Other countries do whatever they want as long as its not the US government's interests to intervene. There is no order regulating this. We have anarchy right now on an enormous and terrifying scale.
Yes the international system is anarchic (sup realism). Yes the strong state oppress the weak states. This is actually a perfect illustration of my point. Without an overarching authority the strong will oppress and exploit the weak. Removing states just means that this occurs on the local level.


What protection? The state institutionalizes the exploitation and coercion of the weak. The average worker pays 30-40% of their income in tax. The extremely wealthy pay far less because they have the resources to evade taxes and they receive massive government subsidies and recently direct bailouts.
The state maintains the monopoly on legal oppression. The machinery of the state includes law and order. Police and the justice system. The laws themselves (which I often disagree with) are immaterial to this. The point is that the system of law and order can protect the weak from exploitation, slavery, murder, assault, enforce contracts and torts, etc.

This makes no sense. Hiring people to kill poor people for their meager possessions is expensive. Hiring people to enslave others and supervise them so they don't escape is even more expensive.
Who said anything about hiring people. The strong could simply band together and rove around oppressing and rent-seeking. Certainly the incentives are there. All I need to do is grab some friends and some guns (the latter of which you suggest I could purchase for as little as $100ea) and now my associates and I can get busy with highway robbery/rape/murder, protection rackets, etc etc. There will be other similar groups and we can have turf wars. It'll be great.

Why wouldn't an AC society descend into the Wild West?

So even if the evil army of the rich has better guns and better trained soldiers, its still going to need a lot of soldiers, perhaps a ratio of 1 soldier for every 2 poor people being enslaved. That's hugely expensive. Slavery almost only works when the slaves are disarmed and/or convinced that it is their duty to be slaved.
You overestimate the numbers required. An aggressor requires sufficient strength to overpower or coerce those who will resist. This group is typically far less than the total population. A 2-1 ratio may enable the resistors to be overpowered but why bother when they can simply be coerced? Make the cost of them resisting more than they can stomach. For example seize some hostages, slaughter some people, or otherwise demonstrate the cost of resistance.

Once they give in and have been disarmed the level of required oppressors is greatly reduced, and therefore the bulk of the original oppressors can be redeployed to oppress other people.

How is this a fact? Especially if instead of being forced to use the services of one protection firm (the government), people actually have a choice and security firms have to compete for business.
Look at any protection racket. For new firms there are significant barriers to entry in the market. For consumers the cost to switch is prohibitive. Security firms would become oppressors just like triad gangs do. And just like triad gangs the only way a community gets a new one is when a turf war breaks out and the ownership of the community changes to a new gang.

Economics 101: Specialization and training is expensive. You seem to imagine these rich oppressors as people with bottomless pockets, creating private armies for the sake of being evil. It is almost certainly cheaper to just pay workers and treat them reasonably, rather than paying armies to round them up as slaves.
Refer to blood diamonds and other exploitation it can be quite cheap to use slaves. That is the whole point.


Because historically the "weak" are always disarmed. Even in Vietnam, the majority of Vietnamese people did not have guns.
And why would the weak be armed in an AC world?

Also if we look at history, the "strong" are almost always governments, not private armies. The strong get strong by forcing others to pay for their wars. The oil companies and defense contractors in the US might have deep pockets, but could they really afford to fund the wars they are waging themselves without robbing the taxpayers.
East India Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also is it really that inconceivable that chevron could hire/partner/JV with blackwater? Certainly the prices at the moment are prohibitive but imo that reflects blackwater's rent-seeking not a fair indication of the market price.

In an ACist society where most people don't accept anyone trying to rule them as "legitimate," its going to make it much HARDER for any would be rulers.
me said:
The lesson of communism is that a system which requires a new or different human will fail.
 

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Thinking that people will be more free with the removal of a state is really naive. Although the effectiveness of a government is subject to the people that comprise it and the people that vote it in, without a state people will still have bad natures and create their own structures of coercion. Unless you and those that you associate with had the ability to stop others doing what they want, they would do just that. Ignoring all else, opportunism would reign, people would not be restricted from doing what they want and threatening those that they want. Society would simply be comprised of small groups protecting themselves and threatening each other, and when one group was able to gain the ascendancy they would be able to form their own pseudo state anyway.

People against a state don't seem to understand that if people want to interact with each other in way shape or form then coercion will be the main form with which they do that, and heirachies and pseudo states will proliferate. A government with separated powers is a much more desirable situation than this. That's not to say that the state shouldn't be minimal.
 
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loquasagacious

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Which part of what I said is wrong?
I guess that moll meant that the swiss were not protected by their arms in WWI and WWII but rather by their neutrality. Also due to the terrain I don't believe that switzerland was strategically important.
 

badquinton304

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Which part of what I said is wrong?
It wasnt because of the armed populace. The swiss had a tactical advantage due to terrain and had an integrated defence system near the border to prevent tanks and shit coming through the armed populace was not what detered the germans. Do you think ordinary citizens can stand a chance against well armed soldiers and tanks? Of course not thats why so many people fled from the country. So the swiss were protected by a smart border defence strategy combined with thier neutral status.
 

moll.

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I guess that moll meant that the swiss were not protected by their arms in WWI and WWII but rather by their neutrality. Also due to the terrain I don't believe that switzerland was strategically important.
This. You honestly think that the Kaiser or Hitler could have given a crap about a few million angry bankers when both declared war on the full force of the unrivalled American industrial machine?
 

vikraman

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History fail jennyfdb. Hitler didn't want switzerland because it was

a) effectively useless to him (note another neutral country sweden effectively surrendered to him after he conquered norway coz they had iron ore, and shitloads of it.)

b) prohibitively costly to invade (try running tanks through mountainous snow. even with modern weaponry today that is nigh impossible. 70 years ago?!)

c)omg its switzerland such a giant military threat with their HUGE POPULATION AND 10 MILLIONG STRONG ARMY AND 6726341927436182783618273 GUNS AND TANK OMFG. yeah.

d) their money was useless to him.
 

dieburndie

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Well right now Somalia is about the closet thing to an 'anarchist' utopia you'll find, yet curiously enough, I don't see many libertarians flocking there...
Well you've got a point there. Anarchy has destroyed the previously wealthy, peaceful and politically stable nation.

You can keep posting, but not even those on your side are taking you seriously so I don't really see the point.
 

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