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Major work and Moses (1 Viewer)

bored6

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Hey all

Im considering doing my major work on evaulating the differing views of who Moses may have been but i've come across a few issues...

1) Would this be considered a good "subject" to do it on? I know theres plently of information but does it fulfill the histographical requirement well?

2) Does anyone have any particular reccomendations on specific books / historians that I could use?

Thanks :)
 
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xeuyrawp

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1) I think it would be an awesome subject. I haven't heard of anybody doing it yet. If you pulled it off, it would be a great work.

2) I'd have a quick look at Assmann's Moses the Egyptian, which analyses what kind of Egyptian roots the religious figure has.

What kind of question were you looking to construct?
 

bored6

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PwarYuex said:
1) I think it would be an awesome subject. I haven't heard of anybody doing it yet. If you pulled it off, it would be a great work.

2) I'd have a quick look at Assmann's Moses the Egyptian, which analyses what kind of Egyptian roots the religious figure has.

What kind of question were you looking to construct?
Perhaps something along the lines of :

"Evaulate the different interpretations of Moses throughout the ages"

Seems a little basic at the moment I know.

Thanks for advice, i'll check out moses the Egyptian
 

Dave2007

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Itd be good for your historiography section, being able to bag out the bias of "religious historians", or say finding some other historian is totally opposed to religion.

Sounds like a good project idea.

Also question, are you going to count the bible as a "historical reference book", or a source? And a primary source or a secondary source at that?
 

bored6

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Yeah I think I actucally, and take delight it in through the process, being the sterotypical angry white atheist :)
 
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xeuyrawp

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If you want to Bible-bash, I can introduce you to Boyo Ockinga and Ken Kitchen. Both are Bible historicits and will destroy any kind of argument you have.

Take my word for it: Don't involve yourself too much with the historicity side of the debate. Do not ask the question 'how real was Moses?'. Obviously you're going to have to address the Bible as a source, so maybe take a hermeneutic approach with regards to that. But really, it can lead you on such a tangent as the Bible is viewed as a 'text' and as such critiqued as a whole. You really don't want to do that.

If you want to do a bit along the historicity side, maybe do something involving archaeology / comparitive history or something.

Put it this way: The Gospel and related texts are the only sources for Moses' life. Saying 'because the Bible is shit, therefore Moses did not exist as the Bible says' is a fallacy. Really, if there is no evidence to contradict the Bible, good scholarship suggests that he did exist and did exactly what the Bible says.

I suppose you could look into things like Strabo and Tacitus, those would be good. On second thoughts, how about looking into how the perception of Moses changed in early times? Really, modern views of Moses are the same as 1600 views. However, how do the earliest sources compare with the sources of Late Antiquity?

That would be an awesome question, although it would require a lot of work. At the very least, I'd hope that you tackle the idea that Moses as a figure changed most in ancient times.
 

bored6

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PwarYuex said:
If you want to Bible-bash, I can introduce you to Boyo Ockinga and Ken Kitchen. Both are Bible historicits and will destroy any kind of argument you have.

Take my word for it: Don't involve yourself too much with the historicity side of the debate. Do not ask the question 'how real was Moses?'. Obviously you're going to have to address the Bible as a source, so maybe take a hermeneutic approach with regards to that. But really, it can lead you on such a tangent as the Bible is viewed as a 'text' and as such critiqued as a whole. You really don't want to do that.

If you want to do a bit along the historicity side, maybe do something involving archaeology / comparitive history or something.

Put it this way: The Gospel and related texts are the only sources for Moses' life. Saying 'because the Bible is shit, therefore Moses did not exist as the Bible says' is a fallacy. Really, if there is no evidence to contradict the Bible, good scholarship suggests that he did exist and did exactly what the Bible says.

I suppose you could look into things like Strabo and Tacitus, those would be good. On second thoughts, how about looking into how the perception of Moses changed in early times? Really, modern views of Moses are the same as 1600 views. However, how do the earliest sources compare with the sources of Late Antiquity?

That would be an awesome question, although it would require a lot of work. At the very least, I'd hope that you tackle the idea that Moses as a figure changed most in ancient times.
Lol, my atheist rant wasn't completly serious but I understand where your coming from.

Ancient interpretations do sound interesting and sound to be more fruitful but do you think if I say, included one or two modern views on Moses it would be worthwhile?

Also, by ancient interpretations I presume you mean islamic/jewish/christian and then tacitus and strabo and Flavius Josephus? In my preliminary research, due to the large nature of the topic, its hard to establish what could effectively be used as a means to contrast perceptions

Thanks for the help
 
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xeuyrawp

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bored6 said:
Lol, my atheist rant wasn't completly serious but I understand where your coming from.

Ancient interpretations do sound interesting and sound to be more fruitful but do you think if I say, included one or two modern views on Moses it would be worthwhile?
With the two modern views: What about two modern camps? I assume there are intellectual camps when it comes to Moses (eg Functionalism versus intentionalism with the Holocaust).

Also, by ancient interpretations I presume you mean islamic/jewish/christian and then tacitus and strabo and Flavius Josephus? In my preliminary research, due to the large nature of the topic, its hard to establish what could effectively be used as a means to contrast perceptions

Thanks for the help
I didn't mean it, but that's an interesting idea.

I meant more along the lines of seeing how the 'original' Moses developed into this complex (and differing) narrative that we have today.
 

Topher15

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I have done an essay on moses before we did it for our investigation in Yr 11 and it was great, there is alot of archeaological evidence however be weary when looking at Ron Wyatt has he has been discredited on many things (even by his family) but yes it is an interesting topic and well worth doing.
the question i did i kinda forgot but it was likw
'Does archeaological evidence and historical records prove or disprove the existance of the biblical moses'
 
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xeuyrawp

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Topher15 said:
I have done an essay on moses before we did it for our investigation in Yr 11 and it was great, there is alot of archeaological evidence however be weary when looking at Ron Wyatt has he has been discredited on many things (even by his family) but yes it is an interesting topic and well worth doing.
the question i did i kinda forgot but it was likw
'Does archeaological evidence and historical records prove or disprove the existance of the biblical moses'
Um, what archaeological evidence? Show me one piece of archaeological evidence that either supports or disproves the Biblical Moses. That's a ridiculous question, and a waste of time, I'm affraid. =/

And lol @ Ron Wyatt's conspiracy theory bullshit.
 

Topher15

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Are you serious there is so much evidence of joseph and the isralites and there exodus. obviosly you are one of those people that dont look very hard into something because they dont want to find the answer as you are scared it will oppose what you belive, however if you do look there is plently of evidence, like the chariot wheels and horse and human bones in the red sea and the sour wells where the isrealites were told not to drink and the calf epigraphs and alter where the golden calf was placed. oh and even the burnt top of the mountian that is next to the alter. oh and of course the paining in the tombs of Ram II of him chasing slaves out of egypt. ohh and the papyrus documents that say that there was a sever drop in the number of slaves that the egyptians were in control of. oh and all this is dated to the same time. so if you look you never know what u'll find. oh and if you even think of coming back with well there is no evidence on mount sinia, it was not named mt sinai until centuries years after the exodus.
 
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xeuyrawp

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Topher15 said:
Are you serious there is so much evidence of joseph and the isralites and there exodus. obviosly you are one of those people that dont look very hard into something because they dont want to find the answer as you are scared it will oppose what you belive, however if you do look there is plently of evidence,
That's a pretty tough call considering you don't know me. I only believe what I see.

There is no archaeological evidence of the Exodus. All Exodus historicitists use philological evidence -- ie, writing -- to support their claims.

like the chariot wheels and horse and human bones in the red sea
Chariots were introduced into Egypt in the advent of the New Kingdom. This goes against Biblical chronology. I also don't see how random objects in a sea proves anything. Things do end up in the sea, you know.

Could you cite where you get this evidence, as well? I don't mistrust you, but I'd like to follow it up. :)

and the sour wells where the isrealites were told not to drink and the calf epigraphs and alter where the golden calf was placed.
oh and even the burnt top of the mountian that is next to the alter.
Not sure what any of that means. Maybe you could explain it or cite your sources?

oh and of course the paining in the tombs of Ram II of him chasing slaves out of egypt.
The 'tombs of Ramses II'??? There is one tomb of Ramses II KV7. There is no such scene in there - I have the complete archaeological report of the tomb.

I assume you mean one of his numerous childrens' tombs. Which one? Cite your evidence, and I'll consider it.

ohh and the papyrus documents that say that there was a sever drop in the number of slaves that the egyptians were in control of.
Which papyri documents?

And do you realise that the Egyptians did not keep 'slaves'? There is not one word before Late Egyptian that refers to slaves. Hem is the closest word and refers to a 'servant'. Hem-netcheru, servants of the gods (priests), were obviously not slaves.

The Egyptians did not keep slaves because they did not need to. The Egyptians had labour rotation, for example, which allowed them to utilise off-peak farmers from the Nile. There is absolutely no archaeological or philological evidence of an Egyptian slave before the Saite period.

oh and all this is dated to the same time.
Which time? I assume you mean early Ramesside time? Whilst Ramses is named in the Bible as the Pharaoh of the Exodus, you should probably consider these facts:

1. Ramses II did not die from drowning. He had a massive tooth infection and died a painful death,
2. None of Ramses II's childred died from drowing. They all died from natural causes, all of which explainable by modern science,
3. Ramesside chronology does not suit Biblical chronology for the Exodus,
4. There is no archaeological or philological data from Egypt which could even possibly place the Exodus in Ramesside times. Whilst I think that all possible philological data from Egypt which furthers the Exodus' historicity is easily dismissed, I think that if it happened, it happened much earlier.

so if you look you never know what u'll find.
I have spent hours and hours of my life looking into the Exodus. Don't patronise me. :)

oh and if you even think of coming back with well there is no evidence on mount sinia, it was not named mt sinai until centuries years after the exodus.
Why would I do that?

Look forward to reading another vague, incoherent mass of post.
 
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xeuyrawp

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Two relevant articles for all of us who are actually interested in evidence. Goerg is a Biblical historicitist, his argument is the standard. Note that it is not archaeological of nature:



Manfred Görg "Exodus" The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt. Ed. Donald B. Redford. Copyright © 2001, 2005 by Oxford University Press, Inc.. The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt: (e-reference edition). Oxford University Press. Macquarie University. 20 April 2007 http://www.oxford-ancientegypt.com/entry?entry=t176.e0229

Exodus
. The biblical traditions concerning the Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt are mostly preserved in the second book of the Hebrew scriptures. It recounts the memories of many events, from a time of slavery and oppression in Lower Egypt to the escape back to the homeland, after wandering for forty years in the Sinai Peninsula, under the guidance of a divinely appointed leader, Moses. Beginning with some introductory notes about the growth of the people of Israel in Egypt, the story leads to the appearance of the hero with an extraordinary past. He had been born a Hebrew, set adrift in a basket on the Nile in an effort to save him from death, and was found by an Egyptian princess who adopted him; Moses then grew up at the pharaonic court. As a young man, Moses killed an Egyptian overseer who was abusing Hebrew slaves and fled into the desert, where he learned of his own Hebrew heritage. There, he met his God, who revealed himself and chose Moses to lead Israel out of Egypt.

Moses then petitions the pharaoh, his stepbrother, to free the Israelites, but the request is denied. Moses warns the pharaoh about God's will on the matter, and soon a series of plagues descends on the Egyptians, with the last being the death of first-born sons. When the pharoah's son dies, he pretends to release the Israelites but sends his army after them. The army, is however, soon destroyed by a spectacular miracle, drowning in the Red Sea. Then for forty years, the wandering people are fed by divine provisions and at Mount Sinai, God gives Moses the Ten Commandments—the basic laws of Judaism. With that accomplished, the new generations lose their divinely inspired leader and finally enter the promised land of Canaan.

Traditional and fundamental exegeses seek interpretation of these texts primarily for their historical value. The canonical approach should not be confused with a treatment of the texts as literary works that have their own specific character and development. Biblical texts are written sources which may also be studied using the methodogical criteria of philological and linguistic research.

The Book of Exodus, as a text, has been the subject of many studies concerning its authorship. Longstanding critical analysis of the Hebrew grammar, vocabulary, and references has shown that there are the following: passages of Deuteronomistic and priestly origin from the Babylonian Exile and after the Exile, combined with some possibly pre-Exile material. The Exilic versions contain illustrations of the ten miraculous plagues and the spectacular crossing of the Red Sea. The central idea refers to the God of Israel dominating over foreign enemies and their gods, protecting his chosen people. The several stations of the escape route reflect an actual knowledge of the geography of the eastern Nile Delta, including names preserved in memory, such as Ramesses (Piramesse, the capital of the Ramessid kings), Pithom (Ex. 1.11), and possibly Pihachirot, which refers to the Delta area with the branches of the Nile. The tendency of these stories is to be seen as a view of the Babylonian Exile—so that the liberation from that Exile gains the character of a “second exodus,” thus fulfilling the prophecy of the prophet Isaiah. Therefore, most of the Exodus account has a relatively late origin. Some possible pre-Exilic allusions to Exodus events offer different information from the relatively exhaustive illustrations of the priestly sources. Generally, they seem to present some genuine perspective within the genre of their specific context. So the “Song of Miriam” (Ex. 15.21), a hymn that possibly dates from dynastic times, celebrates the dominating God of Israel in mythological terms that may have origins from that period in the kingdom of Judah. The variants of the formula of God's leading Israel from Egypt were created not earlier than in the period of the two Hebrew kingdoms—Judah and Israel. The pre-Exile stratum of the Exodus tradition seems to have been written with criticism for the kingdoms of Judah and Israel concerning their problematic relations with Egypt.

The so-called Israel Stela from the fifth year of the reign of Merenptah, together with some reliefs from the temple of Karnak do not give sufficient information about details of an Exodus, because they seem to relate only to people living in the Palestine area. However, numerous textual indications from Egypt refer to the movements of bedouins—the Shasou (Eg., �*ʒsw) in the southern Palestine region and in the Sinai Peninsula—and show some affinity to the biblical Exodus memories. Of great importance is the engraved illustration of the Shasou bedouins on their deportation to Egypt by Sety I, shown at the northern end of the great columned hall in the temple of Karnak. Furthermore, there were known Semitic laborers and workers in Egypt, as attested under the name “Aperu” (Eg., ʿprw). So the Exodus population may have consisted of Shasou and Aperu groups in not just one leave-taking but in several similar events. The memory of one or more such events may further be connected with persons of Semitic origin who entered upon a special career in Egypt. Thus representatives in politics, like the chancellor Beja or the court functionary Ramessesemperre under the Ramessids, have some features comparable to the biblical Moses, but it is not possible to identify them with the biblical leader and lawgiver. From the historical standpoint, there exists a serious possibility that several kinds of Exodus events happened both before and after the turn of the twelfth century bce, especially with flight and repulsions. The routes of such variants may be the so-called Way of Horus or an uncontrolled way, which crossed the swampy area at Egypt's eastern border, to the south of the Ballah Sea (Heb., yam suph? = Eg., pʒ ṯwf?) into the southern parts of the Sinai.

An Egyptian view of the Exodus seems to be preserved in a story told by the Greco-Egyptian historian Manetho and referred to by the Roman-Jewish historian Josephus. There, the Exodus appeared as a repulsion of lepers under the lead of a certain Osarsiph (later named Moses), who taught contrary to Egyptian customs. Behind this story, the Egyptian experience with the monotheistic Amarna religion has been proposed; this view has even been stressed as the background to the biblical Exodus. So the Egyptian version should reflect an antagonism toward monotheism. The view critical to monotheism may relate to Egypt's longstanding animosity toward peoples from Near Eastern countries, such as the victorious Hyksos dynasty that ruled Egypt from its Nile Delta capital. The historical conquests by foreigners in the Delta can be seen as the fundamental background for all varieties of the Exodus idea in Egypt and perhaps in Israel/Judah.

The liturgy of the Jewish Passover (Pesach) celebrates the victorious God, who saved his people. Possibly the Hebrew term paesaḥ derives from the Egyptian pʒ sḫw, “the slaying [by God],” for the victory over his enemies and the protection of his Chosen People.
 
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xeuyrawp

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Redford is far more interested in archaeology and would be considered on my side of the Biblical historicity debate:

Donald B. Redford "Moses" The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt. Ed. Donald B. Redford. Copyright © 2001, 2005 by Oxford University Press, Inc.. The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt: (e-reference edition). Oxford University Press. Macquarie University. 20 April 2007 http://www.oxford-ancientegypt.com/entry?entry=t176.e0477

Moses
(Heb., mōše(h); Gr. mouses), the Hebrew lawgiver who led the bene Yisra'el out of Egypt, and a reputed prince of Egypt. The name Moses has generally been derived from the Egyptian root msi (“to bear”), in the form of a hypocoristikon formed on the theophoric pattern “God X is born.” (The biblical derivation, from putative mašā(h), “to draw out,” is a false folk etymology based on the details of the story.) Such shortened forms involving the elision of the divine element occur with relative frequency in the onomasticon of the New Kingdom. An alternative theory would deny any Egyptian derivation at all, equating the name with Canaanite Mt > Muš, the serpent god, son of Ba'al.

According to the Pentateuch, which comprises all that survives of the primary tradition about the man, Moses is a Hebrew secreted at birth by his mother to escape a kind of pogrom, and he was discovered by a daughter of the king of Egypt. Brought up at the court, he acts as Yahweh's agent in coercing pharaoh, by the infliction of a series of plagues, to let the bene Yisra'el, enslaved Israelites, go free into the desert to worship their God. Thereafter he acts as law-giver to his nation at Mount Sinai and functions as their tribal leader as far as the border of Canaan. As presently constituted, the narrative sections of Exodus in which Moses figures are a pastiche of known folkloristic motifs, deftly woven together in a narrative of some literary effect: the community threatened by a tyrant, the hero cast away in infancy, the contest between magicians, the cosmic miracles, the “magicians' tricks” (inanimate-object-to-snake, parted-water, river-to-blood, darkness, “pillar-of-fire,” and so forth—all well known in the folklore of the eastern Mediterranean).

As far as is known, no figure comparable to the biblical Moses is to be found in surviving Egyptian sources, and attempts to identify him historically have proven arbitrary and unconvincing. It has been fashionable at times to find him in the Amenmesse of the outgoing nineteenth dynasty (late thirteenth century bce); in Ahmose, founder of the eighteenth dynasty (sixteenth century bce); or in one of the protagonists of the Amarna period (fourteenth century bce). The alleged link between “Mosaic monotheism” and the belief system of Akhenaten has proven impossible to sustain. Similarly, any connection between the biblical figure of Moses and the Shasu Yahweh of eighteenth dynasty toponym lists is yet to be demonstrated.

Whatever roots of the tradition extend back in time, the full-blown Mosaic account belongs to the latest stage in the development of the Exodus story. In earlier literature outside the Pentateuch, although the Exodus is a prominent element in the collective memory of the Levantine communities, Moses scarcely appears. In pursuing the evolution of the tradition, one cannot ignore the folklore later used by discutants in the Judeo-pagan polemic. By the fifth century bce, a narrative was in existence that linked an “exodus” from Egypt to a pious “clean-up” of Egyptian temples, culminating in an expulsion into the desert of a group of lepers. Once expelled, the lepers organized themselves under the leadership of a renegade priest (“Moses”) who thereupon conducted them to Palestine, where they founded Jerusalem. Although this piece of folklore appears to have taken shape as a midrash on the dim recollection of the Amarna period, one version firmly links it to the twenty-fourth dynasty and the reign of Bakenrenef (Bocchoris, 717–711 BCE), when a Kushite domination of the Nile Valley loomed. Curiously, in consonance with this travesty of chronology, biblical tradition (Num. 12.1) gives Moses a Kushite wife, and post-biblical commentary (Artapanus) brings him into association with the siege of Hermopolis, recalling Piya's siege of the same town around 719 BCE.

See also Biblical Tradition; and Exodus
 
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Topher15

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on the right spur of the red sea there is a 'bridge' wich on and around it are masses of skelital remains, including egyptian chariots that have be 'de-wheeled' along with this there is a mixture of human and horse bones this shows that there was a large presence of charioteers and soldiers in the middle of a mass of wter, at the same time there is no evidence of boats and no scientis can explain how the skelital remains came to be in the middle of the water mass.

in he north west corner of the nile delta there are remains of hebrew settlements, in these settlements there is evidence of mass mud brick production this fits perfectly as the herbrew once in egypt were made to make mud bricks.

As for chronology there is ALOT of debate for both egyptian and biblical dates, however if we use carbon 14 dating we are able to date things to appoxamatly the same time, which is what has been done when placing these artifacts around the same time.

i wish i hade a copy of my assignment with me lol cuz i was very objective and eveything ur saying i addressed.

oh umm the bible doesnt say that the pharaoh was engulphed. also the description giving matches the landscape of the proposed crossing site perfectly. it describes pi hahiroth. and the site where the bones and chariots were found matches the description.
the bible sates that the egyptians were scared and trapped this fits witht eh site as they had a cliff face to the north and south and the ocean to the east and the pharaohs army coming from the east.

the sour wells was when the isralites were thirsty as they hadn had anythign to drink and they came upon a series of 'wells' they went to drink but when they did the water was sour and they were unable to drink the water. these wells are still existant today and the water is still sour.

the split rock where moses stuck is still existant. the large rock stands alone at Jabal al Lawz which is east of the propsed crossing site it has been split down the centre and even more amazingly has been eroded by water however this rock is extreamly high above sea level and has no other evidnce of water behind it on infront and trailing down from it.

there is this account from a team that lead an expedition through egypt and into saudi arabia
http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html
 
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xeuyrawp

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Topher15 said:
on the right spur of the red sea there is a 'bridge' wich on and around it are masses of skelital remains, including egyptian chariots that have be 'de-wheeled' along with this there is a mixture of human and horse bones this shows that there was a large presence of charioteers and soldiers in the middle of a mass of wter, at the same time there is no evidence of boats and no scientis can explain how the skelital remains came to be in the middle of the water mass.
Lovely. Source?

If you don't want to argue providing sources:

There is an inscription in Egypt which says that Moses didn't exist. It says that a person named Topher15 will come on BOS and jabber on about nothing, and that they will be wrong.

in he north west corner of the nile delta there are remains of hebrew settlements, in these settlements there is evidence of mass mud brick production
Yes, such as Avaris. It's called the First, Second, and Third Intermediate Periods.

It's also called immigration. We know from Middle Kingdom sources (Illahun/Kahun) that there was an extensive relationship between Egypt and Syria-Palestine. In fact, at Kahun, we have a grave of a Syria-Palestinian official! It's amazing, yes, but we do have the same thing today... I suppose Chinatown is proof of a mass Chinese exodus from Sydney?!?!

These people weren't slaves. You cannot have a massive tomb like the one in Kahun yet be a slave.

this fits perfectly as the herbrew once in egypt were made to make mud bricks.
I assume you meant to say 'Hebrews':

Egyptians made mud bricks, they still do today. 90% of Egypt is and was made from mud bricks. There is ample evidence (Giza workman's village, Illahun, Itj-Tawy, East Thebes, Dier el Medina) of Egyptian mud brick factories. There is ample evidence (Nedjetempet, Djau, etc) of Egyptians doing this.

There is also ample evidence of people doing this all around the world. People still do it, and they are not slaves.

As for chronology there is ALOT of debate for both egyptian and biblical dates,
See Cohen's Canaanites, Chronologies, and Connections. High and low chronologies for exact dating isn't so much of a problem here as relative dating.

however if we use carbon 14 dating we are able to date things to appoxamatly the same time, which is what has been done when placing these artifacts around the same time.
What artefacts?! What are you going on about? Can you please be explicit in what you say?

i wish i hade a copy of my assignment with me lol cuz i was very objective and eveything ur saying i addressed.
Uhhuh?

oh umm the bible doesnt say that the pharaoh was engulphed.
Psalm 136:15:

'But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.'

Ie, Pharaoh's dead.

Exodus 14:23-31:

'23 The Egyptian Pharaoh pursued them, and all Pharaoh's horses and chariots and horsemen followed them into the sea. ... Not one of them survived. ... Israel saw the Egyptians lying dead on the shore.'

Ie, Pharaoh was with the Egyptians and they're all dead.

also the description giving matches the landscape of the proposed crossing site perfectly. it describes pi hahiroth. and the site where the bones and chariots were found matches the description.
Remember that Syria-Palestinians were living in Egypt, so wow? The Hebrew Bible can describe its own land perfectly! What a surprise?

the bible sates that the egyptians were scared and trapped this fits witht eh site as they had a cliff face to the north and south and the ocean to the east and the pharaohs army coming from the east.
Definitely sure evidence, there. You've got a cliff and the sea.

the sour wells was when the isralites were thirsty as they hadn had anythign to drink and they came upon a series of 'wells' they went to drink but when they did the water was sour and they were unable to drink the water. these wells are still existant today and the water is still sour.
What the hell is 'sour' water? And wow, again, the Hebrew Bible can describe its own land perfectly.

the split rock where moses stuck is still existant. the large rock stands alone at Jabal al Lawz which is east of the propsed crossing site it has been split down the centre and even more amazingly has been eroded by water however this rock is extreamly high above sea level and has no other evidnce of water behind it on infront and trailing down from it.
Again, the Hebrew Bible can describe its own land. Then again, people are still arguing over the place where Jesus was crucified... So many geographic features to chose from...

Btw, nice copying and pasting from online. Change the font back to normal after you copy something from online. :p

there is this account from a team that lead an expedition through egypt and into saudi arabia
http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html
Who cares? That website site hasn't got one piece of archaeological evidence.

Just so we're certain: I think that there is no archaeological evidence of the Exodus. I don't need to prove anything because my view is based on the lack of evidence.

You need to:
1. Tell us which exact (eg, KV7) tomb of Ramses II allegedly has a scene of Ramses kicking the Israelites out,
2. give us an exact reliable source (eg, a book, article, or a .edu website) for the alleged chariot wheels, corpses (lol at 4000 year old corpses surviving underwater!), and horses found in the Red Sea,
3. tell us which exact papyri documents (they're all named, eg pChester Beaty I) allegedly tell of slave numbers dropping,
4. explain how Hebrew settlements, with their mudbrick, infers that these people were slaves in Egypt, when they were clearly important officials.


Thanks. :)
 

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