Man sentenced to death in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity (2 Viewers)

[Serius]

meh, when in Rome iam not likely to be a christian am i? because you know i have no love of lions it doesnt mean i think the law is fair, it means there is no possible way i could fight the might of a city and win, so submitting is the best way to live.

So in afganistan although i disagree with their laws, iam not likely to advertise my religion

just like in taiwan, even if i thought drugs were good mkaay[which i dont] and i wanted everyone to just chill out and take some drugs, i still wouldnt try and smuggle them because i dont want to die.

Life is pretty important to me so i will always disagree on any law thinking that execution is a good idea, murdering a murderer is not the way.

Culture is a load of shit, in todays age of globalisation we should be seeing a trend towards a uniform set of ethics, Afganistan is fucked anyways, infact most Islamic countries are fucked , thats why the yhave BS laws. I dont think the reason they are fucked has much to do with the fact that they are Islamic, because the koran doesnt exactly say "kill all foreigners" but historically other religions have been looked down upon, the best case behing the moghul empire, where non-muslims were taxed heavily.

live and let live, if people want to beleive in the boogieman i dont really car, aslong as they live their lives normally and dont argue like an illogical git

 

[davin]

the difference between this and, say, child porn laws or anything like that is he's being killed for his belief, not for any act or possession of anything like that. purely for what he thinks

 

[bikini kill]

im probably gonna be posting so irrelevantly
cos i just skimmed this topic
all i have to say is (and when i say all i have to say, you expect a short statement. so do i .. but i have this problem where i never shutup lol)

so yeah 'all i have to say is'
1. we can't really judge another culture regardless of what we are judging it against, whether it be our western background or whatever else
2. we can point out its flaws

and christianity has alot of flaws
as does islam
and those who preach otherwise for either religion are arrogant and obviously blind or just stupid
but the way i see it
the interpretation of islam is the key issue, some people interpret it to the extreme where they thing mohammed wants them 2 kill every1 that converts or believes in different shit or whatever
and some people don't
islamic people are just people
that have good and bad sides like we all do
a problem with afghanistan is A WESTERN ONE. it was western people (american government and intervention) that caused this problem and western people that are dissatisfied with it

afghanistan used to be much more advanced and ahead of australia, fashionwise, technology wise. EVERYTHING.
then the taliban came in and all this
but so did america
im not saying this in proper order or whatever, but order doesn't matter -
facts do
and america at some point bombed the shit out of afghanistan looking 4 osama bin laden and trying 2put the taliban out of power
hahahahaha, america tries alot of things
to me, the government of america is PATHETIC
they ruined afghanistan. they encouraged (conciously or not) rather than prevented civil war in afghanistan which ruined the country
afghanistani women were allowed to wear skirts and show their legs and everything prior to the intervention and the taliban and all that shit
now they walk around covered from head to toe. if i was in afghanistan i would want to cover from head to toe cos some of those men i see on documentaries of present day afghanistan look perverted
and as if u wouldn't be horny when ur women are covered head to toe and forced 2 walk in the heat like animals . i think thats a fuck up of human rights

note how my response is not making sense lol and is in no order
basically my opinion is that its americas fault and the interpreters of islams fault regarding the situation in afghanistan
if mohammed wanted all the women 2 dress like demons in long cloaks, so be it
i doubt he did though
if some muslim man that had power in afghanistan decided thats what mohammed wanted because of misinterpretation either deliberatley or not of the Koran, thats a different story

btw, eat me or argue with me or whatever
like i dont care cause again its my opinion of whats true or not
science has proven
and history has proven stuff about mohammed and islams origins
and this is not a western opinion because the people that made it are old scholars of islam and other middle eastern countries although ppl from western cultures contributed 2 this theory 2. ANYWAYS (no offense to any islamic people, but this isn't my opinion although it makes sense and i support it)
what they concluded about mohammed was that he was a mentally ill man
that was perverted and nonsensical. he forced people to believe in his 'religion' which at the time was just beginning
and people voluntarily covered their female children so he wouldn't see their beauty and he wouldn't want to have sex with them. that got incorporated in the religion when mohammed apparently 'approved' of this decision so it wouldn't seem as if his actions instigated it.


anyway this old song just came on the radio
u know ..
'if u need me show me that u love me
im feeling u yeah i want u
theres just one thing that u should doooo
give us some kind of sign girlllll oh my baby'
lmao lame irrelevant but im amused easily

sorry about the essay
but thats all i have to say about that
lol

 

[ogmzergrush]

im probably gonna be posting so irrelevantly
cos i just skimmed this topic
all i have to say is (and when i say all i have to say, you expect a short statement. so do i .. but i have this problem where i never shutup lol)

so yeah 'all i have to say is'
1. we can't really judge another culture regardless of what we are judging it against, whether it be our western background or whatever else
2. we can point out its flaws

and christianity has alot of flaws
as does islam
and those who preach otherwise for either religion are arrogant and obviously blind or just stupid
but the way i see it
the interpretation of islam is the key issue, some people interpret it to the extreme where they thing mohammed wants them 2 kill every1 that converts or believes in different shit or whatever
and some people don't
islamic people are just people
that have good and bad sides like we all do
a problem with afghanistan is A WESTERN ONE. it was western people (american government and intervention) that caused this problem and western people that are dissatisfied with it

afghanistan used to be much more advanced and ahead of australia, fashionwise, technology wise. EVERYTHING.
then the taliban came in and all this
but so did america
im not saying this in proper order or whatever, but order doesn't matter -
facts do
and america at some point bombed the shit out of afghanistan looking 4 osama bin laden and trying 2put the taliban out of power
hahahahaha, america tries alot of things
to me, the government of america is PATHETIC
they ruined afghanistan. they encouraged (conciously or not) rather than prevented civil war in afghanistan which ruined the country
afghanistani women were allowed to wear skirts and show their legs and everything prior to the intervention and the taliban and all that shit
now they walk around covered from head to toe. if i was in afghanistan i would want to cover from head to toe cos some of those men i see on documentaries of present day afghanistan look perverted
and as if u wouldn't be horny when ur women are covered head to toe and forced 2 walk in the heat like animals . i think thats a fuck up of human rights

note how my response is not making sense lol and is in no order
basically my opinion is that its americas fault and the interpreters of islams fault regarding the situation in afghanistan
if mohammed wanted all the women 2 dress like demons in long cloaks, so be it
i doubt he did though
if some muslim man that had power in afghanistan decided thats what mohammed wanted because of misinterpretation either deliberatley or not of the Koran, thats a different story

btw, eat me or argue with me or whatever
like i dont care cause again its my opinion of whats true or not
science has proven
and history has proven stuff about mohammed and islams origins
and this is not a western opinion because the people that made it are old scholars of islam and other middle eastern countries although ppl from western cultures contributed 2 this theory 2. ANYWAYS (no offense to any islamic people, but this isn't my opinion although it makes sense and i support it)
what they concluded about mohammed was that he was a mentally ill man
that was perverted and nonsensical. he forced people to believe in his 'religion' which at the time was just beginning
and people voluntarily covered their female children so he wouldn't see their beauty and he wouldn't want to have sex with them. that got incorporated in the religion when mohammed apparently 'approved' of this decision so it wouldn't seem as if his actions instigated it.


anyway this old song just came on the radio
u know ..
'if u need me show me that u love me
im feeling u yeah i want u
theres just one thing that u should doooo
give us some kind of sign girlllll oh my baby'
lmao lame irrelevant but im amused easily

sorry about the essay
but thats all i have to say about that
lol

I was just about to make a duplicate comment and by doing so highlight the fact that this didn't need to be posted twice, but then I realised that we're dealing with two equally ridiculous, overdone threads, so how could anyone be expected to choose between the two?

 

[ihavenothing]

You have to look past the culture and religion and see that this man is being killed for a ridiculous reason, only difference in a western country is that it can be protested legitimately and everybody has the right to change laws in parliament and allow other religions to be practiced.

 

[ogmzergrush]

In what circumstances should someone be culpable for converting to a religion of their choice?

Well he's clearly pissing Allah off,so I guess he deserves it.

There is no *full story* to know, because no matter what the story is, he can have what ever religion he wants.

I think tolerance and preaching about diversity is only applicable if you're telling people to accept muslims, it doesn't go both ways.

That is.. Unless muslims feel that they must legislate to keep people within their religion because its so shitty that people would otherwise leave (should there be no punishment for leaving).

Why can't you be more tolerant? It's not the religion's fault, and besides, you're an infidel, you wouldn't understand anyway.

Like.. America's invasion of Iraq for instance?

That's different, americans aren't muslims, they're the ones you've got to fuck off and mind your own business about so as not to start any jihads.

In summary, I'm really sick of hypocrites. What's with you people? See the diversity thread for more examples, if you want to preach about "diversity" and "tolerance", then it goes every way, and muslims don't have the fucking monopoly.

 

[erawamai]

I think tolerance and preaching about diversity is only applicable if you're telling people to accept muslims, it doesn't go both ways.

The inability of some islamic people too look past thier singluar view on life doesn't encourage people to preach tolerence and diversity if the picture of tolerence and diversity includes islamic people. It's not hard to feel that the common perception in the community is that diversity and tolerence includes everyone except islamic people who are hell bent on one narrow vision.

Common sense suggests that people are quite happy to be tolerent and embrace other cultures when the other cultures happen to do the same back.

Probably the worst thing are those who are critical of christianity but then fail to apply the same rules to other cultures. Especially when members of the said culture have no respect for other cultures.

People are more likely to invoke arguments of cultural reletivism when the other culturla practices don't hurt anyone and the people who belong to that culture are not confrontingly against any other cultures.

 

[sam04u]

Why are there so many idiots....?

Okay... where to begin;

Firstly, it is not illegal to convert in afghanistan; Period!
Since firstly... How would anyone know what religion you are? Its between you and you're god!!
He must have advocated it; meaning he offended muslims; probably by stating there religion is wrong (or telling people not to read the koran, or to dress different) which was in violation of a Law. In a mainly islamic country the old un-ammended law could be capital punishment. (however none of us are afghanis so it isn't really our concern). If people in AFGHANISTAN thought it was unjust they would have stopped it. (The guy probably has family too; if they cared they would have stopped them).

Secondly, Bikini infidel;
There is so no such evidence of this; in the Hadith (Life of Muhammad PBUH) It states that he was a good man. The idea that he was perverted is rude; incredibly rude, stupid and without proof. I could more accurately say "Because of the inferences i have made about your post", "You are perverted, Have sex on your mind constantly; and have insecurity issues about your own body".

Science has proven? What science? You imbecilic, stupid.... Mentally limited "Media-Whore"!!

Well he's clearly pissing Allah off, so I guess he deserves it.

:rofl: I don't think he deserves it....

PS;
Serius when did you get more intelligent?

To each his own!

 

[davin]

sam04u, thats not the law in afghanistan. the law as i've read it described for this is that you are allowed freedom of religion, and only muslims are subject to islamic law.
all this guy did was convert from islam to christianity. they've said that he'll not get punished if he says he's not really a christian, but he's refused to do so. in effect, isn't being of another religion saying you believe a given religion is wrong?

 

[Serius]

Christianity is supposed to be a religion of the book, so what i would like to see[although its not going to happen] is for some Islamic people in power to condem this

cause islamic beleives are like this

Islam is about god, jesus, muhammed etc and Christianity is like a subset of islam so that someone[in islamic beleifs] is a muslim, but they are also a christian but u can be a straight muslim aswell.

so why would thia country presecute someone who just beleives a more specific version of islamic beleifs?[from the perspective of an islamic country] its wrong however you look at it

p.s i would like to think ive always been inteligent but the internet is for fun, and so i like to take on points of view that sometimes incites others if you are smart you will be able to tell when iam being serious[which coincidently is what Serius means, except its in indonesian]

 

[samk00]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4841812.stm

 

[Sweets]

Since under Afghan Islamic Law you cannot be put to death for apostasy if you are deemed insane, it may be worthwhile to prove Abdul Rahman insane.

The best way of doing this would be to argue that you’d have to be insane to switch religions in a country that enforces the death penalty for apostasy. Since Abdul Rahman has done precisely what everyone thinks to be an illogical thing, it must mean that he *is* crazy. As such, he cannot be put to death for apostasy. Put it another way: since he has not retracted in the face of death, it must mean he’s retarded. Therefore, he cannot be killed, and should be freed immediately
Given the absurd current state of Islamic Law, this defense might actually work.

And now i'll be a good Western Liberal

In the Quran it says “To you your religion to me mine.” “their is no compulsion in religion let the truth stand clear from error.” i don’t know if that’s my western liberal viewpoint speaking but i intepret this to mean sanctity of belief,religious pluralism and acceptance, esp to the much touted “people of the book.”

The “judge” here must also be seen to reflect a militaristic, tribal
worldview of an unbalanced region that until recently has been torn by
tribal warfare, illiteracy and poverty ( a world that is hardly a conduit
for grand intellectual progress and in itself a kind of human rights
violation.)

“Apostasy” is incompatible with religion- if religion depends on
faith and will to impose it via force would make it meaningless. the islamic
justification for “apostasy” depends on a harking back to a medieval historical context where state was religion and apostasy was a kind of treason (a political rather than religious statement) this is clearly untenable in the modern world and (even islamically) with the supremacy of the individual/rights/conscience.

 

[xeuyrawp]

People are more likely to invoke arguments of cultural reletivism when the other culturla practices don't hurt anyone and the people who belong to that culture are not confrontingly against any other cultures.

Yes but since when does cultural relativism (and, I think you mean more precisely metaethical cultural relativism, not just cultural relativism) have anything to do with 'hurting other people'?

If x culture tortures and then kills people for whatever reason, no matter how trivial we see it as, it is valid under metaethical cultural relativism.

 

[veterandoggy]

so why would thia country presecute someone who just beleives a more specific version of islamic beleifs?[from the perspective of an islamic country] its wrong however you look at it

well, it isnt exactly like that. islam was sent down because christianity became too corrupted, so although christianity was the correct religion at a time, we believe that it isnt the right religion at the moment.

so in effect, it isnt a more specific version of islamic beliefs, its a more distorted version.

this also answers the claims that islam was plagiarised from the Bible and Torah. it will obviously have something that is similar because not all of those two books have been changed, only enough to make it corrupted enough for a new religion to be sent down.

 

[sam04u]

How is the religion corrupted?
The only reason islam was made was because people misunderstood "allahs" leniency; You could commit a horrendous crime. Then confess (meaning acknowledge it was a sin) and be forgiven. Therefore it erased alot of guilt; So now islam exists; and although it advocates "allah is merciful" there are limits.

You cant claim a corruption in any of allah's books; just his people.

And too Sweets; don't talk of what you dont know.... It is their culture; they dont argue with your government for making it legal to sleep with any guy you want to (as long as you are of legal age); or for your country to allow you to dress anyways you like (pretty much reveal everything);

To Islam this is an injustice....
The idea of a modern world is your idea; His family said he was insane; (a large family). Also they are under international pressure; i think he will be released... either way you need to look at it from their perspective.

Think about why australia has harsh quarantining for fruit flies? You cant bring a peace of wood or fruit; without it undergoing quarantine.
Is this unfair? They choose what goes in their country... however i don't agree.. the majority of them doo... so its their business not ours... He shouldn't be punished in my opinion... but neither should those aussie guys in indonesia... but its not upto us... its their country...

Also we shouldnt be judging islam; just that countries moral believes.
Afghanistan is NOT an image of islam; its an image of "corruption", "abuse" and "control by a criminal peoples army (some members of taliban)".

In modern society islamic people function peacefully; they don't bother people... they could be the lady sitting next to you on the bus with the hijab; thinking about how they're going to make ends meet.

They could be a kid riding his bike to the corner shop to buy bread for dinner.

They could be the guy running your local Fish & Chip shop; (perfect example that lebanese muslim people have integrated into australia... almost 3/4 Fish and Chip shops i've seen were run by lebanese people :rofl: )

 

[ogmzergrush]

And too Sweets; don't talk of what you dont know.... It is their culture; they dont argue with your government for making it legal to sleep with any guy you want to (as long as you are of legal age); or for your country to allow you to dress anyways you like (pretty much reveal everything);

Incorrect parallel, the problem here is a guy wanting to do his own thing (not be a muslim) in THEIR country. A correct parallel would be muslims here dressing as they wanted (doing their own thing), not people here dressing as dictated by them. Hey what do you know, I think that happens already :O

[ edit ]
Well, to be specific, a moderately correct parallel to the actual problem, rather than the action causing it, would be us putting people to death for wanting to wear their religious gear, but hopefully you get the idea.
[/ edit ]

And no, to clarify, I don't mind any of this at all, and I realise that this is indicative of what happens when spastics run countries, not any inherent problem with Islam. I guess what it boils down to is that I'm just sick of fuss over what should be nothing. Religion should be something you wear, a place you go on the weekend, the way you go about shit in your daily life, whatever, not a reason to kill people over, not something to start arguments about, not something to demand special treatment over, and not something to be a dick about in general. Regardless of denomination, these people give me the shits.

 

[erawamai]

Yes but since when does cultural relativism have anything to do with 'hurting other people'?

Individuals bend the rules and prefer to invoke it when the other culture isn't threatening. I was more trying to point out the reality rather than pedantically noting that it is hypocritical of people when they pick and choose where and when to apply it.

But really individuals have a right to apply it in various strengths and weaknesses to whatever cases they feel. The concept of cultural relativism isn't black and white and individuals are usually clever enough to know that it is unfairly arbitrary to apply it in an on/off black/white way.

Pretty much we repsect whatever we think is good.

If x culture tortures and then kills people for whatever reason, no matter how trivial we see it as, it is valid under metaethical cultural relativism.

People choose not to apply cultural relativism to every case. Maybe they should? But to tell people that they should apply cultural relativism to every case will result in people telling you to get lost. Cultural reletivism isnt black and white in reality and people choose to apply it on a sliding scale. Invoked in the case of Chinese cooking and thai cultural dancing and customs but not invoked in the case of islamic cultural myopia.

 

[davin]

yeah, i think the proper comparison, sam04u, was if the western world was executing people just because they were Muslim, which isn't happening.

again, he's being executed for an IDEA, not for an action

 

[davin]

no, they do want selective treatment though...tolerance of them. Remember the cartoons? during that everyone else was to respect their faith, and those calls were coming from the SAME islamic world that doesn't see anything wrong with putting someone to death because of what that person believes religiously

 

[stainmepink]

see!??!?!?!? religion causes trouble. so much for your JESUS hahahaha