Marks vs Ranks (1 Viewer)

[Skriker]

Ok so I don't get the deal why people say its all about ranks and raw marks mean nothing, (except that they determine your rank) But why is it all about ranks? I mean what if there is a person coming first and gets 60% and theres a person coming like 3/50 who gets like 50% like how does the scaling work?? surely they can't get an Atar above 90+ even though they are ranked so high. If people don't care about the raw mark, does the person who's coming first gets scaled up to 90 or something?? I don't get it :/

can someone please explain to me why are ranks more significant than your raw mark?

Thanks

 

[mark H]

can someone please explain to me why are ranks more significant than your raw mark? Thanks

Due to moderation. Here this explains it well:

http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/hsc-results/moderation.html

http://www.duxcollege.com.au/hsc-moderation-process-i-55.html

 

[cem]

Ok so I don't get the deal why people say its all about ranks and raw marks mean nothing, (except that they determine your rank) But why is it all about ranks? I mean what if there is a person coming first and gets 60% and theres a person coming like 3/50 who gets like 50% like how does the scaling work?? surely they can't get an Atar above 90+ even though they are ranked so high. If people don't care about the raw mark, does the person who's coming first gets scaled up to 90 or something?? I don't get it :/

can someone please explain to me why are ranks more significant than your raw mark?

Thanks

At some schools the assessment tasks might be very easy or marked very easily and then another school might set really hard tasks and mark really hard so a raw mark of 60 can be fairly meaningless as it could be a very hard marking school in which case that 60 might have been given 80 at another school.

As the only task that everyone does that is marked to the same standard the raw school marks are moderated to the exam marks.

e.g. School 1 marks really hard and sends in a set of marks like 60, 55 and 50 while School 2 which marks more easily sends in 80, 75 and 70. Is School 2 better than School 1? We really don't know but...
when the only task that they all did is marked both School 1 and School 2 ended up with marks of 70, 65 and 60 so what do the students get - 70, 65 and 60 - one school is moderated upwards and one downwards.

NB This is a simplistic explanation of a part of the moderation itself is necessary.

Now for the reason why ranks are really important.

At School 1 Student A was sent in with 60 and 1st place so on the moderation process their school assessment mark will be 70. What their other mark will be will be determined by their own exam - so they got 60 for their exam mark - their final mark is 65 (the average of their moderated assessment mark and their own exam mark). Note that their internal mark is the top exam mark for their class - because that is the importance of ranks - the top ranked student (unless tied or something totally unusual) will get the top exam mark as their internal mark. Everyone keeps their own exam mark, of course.

 

[Skriker]

At some schools the assessment tasks might be very easy or marked very easily and then another school might set really hard tasks and mark really hard so a raw mark of 60 can be fairly meaningless as it could be a very hard marking school in which case that 60 might have been given 80 at another school.

As the only task that everyone does that is marked to the same standard the raw school marks are moderated to the exam marks.

e.g. School 1 marks really hard and sends in a set of marks like 60, 55 and 50 while School 2 which marks more easily sends in 80, 75 and 70. Is School 2 better than School 1? We really don't know but...
when the only task that they all did is marked both School 1 and School 2 ended up with marks of 70, 65 and 60 so what do the students get - 70, 65 and 60 - one school is moderated upwards and one downwards.

NB This is a simplistic explanation of a part of the moderation itself is necessary.

Now for the reason why ranks are really important.

At School 1 Student A was sent in with 60 and 1st place so on the moderation process their school assessment mark will be 70. What their other mark will be will be detehrmined by their own exam - so they got 60 for their exam mark - their final mark is 65 (the average of their moderated assessment mark and their own exam mark). Note that their internal mark is the top exam mark for their class - because that is the importance of ranks - the top ranked student (unless tied or something totally unusual) will get the top exam mark as their internal mark. Everyone keeps their own exam mark, of course.

So basically the better you do in your externals the higher your marks get moderated?? f performed well against the other schools?

 

[joezia]

At some schools the assessment tasks might be very easy or marked very easily and then another school might set really hard tasks and mark really hard so a raw mark of 60 can be fairly meaningless as it could be a very hard marking school in which case that 60 might have been given 80 at another school.

As the only task that everyone does that is marked to the same standard the raw school marks are moderated to the exam marks.

e.g. School 1 marks really hard and sends in a set of marks like 60, 55 and 50 while School 2 which marks more easily sends in 80, 75 and 70. Is School 2 better than School 1? We really don't know but...
when the only task that they all did is marked both School 1 and School 2 ended up with marks of 70, 65 and 60 so what do the students get - 70, 65 and 60 - one school is moderated upwards and one downwards.

NB This is a simplistic explanation of a part of the moderation itself is necessary.

Now for the reason why ranks are really important.

At School 1 Student A was sent in with 60 and 1st place so on the moderation process their school assessment mark will be 70. What their other mark will be will be determined by their own exam - so they got 60 for their exam mark - their final mark is 65 (the average of their moderated assessment mark and their own exam mark). Note that their internal mark is the top exam mark for their class - because that is the importance of ranks - the top ranked student (unless tied or something totally unusual) will get the top exam mark as their internal mark. Everyone keeps their own exam mark, of course.

What if Student A got 90 internally and is 1st in school rank, and Student B got 85 but is 2nd in school rank. Student A scored a 60 on the external exam and came 2nd and Student B got 90 and came 1st externally. Now because of the 5 mark difference internally between these students, is Student A gonna recieve that 90 scored by Student B in the external exam despite Student A scoring a 60, and does this mean Student B will get a 60 as his/her school assesment mark? Even though Student B scored 90 which is 30 raw marks above 2nd, but is 2nd in course due to 5 marks?

 

[jamesfirst]

What if you're ranked about 30th out of 64 students in English but totally smash the external? What are the chances of getting a band 6 ?

 

[Riproot]

Yeah, what is the chance of getting a band 6 in standard if you're 6th and you demolish the external and get 94/100 and the guy ranked 1st gets 94/100 and the guy ranked 8th gets 91/100 and everyone else in the top 10 gets around 80?

 

[tambam]

Wow, so much confusion about scaling...
So here is a very simple foolproof way of understanding it (tell me if it needs clarifying)
1. Remember your final hsc mark is made up of 50% your external exam, this is how you go in the hsc exam which EVERYONE in the state does, marked with exact same guidelines. This mark is purely dependent on your performance in the single exam and will not change.
2. The other half of your hsc mark for each subject is made up of your internal mark, which is moderated. This is how moderation works:
a) Everyone in a school does assessments and are ranked. The ranks are sent to BoardOfStudies, along with marks, so that they can gage the 'gaps' between students.
b) Everyone in the school then goes and does the extternal hsc exam. The pperformance of all the students in a school are what determines how the marks are moderated.
- For example, the average mark in internal assessments is 70, but then in the hsc exam, the average mark for that sschool is 80. The internal marks are then moderated so that 80 is the new average, and everyyone's marks woulld be pushhed up accorrdingly. (Note this works both ways, ie if a sschool performs poorlly externally.)
- The top internall ranked person will get the school's top extternal mark (eeven if they did not do the best in externals), last internal ranked pperson gets the worst hsc mark. Everyyone elses marks are somewhere in between, higher rank means higher mark.

So since the main question seems to be, what happens if I beat someone in externals but did worse than them internally! Their internal mark will always be higher tha you,, bt your external mark will be better. Each make up 50% so it comes down to how much you beaat each other in both...

(Sorry for the typos, I'm using a touchscreen)

 

[joezia]

Wow, so much confusion about scaling...
So here is a very simple foolproof way of understanding it (tell me if it needs clarifying)
1. Remember your final hsc mark is made up of 50% your external exam, this is how you go in the hsc exam which EVERYONE in the state does, marked with exact same guidelines. This mark is purely dependent on your performance in the single exam and will not change.
2. The other half of your hsc mark for each subject is made up of your internal mark, which is moderated. This is how moderation works:
a) Everyone in a school does assessments and are ranked. The ranks are sent to BoardOfStudies, along with marks, so that they can gage the 'gaps' between students.
b) Everyone in the school then goes and does the extternal hsc exam. The pperformance of all the students in a school are what determines how the marks are moderated.
- For example, the average mark in internal assessments is 70, but then in the hsc exam, the average mark for that sschool is 80. The internal marks are then moderated so that 80 is the new average, and everyyone's marks woulld be pushhed up accorrdingly. (Note this works both ways, ie if a sschool performs poorlly externally.)
- The top internall ranked person will get the school's top extternal mark (eeven if they did not do the best in externals), last internal ranked pperson gets the worst hsc mark. Everyyone elses marks are somewhere in between, higher rank means higher mark.

So since the main question seems to be, what happens if I beat someone in externals but did worse than them internally! Their internal mark will always be higher tha you,, bt your external mark will be better. Each make up 50% so it comes down to how much you beaat each other in both...

(Sorry for the typos, I'm using a touchscreen)

Ohhhh that makes sense, thanks , but if im 2nd internally and i beat the person the 1st internally, do i get at least half my mark as the internal mark? Or do i just get the person that cames 2nd whole mark as my assesment

 

[cem]

Ohhhh that makes sense, thanks , but if im 2nd internally and i beat the person the 1st internally, do i get at least half my mark as the internal mark? Or do i just get the person that cames 2nd whole mark as my assesment

You get TWO marks

Your own external mark and a moderated internal mark based on your rank and the gaps between those ranked around you.


These two marks are then averaged to give you your final HSC marks.

The person who came first will get the mark you got on the exam as their internal mark - as you came first on the exam that sets the top mark. You keep it as your external mark.

If you were one mark behind them in the internals then you would be one mark behind still and the two marks would be averaged. If you were 20 marks behind then you would be about 14 marks behing (due to aligning not moderating - aligning is the process of reporting the raw exam marks into the bands) and then your final mark would be the average of these two.

 

[tambam]

Ohhhh that makes sense, thanks , but if im 2nd internally and i beat the person the 1st internally, do i get at least half my mark as the internal mark? Or do i just get the person that cames 2nd whole mark as my assesment

No, only the first ranked person is definitely guaranteed the highest hsc mark as their mark (that's why for smarter people at lower ranked schools, its good to be first at everything, because then a poor performance from everryone else will not 'drag down' their mark.)


Um, to answer your question I'll create a hypothetical situation.
Person A is ranked 1st in school with a mark of 90, and Person B is rankeedd 2nd with a mark of say, 88 (note, very close)
But in the hsc external, Person B gets 93, and somehow Person A does not do very well and gets 83.
Person A will get 93 as their internal mark, but obviously it would be totally unfair if perso B gets 88 as their internal mark. Bos will look at the 'diffeerence' between the internal marks, and then Person B will get maybe a mark of 90.
So overall Person B will have a better hsc mark than Person A.
Does that answer your question???

 

[cem]

What if Student A got 90 internally and is 1st in school rank, and Student B got 85 but is 2nd in school rank. Student A scored a 60 on the external exam and came 2nd and Student B got 90 and came 1st externally. Now because of the 5 mark difference internally between these students, is Student A gonna recieve that 90 scored by Student B in the external exam despite Student A scoring a 60, and does this mean Student B will get a 60 as his/her school assesment mark? Even though Student B scored 90 which is 30 raw marks above 2nd, but is 2nd in course due to 5 marks?

Student A gets 90 as their internal mark and 60 as their exam mark - averaged = 75.
Student B gets 85 or so as their internal mark and 90 as their exam mark - averaged = 88

Why - because the relative gaps are also maintained and Student B was only 5 marks behind.

I have assumed that there are not only two in the class, because if there is then other calculations might come into play e.g. A's 60 treated as an outlier and they both get 85. Outliers are where students results fit outside the expectations based on the school's results. In this case Student B shouldn't be penalised because of Student A's collapse so they would take Student A's marks out of Student B's calculations - so they wouldn't get 60 as their internal mark.

 

[_deloso]

Student A gets 90 as their internal mark and 60 as their exam mark - averaged = 75.
Student B gets 85 or so as their internal mark and 90 as their exam mark - averaged = 88

Why - because the relative gaps are also maintained and Student B was only 5 marks behind.

I have assumed that there are not only two in the class, because if there is then other calculations might come into play e.g. A's 60 treated as an outlier and they both get 85. Outliers are where students results fit outside the expectations based on the school's results. In this case Student B shouldn't be penalised because of Student A's collapse so they would take Student A's marks out of Student B's calculations - so they wouldn't get 60 as their internal mark.

how will the student who comes 2nd and 3rd be affected during moderation? cos I get how rank 1 will not get dragged down internally but will rank 2 and 3 get dragged down if their class performance in hsc is poor but rank 1 2 and 3 do well externally.

 

[Shadowdude]

Why do people keep asking the same questions? Seriously. Is it not that hard to scroll down and look for the other 721952783 times we've explained the process?

 

[Shadowdude]

What if you're ranked about 30th out of 64 students in English but totally smash the external? What are the chances of getting a band 6 ?

Depends on school rank and gaps between ranks.

 

[tambam]

why do people keep asking the same questions? Seriously. Is it not that hard to scroll down and look for the other 721952783 times we've explained the process?

this

 

[cem]

how will the student who comes 2nd and 3rd be affected during moderation? cos I get how rank 1 will not get dragged down internally but will rank 2 and 3 get dragged down if their class performance in hsc is poor but rank 1 2 and 3 do well externally.

When the school sends in the marks (they send in marks mind you not ranks) they have a list of the marks to determine the gaps.

Now the kids to the exam and generate another set of marks.

The BOS then allocates the top exam mark as the top internal mark and the bottom external mark as the bottom internal mark.

They then use the mean of the exam mark to be the mean of the internal marks as well and the total exam marks will equal the total internal marks (give or take a mark).

So say the school had 800 marks between 12 students in the exam then there will be 800 marks beween those 12 students for their internal marks. The only way anyone is 'pulled down' is if the school has been over marking as otherwise it is the exam that determines the marks in total and range.

If the top student is sent in with 90 but the top mark in the exam is 60 then the top assessment mark willl be 60 and everyone will come down - but that would be because of poor marking and teaching and not by 'pulling down'.

The only person who can pull you down is yourself - if you do badly on the exam then you will do badly on the exam and have fewer marks available for the cohort to share - so say 2nd and 3rd were sent if with 88 and 86 while top has 90 but in the exam 1st get 95 - great for 1st but both 2nd and 3rd fall back to the rest of the class at say 68 and 65 then they will have no one to blame but themselves for simply not getting enough marks and the relative gap may have to widen due to fewer than expected marks so the gap for the internal might open up to 90 and 85 rather than the more expected 93 and 91 - had they performed as well as the school's results would indicate. I am assuming that the 2nd and 3rd exam marks are also those of the students who were 2nd and 3rd by the school but if they do badly but others do well then they will only pull themselves down e.g. they still get the 68 and 65 but 8th from school gets 85 and 12th from school gets 81 then the 2nd and 3rd won't be so badly affected as the total marks will be higher.

I think you would be better off studying for the actual exams and control what you can - your results - rather than worrying about this issue over which you don't have all that much control. I would also encourage you to work with your cohort to bring up the total marks for your cohort as from now on it is your school trying to get as many marks as possible for the good of you all.