K
katie_tully
Guest
No...I wanna be the intern.
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Merlin... again (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter 400miles
- Start date
K
katie_tully
Guest
I can and I just did.
K
katie_tully
Guest
Fantastic game plan. I'll go on to design hand bags and set out for an ever expanding back side.
K
katie_tully
Guest
Well, I was actually leaning more towards;
"Hey remember that git who taped his mouth shut on Big Brother?"
"No?"
"Oh..me either"
"Hey remember that git who taped his mouth shut on Big Brother?"
"No?"
"Oh..me either"
crazyhomo
under pressure
what's that? avoiding actually making any statements to back up your comments? omg! what are the odds?tWiStEdD said:
tWiStEdD said:
firstly, no she wasn't talking about individuals. notice the 'we'. she was referring to australia as a whole. and secondly, who do you think the government represents? they are not a body separate from the people, they are a body of the people. if the people don't like how another country is being run, then the people (you know, those 'individuals' in the army) are sent over there to change how the other country is run. if individuals had no opinion one the running of iraq, then we wouldn't have invaded them, simple as thatkatie_tully said:
crazyhomo
under pressure
so you are agreeing that people from foreign countries often have a say in the running of that country? as you said, america have been doing it in iraq for 30 yearskatie_tully said:
and you being able to vote has everything to do with it. does it matter whether you are choosing to vote or not? the fact remains that you can't, so by your reasoning, you have no right to comment. i mean, you can't make a difference, because if you could, then you would be out there voting! or maybe because you've proven yourself an idiot time and time again you don't realise that you are being a huge hypocrite, trying to deny someone the right to an opinion, while taking it for granted the right to express your own
Jillie
New Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2004
- Messages
- 22
I think the whole point of Merlin's protest on the treatment of refugees was that he was in a camp when he was younger - or something, I missed the episode when they were talking about it.
And anyway, why should the issue be restricted to 'voting australian citizens'?? He has a problem with the way that refugees are being treated - why does he have to also vote to express this opinion? Its an issue that anyone should be able to have an opinion on, and be able to express it.
Plenty of 'foreign' people have tried to have a say in what happens in our country anyways - remember when the US president tried to influence who 'we' vote for in the next elecetion (I know he is involved with politics and so on... But) - freedom of speech and all.
Of course we should give these people our sympathy, and "sorry". The issue may have started "before our time", but the racism and prejudice caused by it still continues today. It is not so easy just to "build a bridge" and get over it - what happened was HUGE and cannot be so easily forgotten. They are treated unfairly because of thier race still - just like they were back then, maybe not to the same degree - but it still happens. It is still affecting them - And as the leader, and representative, of the country, the government, the PM should appologise. He needs to show that what happend is not acceptable - nor will it ever be.
And anyway, why should the issue be restricted to 'voting australian citizens'?? He has a problem with the way that refugees are being treated - why does he have to also vote to express this opinion? Its an issue that anyone should be able to have an opinion on, and be able to express it.
Plenty of 'foreign' people have tried to have a say in what happens in our country anyways - remember when the US president tried to influence who 'we' vote for in the next elecetion (I know he is involved with politics and so on... But) - freedom of speech and all.
Uhh, Yeah. 'We' kinda do.
Of course we should give these people our sympathy, and "sorry". The issue may have started "before our time", but the racism and prejudice caused by it still continues today. It is not so easy just to "build a bridge" and get over it - what happened was HUGE and cannot be so easily forgotten. They are treated unfairly because of thier race still - just like they were back then, maybe not to the same degree - but it still happens. It is still affecting them - And as the leader, and representative, of the country, the government, the PM should appologise. He needs to show that what happend is not acceptable - nor will it ever be.
thorrnydevil
Ancient Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2004
- Messages
- 1,521
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- HSC
- N/A
I've had enough of your stupidity and nonsense. Your an idiot who doesn't know what he/she is taking about. Go sit on your lounge chair or tie yourself to a tree you bloody hippy. Everyone else has called you these names, good on 'em. I'll re-say that, everyone ELSE. This else group is the group of even more idiots who are just trying to go along with the crowd (sorry to the ones who actually do believe in it). Your arguements HAVE been flawed on numerous occaisons and you just don't see it. Your a bloody disgrace to this country. Who wants to vote Crazyhomo off the Island?crazyhomo said:
I said it before mate and I'll say it again. If you ever go for parliament you've got my vote-your a legend.tWiStEdD said:
Also, I want a position in your cabinet. Something like Secretary Of War-OK?
Jillie-Welcome. If I didn't know you I would of layed into you already. The British did think what they where doing was right-end of story. BTW: What your talking about know, has already been discussed between Katjif and I. Merlin had the choice to become an Aussie citizen and didn't-but he still speaks on Aussie issues. We don't have the choice to become citizens of other countries. Merlin has abused this. If you wanna see my previous arguement go to page 5-its all there. Also, the stolen generation wasn't huge when compared to that of the world. The holocaust was huge, the Rwandan genocide was huge, Kosovo was huge, Sudan was huge, Iraq was huge. In these situations millions of people where killed. In the "sorry" case a couple thousand kids got taken-get my point?
And yes, Merlin was in a detention centre. Thats after he'd lived in our country for six years, ILLEGALY!
Last edited:
crazyhomo
under pressure
wow, look at that, all my flawed arguments proven wrong. and it was so simple! all you had to do was ignore them and you became right about everything!thorrnydevil said:
*cough*youcantvote*cough*thorrnydevil said:
Last edited:
Egg_666
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Messages
- 72
Ok here goes... (I have written an essay just about, read it if you want to continue posting without looking silly for stating something already disproven, or previously said. Whatever you do, dont read just half... because things relate back and forth and dont dare take me out of context in a quote... dont quote and you will avoid it)
Here are the issues (from what i see) have been discussed, starting with the original aim of this thread:
Merlin - As a political activist, as a non-Citizen
From what i see, the man is simply using his "fame", his access to spotlight, to give attention to an area of society that is often put well into the abck of our mind. An issue that has to be dealt with, yet is often shrugged aside, in favour of the more "newsworthy" and "interesting" stories of the day. I don't see much wrong with that. If a man was in his and it was invaded by criminals who threatened to kill him and his family, he could, should and would use everything in his power to repel the attack.
I admit this is a relatively extreme comparison, but Merlin is simply using what he has in his power to present to us the issue of those who all-too-often get forgotten despite their situation (which is almost as desperate as the man in the scenario above). He is using his power, his access for other people. Whilst the man in the scenario above is using his power to protect himself and his family (AND RIGHTLY SO), Merlin is not using his limelight for personal gain, like many of those big brother contestants have done, but for a selfless goal. And i personally dont see anything wrong with that. Sure it is confrontational, and possibly unpleasant, but in a world dominated by fear manipulation, with each terror having to "outshout" the other to get heard and thought about, extreme measures are often needed.
The one thing i read before in a humourous newspaper article was one about Big Brother and the irony of those that booed Merlin. I am paraphrasing here but it effectively said, "What is most ironic is that the pearl of reality television, for the first time, presented something that was totally unscripted and totally unrehearsed, the definition of reality television. And yet it was this true representation of reality television that upset the watchers so much".
But i digress.
On the issue of Merlin not having Citizenship, and not voting.
I do not know whether you need Citizenship to vote, I would doubt it. But nonetheless, this is another stupid little Peter Garrett style bashing. The first issue (i call it the first cos it is easy to get over and done with) is the fact that he is not a citizen. There is a concept which i will discuss later in relation to aborigines as well, known as historic identity.
I am Australian Born, my parents are australian born, ALL my grandparents are australian born (something many "australians" cannot say), and half of my great grandparents are Australian. I have roots to the First Fleet, where an ancestor of mine was a convict who came to Australia, and ended up being a governor of what is now Parramatta. As a result, with all this Australian influence, i consider myself almost wholy Australian. I would therefore (if for some reason i didnt have an Australian citizenship) would want to be an Australian citizen as quickly as possible.
However, if you are not born in a country, and your parents are from another country, and your grandparents and ancestry is from another country, then you have other attachments to your national identity. I recently went to Croatia, where i am linked only by 4th and 5th cousin relations. I met them when i was over there. And even though i am so far removed from them, I still felt a connection and a desire to spend time in the country where part of me is from. If i am only a small part croatian, and i felt that... i can only imagine Merlin's feelings about Germany, and Australia. A love for the country that has given you a lot, but an equal or possibly greater love for the country that you came from, and have a close link to.
So dont blame the guy for wanting to hold onto his German Citizenship, there are many Australians overseas that are permanent residents of other nations, but still wish to hold onto their Australian roots.
On the second issue, that being him not being allowed to comment on Australian politics if he isnt a citizen. HA! The man has been living here for somewhere between 18-20 years, thats probably more than i have been alive, and more than many of you guys. One can get a pretty good idea on what a country is like, the same way that you or i believe we understand Australia quite well. So he is not unqualified. And if he isnt unqualified, whats wrong with him speaking. In many cases his opinion is more legitimate than that of the Red Cross or Amnesty, whose experts make decisions and statements from afar.
Bottom Line: If one is enough of an Australian to be paying taxes, one has enough of Australia in him to comment on what is done with his money.
Now to the real MEAT of this debate, Merlin is a mere sideshow (all he ever wanted to be, a sideshow to attract the attentions of people to the main issue)
The Aboriginal Boy
"The death of the young boy is tragic". The only words that almost every side of the political debate can agree on. Its true. But the problem is that his death, appeared to be used by those aboriginal rioters as an excuse to do what they did. That is, in fact, not true. We may think they think its an excuse, THEY may think that its an excuse. THEY may believe that the cops killed the kid, WE may believe that, or that the cops were partially responsible, OR that they werent responsible at all.
The one common theme throughout the whole previous paragraph is that there is a "Blame Game" going on for who started the riots. Look deeper at the sentences above and you'll see. The Aborigines blamed the cops. WE blame the death of the kid. WE blame the aborigines for viewing the death of the kid in the way that they did. THEY blame us for not making it fair.
No one agrees, no one will ever agree. Therefore, the kids death is not even an entre in this issue. It is more complex than just his death. It goes down to a deep seeded belief, by aborigines, that Australian police are discirimatory. A belief that came from police of an earlier era requiring to use extra force to subdue Aborigines that had the same deep seeded belief of discrimination and persecution. This was, in turn, spawned from the police actions further back, those that required force to subdue the discrimination spawned from the violence before that. And so on and so on. When you go far enough back you reach the First Fleet, and the English's consequent conquering and colonising of Australia that began this persecution and discrimination, that created the deep seeded belief. The actions by the English cannot be stopped or changed. The clock cannot be turned back. Therefore we get no where by blaming it, and therefore get no where from blaming the events that happened consequently, as a symptom of the original violence.
Forgiveness/Admittance
We therefore need to find another solution.
Below was said earlier in the thread, i forget by who, but they know who they are.
"I suppose the only alternative to doing nothing is saying sorry, bulldozing over 300 years of development, and letting them have their way of life back?"
On a basic level, "300 years of development" is a very poor use of words. I do not wish to take it out of context, but even at face value it is massively misguided. Firstly 1790 odd was the time for the arrival of the First Fleet. It is now 2004, thats about 215 odd years. Secondly, for 180 years of this, aborigines did not go through "development" of any sort. They were persecuted, seperated and removed from their homes. There is no progression there, no development. They did not develop the training to use computers, or for that matter, any other of the technological advances through the 1900's, of which there were many. They therefore were 180 years behind in development, the exact reason for their current position. And importantly, and not leastly or lastly, by apologising and attempting step forward and solve the real problems that exist, we do not slip back through "300 years of development". We learn from our mistakes, we accept them, we understand them, and we endeavour not to reproduce them. But i sincerley doubt this was meant in this way, and if thats the case, whoever it was, please explain...
Your right there is only one solution, and apologising is it. But your explaination of its effects were wrong and thats why apologising is a viable solution.
There is a lot of talk about how an apology is an admittance of guilt, blah blah, we can get prosecuted or whatever. Despite the fact that its totally wrong and not true, whats wrong with that? I mean the reason it is bad is that aborigines will be managing their own money (if they won any from a case of any sort). Thats the reason its bad. Not because the government will need to fork out. IT ALREADY FORKS OUT. If it got prosecuted and had to make a payment, it would take it directly out of the funding currently going to aboriginal causes. Thats the worst case scenario (with the government leaving not a penny poorer). It is terrible only for the aborigines fighting for the money. I shall explain:
One comparison i like to make is that letting aboriginals run and distribute the money themself, is like giving a child 50 dollars to buy 2 pairs of shorts. The child will no doubt (if left to his own devices) by one pair of shorts (if that) and by 25 bucks of ice cream.
I do not say this insultingly, but the child's experience in the world of money is the same as an aborigine's experience in rebuilding a shattered people, that is, minimal. Few experts can allocate money efficiently to the needed parts of society. This occurs in all of Australia, in fact, all of the world, where Howard/Bush and other politicians continually mis allocate funds, disregarding the well being and interests of the greater Australian good. So if a system that is hundreds of years old fails to identify the needs of those whom it serves, then how can an organisational body of 20-30 years cope with a more difficult problem than most government will ever face.
Therefore our admittance and apology to the issues is not only necessary, but at no cost to ourselves.
Australia: The Next Generation
"We didn't storm this country, we didn't take children off their parents. If we did, then I agree, we SHOULD APOLOGISE. But we didn't. " (I think said by Katie)
We live in this country, we have the life that we have, on the back of the events that occured before our birth and life. We would not be HERE, if Australia had not been "stormed". We are therefore in debt to the "storming", and therefore in debt to both its successes and its failures. We cannot be blamed for the storming, but we are responsible to see that the effects of what happenned before us (the reason we exist here), are dealt with. We owe our lives to it, and we must protect the actions of the past, by solidifying and tying up the problems that came with it.
But importantly, if we are a country that celebrates the triumph of Human Spirit that was the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps in Gallipoli. A country that holds our greatest achievements (of which there have been many) high aloft as a banner of Australian Success, then we must too accept Australian failures and mistakes. We cannot in the same breath claim to be of the same ilk and character of those who fought and died bravely in WW1 and 2, and yet deny our link to those who perpetrated an ill-considered, i'll disguised genocidal policy. A policy that unfortunately suceeded.
If i can quote from a human rights activist, a former Judge of the Federal Court, Marcus Einfeld. "Some may [look upon the reconciliation movement as] a black arm band view of history. I, for one, would rather wear a black arm band than a white blindfold to block out the injustice."
NEWSFLASH! The aborigines exist no more. No longer can we say a true aboriginal is alive today. Due to the extensive seperation and "breeding" programs, the aboriginal that existed thousands of years ago, who roamed the harsh Australian outback, developing a strong and deep culture of music, art and story, exists today. Most mourn the loss. Some dont even care to glance. This newsflash is not even recent. Over 30 years ago this event occured. The last surviving aborigine died.
Even if we are not liable for things that occured in the past, we are still liable for our actions now. If we were to accept this belief that we should not apologise for the actions of our forefathers, we cannot deny that the mistakes we make today, that continue to plague the aboriginal people, are entirely our fault, and must be apologised for. One of these mistakes is not accepting and realising the actions of the past, and their implications on the current situation. And from here we apply some simple "enlightenmentist" logic.
We must apologise for what mistakes we make today, with our current government. One of these mistakes is to not learn from the past and gain understanding from it. This mistake is caused by not apologising and not trying to gain any intelligent and insightful ideas from our past. Therefore, we must apologise for our mistake of not apologising. It turns on its head.
Aboriginal Problem/Solution
"cant say i've met many that will positivly contribute to Australia in the future, but who's fault is that? Its sure as hell not my fault that all of them i've met have been part of the local G-Unit thus limiting their vocab to 'dawg', 'bro', 'bitch' and 'sup'... far below the requirements for getting places"
Once again we come back to the blame game, and who's fault it is. We must look past the blame. We are not at fault for how these kids grew up, but we exist in our current form because of the same events that led to how these kids grew up. Do you not see that link, that relation. They way we grew up is related to the way they grew up, its not our fault, but its our duty to give back some of what we gained as a direct result of what they lost.
Divisionism
A comment was made earlier about the fact that Aborigines dont want to consider themselves Australian but as Aborigines. I am about to make the same point that i made earlier about Merlin. HISTORICAL IDENTITY. The aboriginal ideal and culture, is one of the oldest in the world, if not the oldest. If anything, this newborn Australianism should be converting to them aboriginal identity, not the other way round.
These people harken back to the days of living off the land and in the outback, a time where life was simple, difficult, but simple relative to the modern world. These people WANT, DESERVE, NEED a cultural identity. The loss of that by calling them all Australians would be devastating, shortsighted, and disastrous. Aboriginals ARE Australians. The same way, people who have migrated from Italy or France, 20 years ago, ARE Australians. Jews ARE Australians. Buddhists ARE Australians. Its amazing how obvious it gets tho when you say Catholics ARE Australians. All of the above should be equally obvious.
Aborigines have yet to see the advantages of joining a modern era however, and distance themself from it. In doing so they disadvantage themselves for sure (in our opinions), but when one doesnt see the green grass on the other side of the fence, they dont want to go round. WE must present a way. Through accepting their problems, their ideas, their beliefs of us, whether or not we think them as wrong. We have to get them to like us, by showing them how nice we can be. An era of caring and friendship will change their old-fashioned views of how Australians used to be.
Remember guys, it was in the late 60s when Aborigines got some rights for the first time. Persecution wasnt that long ago my friends. it was our parents and grandparents generation. The same way people feel particularly sorry for actions that their parents may have done to others, is the way we should be feeling towards aborigines.
Crazyhomo
Mate, you are simply a genius. You can pick up sometimes the most minorest thing, and turn a whole argument on it. Other times you can come up with original intelligent thoughts, that are often unarguable. And all the time funny.
*Phew* Finished
Here are the issues (from what i see) have been discussed, starting with the original aim of this thread:
Merlin - As a political activist, as a non-Citizen
From what i see, the man is simply using his "fame", his access to spotlight, to give attention to an area of society that is often put well into the abck of our mind. An issue that has to be dealt with, yet is often shrugged aside, in favour of the more "newsworthy" and "interesting" stories of the day. I don't see much wrong with that. If a man was in his and it was invaded by criminals who threatened to kill him and his family, he could, should and would use everything in his power to repel the attack.
I admit this is a relatively extreme comparison, but Merlin is simply using what he has in his power to present to us the issue of those who all-too-often get forgotten despite their situation (which is almost as desperate as the man in the scenario above). He is using his power, his access for other people. Whilst the man in the scenario above is using his power to protect himself and his family (AND RIGHTLY SO), Merlin is not using his limelight for personal gain, like many of those big brother contestants have done, but for a selfless goal. And i personally dont see anything wrong with that. Sure it is confrontational, and possibly unpleasant, but in a world dominated by fear manipulation, with each terror having to "outshout" the other to get heard and thought about, extreme measures are often needed.
The one thing i read before in a humourous newspaper article was one about Big Brother and the irony of those that booed Merlin. I am paraphrasing here but it effectively said, "What is most ironic is that the pearl of reality television, for the first time, presented something that was totally unscripted and totally unrehearsed, the definition of reality television. And yet it was this true representation of reality television that upset the watchers so much".
But i digress.
On the issue of Merlin not having Citizenship, and not voting.
I do not know whether you need Citizenship to vote, I would doubt it. But nonetheless, this is another stupid little Peter Garrett style bashing. The first issue (i call it the first cos it is easy to get over and done with) is the fact that he is not a citizen. There is a concept which i will discuss later in relation to aborigines as well, known as historic identity.
I am Australian Born, my parents are australian born, ALL my grandparents are australian born (something many "australians" cannot say), and half of my great grandparents are Australian. I have roots to the First Fleet, where an ancestor of mine was a convict who came to Australia, and ended up being a governor of what is now Parramatta. As a result, with all this Australian influence, i consider myself almost wholy Australian. I would therefore (if for some reason i didnt have an Australian citizenship) would want to be an Australian citizen as quickly as possible.
However, if you are not born in a country, and your parents are from another country, and your grandparents and ancestry is from another country, then you have other attachments to your national identity. I recently went to Croatia, where i am linked only by 4th and 5th cousin relations. I met them when i was over there. And even though i am so far removed from them, I still felt a connection and a desire to spend time in the country where part of me is from. If i am only a small part croatian, and i felt that... i can only imagine Merlin's feelings about Germany, and Australia. A love for the country that has given you a lot, but an equal or possibly greater love for the country that you came from, and have a close link to.
So dont blame the guy for wanting to hold onto his German Citizenship, there are many Australians overseas that are permanent residents of other nations, but still wish to hold onto their Australian roots.
On the second issue, that being him not being allowed to comment on Australian politics if he isnt a citizen. HA! The man has been living here for somewhere between 18-20 years, thats probably more than i have been alive, and more than many of you guys. One can get a pretty good idea on what a country is like, the same way that you or i believe we understand Australia quite well. So he is not unqualified. And if he isnt unqualified, whats wrong with him speaking. In many cases his opinion is more legitimate than that of the Red Cross or Amnesty, whose experts make decisions and statements from afar.
Bottom Line: If one is enough of an Australian to be paying taxes, one has enough of Australia in him to comment on what is done with his money.
Now to the real MEAT of this debate, Merlin is a mere sideshow (all he ever wanted to be, a sideshow to attract the attentions of people to the main issue)
The Aboriginal Boy
"The death of the young boy is tragic". The only words that almost every side of the political debate can agree on. Its true. But the problem is that his death, appeared to be used by those aboriginal rioters as an excuse to do what they did. That is, in fact, not true. We may think they think its an excuse, THEY may think that its an excuse. THEY may believe that the cops killed the kid, WE may believe that, or that the cops were partially responsible, OR that they werent responsible at all.
The one common theme throughout the whole previous paragraph is that there is a "Blame Game" going on for who started the riots. Look deeper at the sentences above and you'll see. The Aborigines blamed the cops. WE blame the death of the kid. WE blame the aborigines for viewing the death of the kid in the way that they did. THEY blame us for not making it fair.
No one agrees, no one will ever agree. Therefore, the kids death is not even an entre in this issue. It is more complex than just his death. It goes down to a deep seeded belief, by aborigines, that Australian police are discirimatory. A belief that came from police of an earlier era requiring to use extra force to subdue Aborigines that had the same deep seeded belief of discrimination and persecution. This was, in turn, spawned from the police actions further back, those that required force to subdue the discrimination spawned from the violence before that. And so on and so on. When you go far enough back you reach the First Fleet, and the English's consequent conquering and colonising of Australia that began this persecution and discrimination, that created the deep seeded belief. The actions by the English cannot be stopped or changed. The clock cannot be turned back. Therefore we get no where by blaming it, and therefore get no where from blaming the events that happened consequently, as a symptom of the original violence.
Forgiveness/Admittance
We therefore need to find another solution.
Below was said earlier in the thread, i forget by who, but they know who they are.
"I suppose the only alternative to doing nothing is saying sorry, bulldozing over 300 years of development, and letting them have their way of life back?"
On a basic level, "300 years of development" is a very poor use of words. I do not wish to take it out of context, but even at face value it is massively misguided. Firstly 1790 odd was the time for the arrival of the First Fleet. It is now 2004, thats about 215 odd years. Secondly, for 180 years of this, aborigines did not go through "development" of any sort. They were persecuted, seperated and removed from their homes. There is no progression there, no development. They did not develop the training to use computers, or for that matter, any other of the technological advances through the 1900's, of which there were many. They therefore were 180 years behind in development, the exact reason for their current position. And importantly, and not leastly or lastly, by apologising and attempting step forward and solve the real problems that exist, we do not slip back through "300 years of development". We learn from our mistakes, we accept them, we understand them, and we endeavour not to reproduce them. But i sincerley doubt this was meant in this way, and if thats the case, whoever it was, please explain...
Your right there is only one solution, and apologising is it. But your explaination of its effects were wrong and thats why apologising is a viable solution.
There is a lot of talk about how an apology is an admittance of guilt, blah blah, we can get prosecuted or whatever. Despite the fact that its totally wrong and not true, whats wrong with that? I mean the reason it is bad is that aborigines will be managing their own money (if they won any from a case of any sort). Thats the reason its bad. Not because the government will need to fork out. IT ALREADY FORKS OUT. If it got prosecuted and had to make a payment, it would take it directly out of the funding currently going to aboriginal causes. Thats the worst case scenario (with the government leaving not a penny poorer). It is terrible only for the aborigines fighting for the money. I shall explain:
One comparison i like to make is that letting aboriginals run and distribute the money themself, is like giving a child 50 dollars to buy 2 pairs of shorts. The child will no doubt (if left to his own devices) by one pair of shorts (if that) and by 25 bucks of ice cream.
I do not say this insultingly, but the child's experience in the world of money is the same as an aborigine's experience in rebuilding a shattered people, that is, minimal. Few experts can allocate money efficiently to the needed parts of society. This occurs in all of Australia, in fact, all of the world, where Howard/Bush and other politicians continually mis allocate funds, disregarding the well being and interests of the greater Australian good. So if a system that is hundreds of years old fails to identify the needs of those whom it serves, then how can an organisational body of 20-30 years cope with a more difficult problem than most government will ever face.
Therefore our admittance and apology to the issues is not only necessary, but at no cost to ourselves.
Australia: The Next Generation
"We didn't storm this country, we didn't take children off their parents. If we did, then I agree, we SHOULD APOLOGISE. But we didn't. " (I think said by Katie)
We live in this country, we have the life that we have, on the back of the events that occured before our birth and life. We would not be HERE, if Australia had not been "stormed". We are therefore in debt to the "storming", and therefore in debt to both its successes and its failures. We cannot be blamed for the storming, but we are responsible to see that the effects of what happenned before us (the reason we exist here), are dealt with. We owe our lives to it, and we must protect the actions of the past, by solidifying and tying up the problems that came with it.
But importantly, if we are a country that celebrates the triumph of Human Spirit that was the Australian and New Zealand Army Corps in Gallipoli. A country that holds our greatest achievements (of which there have been many) high aloft as a banner of Australian Success, then we must too accept Australian failures and mistakes. We cannot in the same breath claim to be of the same ilk and character of those who fought and died bravely in WW1 and 2, and yet deny our link to those who perpetrated an ill-considered, i'll disguised genocidal policy. A policy that unfortunately suceeded.
If i can quote from a human rights activist, a former Judge of the Federal Court, Marcus Einfeld. "Some may [look upon the reconciliation movement as] a black arm band view of history. I, for one, would rather wear a black arm band than a white blindfold to block out the injustice."
NEWSFLASH! The aborigines exist no more. No longer can we say a true aboriginal is alive today. Due to the extensive seperation and "breeding" programs, the aboriginal that existed thousands of years ago, who roamed the harsh Australian outback, developing a strong and deep culture of music, art and story, exists today. Most mourn the loss. Some dont even care to glance. This newsflash is not even recent. Over 30 years ago this event occured. The last surviving aborigine died.
Even if we are not liable for things that occured in the past, we are still liable for our actions now. If we were to accept this belief that we should not apologise for the actions of our forefathers, we cannot deny that the mistakes we make today, that continue to plague the aboriginal people, are entirely our fault, and must be apologised for. One of these mistakes is not accepting and realising the actions of the past, and their implications on the current situation. And from here we apply some simple "enlightenmentist" logic.
We must apologise for what mistakes we make today, with our current government. One of these mistakes is to not learn from the past and gain understanding from it. This mistake is caused by not apologising and not trying to gain any intelligent and insightful ideas from our past. Therefore, we must apologise for our mistake of not apologising. It turns on its head.
Aboriginal Problem/Solution
"cant say i've met many that will positivly contribute to Australia in the future, but who's fault is that? Its sure as hell not my fault that all of them i've met have been part of the local G-Unit thus limiting their vocab to 'dawg', 'bro', 'bitch' and 'sup'... far below the requirements for getting places"
Once again we come back to the blame game, and who's fault it is. We must look past the blame. We are not at fault for how these kids grew up, but we exist in our current form because of the same events that led to how these kids grew up. Do you not see that link, that relation. They way we grew up is related to the way they grew up, its not our fault, but its our duty to give back some of what we gained as a direct result of what they lost.
Divisionism
A comment was made earlier about the fact that Aborigines dont want to consider themselves Australian but as Aborigines. I am about to make the same point that i made earlier about Merlin. HISTORICAL IDENTITY. The aboriginal ideal and culture, is one of the oldest in the world, if not the oldest. If anything, this newborn Australianism should be converting to them aboriginal identity, not the other way round.
These people harken back to the days of living off the land and in the outback, a time where life was simple, difficult, but simple relative to the modern world. These people WANT, DESERVE, NEED a cultural identity. The loss of that by calling them all Australians would be devastating, shortsighted, and disastrous. Aboriginals ARE Australians. The same way, people who have migrated from Italy or France, 20 years ago, ARE Australians. Jews ARE Australians. Buddhists ARE Australians. Its amazing how obvious it gets tho when you say Catholics ARE Australians. All of the above should be equally obvious.
Aborigines have yet to see the advantages of joining a modern era however, and distance themself from it. In doing so they disadvantage themselves for sure (in our opinions), but when one doesnt see the green grass on the other side of the fence, they dont want to go round. WE must present a way. Through accepting their problems, their ideas, their beliefs of us, whether or not we think them as wrong. We have to get them to like us, by showing them how nice we can be. An era of caring and friendship will change their old-fashioned views of how Australians used to be.
Remember guys, it was in the late 60s when Aborigines got some rights for the first time. Persecution wasnt that long ago my friends. it was our parents and grandparents generation. The same way people feel particularly sorry for actions that their parents may have done to others, is the way we should be feeling towards aborigines.
Crazyhomo
Mate, you are simply a genius. You can pick up sometimes the most minorest thing, and turn a whole argument on it. Other times you can come up with original intelligent thoughts, that are often unarguable. And all the time funny.
*Phew* Finished
K
katie_tully
Guest
German people should issue a statement of apology to every Jewish person on earth.
British and Dutch people should issue a statement of apology to the South Africans.
France, go apologise to Cameroon.
New Zealanders, have a cry for the Maori's...
Americans, YOU have ALOT of explaining to do..
Same with you Japan, you trigger happy little bastards. Go on, everybody from every nation turn around and pat every race on the head, purely because if you're born there, you're responsible.
Actually, Merlin, being the German lad you are, join me hand in hand while we apologise for the fact Hitler was a git. Oh wait, he wasn't German. He was Austrian...Off you go Austria, stop making chocolate for 5 minutes and get on your knees.
Oh, and I'M SORRY EVERYBODY if you lost a relative in the world wars, I guess being of half Italian heritage makes ME just as RESPONSIBLE for the actions of MUSSOLINI even though I wasn't born, even though my family fought for the allies, even though I DISAGREE with what happened...
Oh and because the other half is German I'll go around the back and shoot myself in the head..
SORRY POLAND! SORRY FRANCE! SORRY TO THE JEWISH!
So go for it Australia. APOLOGISE for what YOU didnt do. Apparently YOU are just as responsible for taking these children out of their homes. YOU are directly responsible for the fact that they were masacred. Hang your heads in shame. You were born into this country of no real choice of your own, therefore for the rest of your life you SHOULD, as a CITIZEN of this country, APOLOGISE for the actions of people A LONG TIME AGO. YOU are as much to blame for what happened as those who did it.
Oh yeah, I see the logic.
Shut the fuck up and implement a solution that doesnt involve admitting wrong, when we've done no wrong. Start an organisation, raise money for aboriginal issues.
If we do say sorry, can we drop the whole issue? Does that mean it's over and done? Is that all they want? An apology. Will we never hear of this issue again?
I think not. Why? Because it isn't a practical solution, it isn't going to prove anything.
Obviously if you don't condone the actions, and obviously disagreeing with what happened isn't good enough. So get off your arse, say sorry and admit that as descendants you're equally as to blame.
British and Dutch people should issue a statement of apology to the South Africans.
France, go apologise to Cameroon.
New Zealanders, have a cry for the Maori's...
Americans, YOU have ALOT of explaining to do..
Same with you Japan, you trigger happy little bastards. Go on, everybody from every nation turn around and pat every race on the head, purely because if you're born there, you're responsible.
Actually, Merlin, being the German lad you are, join me hand in hand while we apologise for the fact Hitler was a git. Oh wait, he wasn't German. He was Austrian...Off you go Austria, stop making chocolate for 5 minutes and get on your knees.
Oh, and I'M SORRY EVERYBODY if you lost a relative in the world wars, I guess being of half Italian heritage makes ME just as RESPONSIBLE for the actions of MUSSOLINI even though I wasn't born, even though my family fought for the allies, even though I DISAGREE with what happened...
Oh and because the other half is German I'll go around the back and shoot myself in the head..
SORRY POLAND! SORRY FRANCE! SORRY TO THE JEWISH!
So go for it Australia. APOLOGISE for what YOU didnt do. Apparently YOU are just as responsible for taking these children out of their homes. YOU are directly responsible for the fact that they were masacred. Hang your heads in shame. You were born into this country of no real choice of your own, therefore for the rest of your life you SHOULD, as a CITIZEN of this country, APOLOGISE for the actions of people A LONG TIME AGO. YOU are as much to blame for what happened as those who did it.
Oh yeah, I see the logic.
Shut the fuck up and implement a solution that doesnt involve admitting wrong, when we've done no wrong. Start an organisation, raise money for aboriginal issues.
If we do say sorry, can we drop the whole issue? Does that mean it's over and done? Is that all they want? An apology. Will we never hear of this issue again?
I think not. Why? Because it isn't a practical solution, it isn't going to prove anything.
Obviously if you don't condone the actions, and obviously disagreeing with what happened isn't good enough. So get off your arse, say sorry and admit that as descendants you're equally as to blame.
Egg_666
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Messages
- 72
Katie what you sont seem to understand is that many of these nations have and do apologise for what they've done.
The South African White population is getting a very raw end of the stick now for their role in apartheid. Germany (and everyother country that joins the EU) MUST, if they had a role in the holocaust murders at all, pay reparations to Jews who were removed from their homes and places of business. New Zealanders have an active compaign to get the Maori's into mainstream New Zealand.
At the same time, those that dont apologise, and those that dont try to seek the solutions that come from it are failing. America is getting buggered up because of this same neglect of a large group of people. Blacks and Native Indians live in terrible conditions because the Americans refuse to put the real time and effort into producing a solution.
You obviously didnt read the whole of my post (though i dont entirely blame you) when you say "YOU Australians" and "US" and "WE" your talking about AUSTRALIA. You are talking about what we represent. What we do today reflects upon AUSTRALIA. The actions we take today further changes and defines AUSTRALIA. We are therefore also a party to what others did to define Australia. If there is any sense of national identity, then we must represent our country, strengthen our country, improve our country. And here we have one definate way of doing that.
The South African White population is getting a very raw end of the stick now for their role in apartheid. Germany (and everyother country that joins the EU) MUST, if they had a role in the holocaust murders at all, pay reparations to Jews who were removed from their homes and places of business. New Zealanders have an active compaign to get the Maori's into mainstream New Zealand.
At the same time, those that dont apologise, and those that dont try to seek the solutions that come from it are failing. America is getting buggered up because of this same neglect of a large group of people. Blacks and Native Indians live in terrible conditions because the Americans refuse to put the real time and effort into producing a solution.
You obviously didnt read the whole of my post (though i dont entirely blame you) when you say "YOU Australians" and "US" and "WE" your talking about AUSTRALIA. You are talking about what we represent. What we do today reflects upon AUSTRALIA. The actions we take today further changes and defines AUSTRALIA. We are therefore also a party to what others did to define Australia. If there is any sense of national identity, then we must represent our country, strengthen our country, improve our country. And here we have one definate way of doing that.
tWiStEdD
deity of ultimate reason
have and do?
Firstly, while your post is impressive in length and structure (thus making it seem more credible, it is essentially flawed in that it does not provide mcuh, if any, real support for what you are saying. I'm attacking the issue from the perspective of a social realist, not from a moral perspective. i would encourage people to take your points on lightly, if at all.
'Sorry'
i'm afraid they dont, matey. reparations are not the same as apologies, but i do understand the sense of guilt that the germans feel is very real. it would be foolish, however, to draw a comparison between the Nazis under Hitler to Australia under Barton and beyond. Howard SHOULD NOT be put into a position where he is pressured by minority groups to apologise for the whole of Australia for things that happened 214 years previously (NB: i didnt think when i wrote 300... i just looked at 100's of years, and didnt remember the '90 bit. my apologies. when i made this point i was referring to Australian development on the whole). While i understand that the issue is still present, it is not as simple as 'sorry'. we've all got problems with one another these days, blacks V whites V blacks. unfortunately we have a vicious circle whereby it becomes hard to socialise or even trust a member of the 'other side'.
Merlin, the righteous wizard
i tip my hat to him, but i dont think for a moment that his opinions will greatly change Australia at all. I also dont think he should use his 15 minutes of fame to ensure his political opinions are heard.
Aboriginal Problem/Solution
When i said that, mate, i was talking about my area and my area only. That's what rural Australia seems to see. Tell me, what am i supposed to think when they hate us for piting them, but then they hate us for not apologising or for not giving them a 'fair go'.
They're not helping the problem any more than we are.
Conclusion
- I dont hate Aboriginal people.
- I feel for Aboriginal people.
- I'm sorry that they had a hard time in the past, but i'm not sorry. I'm not responsible.
- It will be an eternal issue that we will have to just put behind us if we want to move forward. The hardest part of moving on, is not looking back. That is the problem here.
- If I had a time machine I would go back in time and let France or Spain take over... do you really think the Aboriginals would have it any better under those two? -shudder- They should be counting their lucky stars that they even exist today.
- Life is a gift, if anything at all, and we really need to enjoy it due to the finite amount of time we have here. I really dont think it should be wasted moping and whinging about the past, i'm sorry... that's just how i look at it.
Firstly, while your post is impressive in length and structure (thus making it seem more credible, it is essentially flawed in that it does not provide mcuh, if any, real support for what you are saying. I'm attacking the issue from the perspective of a social realist, not from a moral perspective. i would encourage people to take your points on lightly, if at all.
'Sorry'
i'm afraid they dont, matey. reparations are not the same as apologies, but i do understand the sense of guilt that the germans feel is very real. it would be foolish, however, to draw a comparison between the Nazis under Hitler to Australia under Barton and beyond. Howard SHOULD NOT be put into a position where he is pressured by minority groups to apologise for the whole of Australia for things that happened 214 years previously (NB: i didnt think when i wrote 300... i just looked at 100's of years, and didnt remember the '90 bit. my apologies. when i made this point i was referring to Australian development on the whole). While i understand that the issue is still present, it is not as simple as 'sorry'. we've all got problems with one another these days, blacks V whites V blacks. unfortunately we have a vicious circle whereby it becomes hard to socialise or even trust a member of the 'other side'.
Merlin, the righteous wizard
i tip my hat to him, but i dont think for a moment that his opinions will greatly change Australia at all. I also dont think he should use his 15 minutes of fame to ensure his political opinions are heard.
Aboriginal Problem/Solution
When i said that, mate, i was talking about my area and my area only. That's what rural Australia seems to see. Tell me, what am i supposed to think when they hate us for piting them, but then they hate us for not apologising or for not giving them a 'fair go'.
They're not helping the problem any more than we are.
Conclusion
- I dont hate Aboriginal people.
- I feel for Aboriginal people.
- I'm sorry that they had a hard time in the past, but i'm not sorry. I'm not responsible.
- It will be an eternal issue that we will have to just put behind us if we want to move forward. The hardest part of moving on, is not looking back. That is the problem here.
- If I had a time machine I would go back in time and let France or Spain take over... do you really think the Aboriginals would have it any better under those two? -shudder- They should be counting their lucky stars that they even exist today.
- Life is a gift, if anything at all, and we really need to enjoy it due to the finite amount of time we have here. I really dont think it should be wasted moping and whinging about the past, i'm sorry... that's just how i look at it.
Egg_666
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Messages
- 72
What do you think he should do with it then? That was one of my points. Do you want him to go into petty advertising and minor television hosting roles? Or do something that really means something to people? I, for one, would think better to do something meaningful, to show who you really are.tWiStEdD said:
Yeh, their lucky allright...tWiStEdD said:
under that logic, we should all be happy that we werent under the power of the Roman Church or the Mongol leaders or any vicious medieval dictator, and forget the current problems because "AT LEAST ITS BETTER THAN SOME EVIL ENGLISH MONARCH"
You would definately be not saying that if you hadnt seen your mother for 40 years because you were taken from her when you were 5. Imagine if that had happenned and some bloke said to you, "Stop whinging mate, be happy your alive".... I dunno, but personally, that doesnt sound like the best idea. (Not including the fact that your life has little future, because of mismanagement of funds)tWiStEdD said:
K
katie_tully
Guest
I think I love you thornydevil.
Sigh.
Homo, so far you've only proven that you're good at making petty remarks and childish name calling.
Kudos to you, genius. I'm a bit better than that, I can argue without pointing out you're a complete git in every post I make.
What happened should not have happened.
It no longer happens.
There are other ways to rectify the situation without having to say sorry.
We have nothing to say sorry about.
John Howard has no reason to apologise to the Aboriginals.
As for the voting;
I would vote, if I could. As I can't, I'll remain firm on the grounds that if you're going to live in a country, speak out on issues in that country and make a politcal stand, you should, out of respect become a citizen of this country. Merlin is not a citizen. Merlin cannot vote. Merlin had the choice to become one. Merlin decided not to. Merlin then criticizes the Australian government.
You can draw a distinct line between the Australians who murdered the Aboriginals, and the Germans who murdered 6 million jews. If we're expected to say sorry for something we didn't do, if we're supposed to feel guilty for being born into a country that was stolen by somebody else then, as I've said before, everybody should apologise and feel guilty. Regardless of whether it was yesterday, 100 years ago or 500 years ago.
We are not America. Stop using what happens in America to compare to what happens in Australia. We treat our Aboriginals better than they treat their blacks. We, as a nation are making an effort to keep their culture in tact, to educate them... Why am I even refering to the Aboriginals, as them? Because throughout this entire Merlin topic, everybody has drawn a distinct line between them and us. But we're the same aren't we? We're Australians. One combined nation of different nationalities. Therefore, as a multicultural nation, we should move on, not forget but not apologise for the past.
By saying sorry, and therefore admitting to doing wrong, we are not strengthening our nation. What will it prove? It proves that we are sorry for the fact that the Aboriginals have experienced injustices. But newsflash kids; They no longer suffer any more injustice than any other person in this country. Aboriginals shouldnt be treated any different to whites, italians, asians, etc.
There should be NO distinct line, we should be united. Instead, I see these special organisations dedicated to one specific race of people, constantly drawing a line between themselves and us.
The situation has been rectified. The Aboriginals have health care, education, equal oppurtunities and government incentives. So why should we say sorry?
What pisses me off is that people are under this misguided impression that we have a duty to apologise, and that because we are in this country we have a responsibility to fix what cant be fixed.
Saying sorry will not fix the problem. Moving on, protecting their own identity, and moving forwards will. Will we be hanging on this topic in 100 years?
If people like Merlin and tree huggers continue to pop from the wombs Fern Gully, then yeah, probably.
Sigh.
Homo, so far you've only proven that you're good at making petty remarks and childish name calling.
Kudos to you, genius. I'm a bit better than that, I can argue without pointing out you're a complete git in every post I make.
What happened should not have happened.
It no longer happens.
There are other ways to rectify the situation without having to say sorry.
We have nothing to say sorry about.
John Howard has no reason to apologise to the Aboriginals.
As for the voting;
I would vote, if I could. As I can't, I'll remain firm on the grounds that if you're going to live in a country, speak out on issues in that country and make a politcal stand, you should, out of respect become a citizen of this country. Merlin is not a citizen. Merlin cannot vote. Merlin had the choice to become one. Merlin decided not to. Merlin then criticizes the Australian government.
You can draw a distinct line between the Australians who murdered the Aboriginals, and the Germans who murdered 6 million jews. If we're expected to say sorry for something we didn't do, if we're supposed to feel guilty for being born into a country that was stolen by somebody else then, as I've said before, everybody should apologise and feel guilty. Regardless of whether it was yesterday, 100 years ago or 500 years ago.
We are not America. Stop using what happens in America to compare to what happens in Australia. We treat our Aboriginals better than they treat their blacks. We, as a nation are making an effort to keep their culture in tact, to educate them... Why am I even refering to the Aboriginals, as them? Because throughout this entire Merlin topic, everybody has drawn a distinct line between them and us. But we're the same aren't we? We're Australians. One combined nation of different nationalities. Therefore, as a multicultural nation, we should move on, not forget but not apologise for the past.
By saying sorry, and therefore admitting to doing wrong, we are not strengthening our nation. What will it prove? It proves that we are sorry for the fact that the Aboriginals have experienced injustices. But newsflash kids; They no longer suffer any more injustice than any other person in this country. Aboriginals shouldnt be treated any different to whites, italians, asians, etc.
There should be NO distinct line, we should be united. Instead, I see these special organisations dedicated to one specific race of people, constantly drawing a line between themselves and us.
The situation has been rectified. The Aboriginals have health care, education, equal oppurtunities and government incentives. So why should we say sorry?
What pisses me off is that people are under this misguided impression that we have a duty to apologise, and that because we are in this country we have a responsibility to fix what cant be fixed.
Saying sorry will not fix the problem. Moving on, protecting their own identity, and moving forwards will. Will we be hanging on this topic in 100 years?
If people like Merlin and tree huggers continue to pop from the wombs Fern Gully, then yeah, probably.
Katjif
pondering dystopic life
Ok once again, this complete situation has lost it's meaning. We are not here to disputer who is "right" and who is "wrong". There's not a definitive answer here!
Egg: I totally agree ur thesis (yes let's call it that!) was structured, well-written and succinct(ok maybe a TAD long) but I think it def. showed your opinion and stuff, which is cool. I get where you're coming from and stuff
I reckon that we've past the point of no return here. Once again, I think a lot of you are wrong, but hey, it's a free country isn't it? That's what this all comes down to.. a point a lot of us seem to have forgotten.
With the whole viting issue, I think Katie summed it up pretty well : If we could all vote, we would. It's not about whether we're allowed (WE SOOO SHOULD BE) but it's the fact that we aren't legally allowed to. Over the course of this debate, I've changed my mind.. I think Merlin should perhaps keep his opinions a little more tactful until he applies for citizenship. Katie said :
I would vote, if I could. As I can't, I'll remain firm on the grounds that if you're going to live in a country, speak out on issues in that country and make a politcal stand, you should, out of respect become a citizen of this country. Merlin is not a citizen. Merlin cannot vote. Merlin had the choice to become one. Merlin decided not to. Merlin then criticizes the Australian government.
I don't agree with a lot of Kati'es opinion, but this one I do. I still think he has the "right" to speak about it (just like I have the "right" to talk about Hitler, the American issues, Canadian issues, Cameroon etc) but of course, if he had the CHOICE then maybe he should have taken it.,
Just out of interest, is there some website that has Merlin's email address? I think we should let him know about his forum..he might be interested..
Egg: I totally agree ur thesis (yes let's call it that!) was structured, well-written and succinct(ok maybe a TAD long) but I think it def. showed your opinion and stuff, which is cool. I get where you're coming from and stuff
I reckon that we've past the point of no return here. Once again, I think a lot of you are wrong, but hey, it's a free country isn't it? That's what this all comes down to.. a point a lot of us seem to have forgotten.
With the whole viting issue, I think Katie summed it up pretty well : If we could all vote, we would. It's not about whether we're allowed (WE SOOO SHOULD BE) but it's the fact that we aren't legally allowed to. Over the course of this debate, I've changed my mind.. I think Merlin should perhaps keep his opinions a little more tactful until he applies for citizenship. Katie said :
I would vote, if I could. As I can't, I'll remain firm on the grounds that if you're going to live in a country, speak out on issues in that country and make a politcal stand, you should, out of respect become a citizen of this country. Merlin is not a citizen. Merlin cannot vote. Merlin had the choice to become one. Merlin decided not to. Merlin then criticizes the Australian government.
I don't agree with a lot of Kati'es opinion, but this one I do. I still think he has the "right" to speak about it (just like I have the "right" to talk about Hitler, the American issues, Canadian issues, Cameroon etc) but of course, if he had the CHOICE then maybe he should have taken it.,
Just out of interest, is there some website that has Merlin's email address? I think we should let him know about his forum..he might be interested..
Kulazzi
Active Member
thorrnydevil said:
Clearly you're a bit confused because you still haven't replied to the post I had made:
Egg_666
Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Messages
- 72
that was the most remarkable tale of contradiction i have quite ever seen. Allow me to point them out.
He STILL decides not to, he STILL has the choice to become one. BUT the man has a connection with his homeland. WHERE HE WAS BORN. Whats wrong with that?... it would be more shameful of him if he were to return to Germany and begin to comment about the politics there. Thats whats worse. Someone leaving the country when they were young, no longer contributing that society, and THEN pushing opinions on it. Thats wrong. But being in a place where he pays taxes and participates in the community, and passing judgement on what he sees, thats just human nature.
You say "If we're expected to say sorry for something we didnt do, if we're supposed to feel guilty .... then everybody should apologise" But all I guess you are saying is that you dont believe we should be saying sorry for something we didnt do. But you dont say why... Why, when we proudly answer to the call of Australia's successes, should we not humbly accept our failures?
If you have no answer apart from, "because you are not supposed to feel sorry for something we didnt do" then you simply have been brought up on the ideals that you are only responsible for yourself and that no matter who you associate with you should always be judged independantly. Well in an ideal world, Katie, that would be fine. But in a world with 6 billion people, generalisations are inevitable.
I'm sure you've heard the saying, "Go to bed with dogs and get up with fleas". Well thats the case here. If you want be an Australian and if that word, AUSTRALIAN, means anything at all, then you link yourself with AUSTRALIA, its past present and future. One cant simply take the best of something and leave the rest. One cannot have it all.
Unfortunately the only reason African Americans get it better off than aborigines in Australia is because if they didnt... America would have been destroyed. An entire black population of uneducated, alcoholic, petrol sniffing, violent youths? I think we would be hearing of mass killings if that was the case.
In Australia we can mroe succesfully ignore the plight of aborigines because of the very small minority that they have.
Now this next bit of hypocrisy and contradiction is amazing.
OF COURSE THERE'S A PROBLEM. WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IF NOT THE PROBLEM OF SEPERATION BETWEEN ABORIGINES AND OTHER AUSTRALIANS???
I could spurt off a thousand statistics to disprove "Aboriginals have health care and education". But no doubt you cant be that silly and mindless to believe that there is equality there.
One major point. People who live in crappy houses, no insulation, no pest control, little washing facilites, few hygiene facilities need BETTER healthcare than those that grow up in mansions with reverse-cycle air conditioning. Yet these people in fact get less access.
Let me tell you a little secret. Read this sentence carefully, twice over if you dare to fully understand it.
EQUAL TREATMENT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ON UNEQUAL LEVELS MERELY PERPETUATES THE INEQUALITY.
If two people, one rich and one poor, are given the same treatment, the rich one will increase his wealth faster than the poor one. By doing so, he increases the inequality at a faster and faster rate.
So believe me the problem is not solved, and wont be except by extra treatment for those who have it worse off to help them out of their position.
You cant unify a group of people who are on disastrously different economic, educational and health levels. This breeds discontent from those that are worse off. As a result we have clearly defined boundaries between social groups, not seperated because of race, colour or religion, but because of poverty. And because these people were all worse off, they experience greater poverty as a whole.
They are split through poverty, because their race was segregated.
No longer is racism the guiding force behind inequality, but poverty is the great unequaliser. This is because poverty maintains itself, even increases itself. Some may see the world as one divided by race, but it is only divided through poverty that came from the racist, divisionist policies of the past.
Lastly, i just want to correct your grammar, Aborigines is the noun. Aboriginal is the adjective. There is no such think Aboriginals. Aboriginal Kid; YES. Aboriginal; NO.
A few things there that are completely untrue. First, you speak in past tense all the time. "Merlin decided not to" "Merlin HAD the choice to become one".katie_tully said:
He STILL decides not to, he STILL has the choice to become one. BUT the man has a connection with his homeland. WHERE HE WAS BORN. Whats wrong with that?... it would be more shameful of him if he were to return to Germany and begin to comment about the politics there. Thats whats worse. Someone leaving the country when they were young, no longer contributing that society, and THEN pushing opinions on it. Thats wrong. But being in a place where he pays taxes and participates in the community, and passing judgement on what he sees, thats just human nature.
Genocide, Killing, Displacement, Removal of birthrites. These are terrible words that dont need plurals. There are differences between the Australians that murdered, among other terrible attrocities, Aborigines and the Germans that slaughtered 6 million Jews, Communists, Political prisoners, Gypsies, Non-Aryans. But it is not in the numbers. The scale is not what makes the biggest difference. The events in WW2 and through Australia's history are markedly different, but result in similar atrocities. The belittling of the line between Nazi Germany and Liberal (and at times, Labor) Australia come through in the results. Death, Persecution, Destruction.katie_tully said:
You say "If we're expected to say sorry for something we didnt do, if we're supposed to feel guilty .... then everybody should apologise" But all I guess you are saying is that you dont believe we should be saying sorry for something we didnt do. But you dont say why... Why, when we proudly answer to the call of Australia's successes, should we not humbly accept our failures?
If you have no answer apart from, "because you are not supposed to feel sorry for something we didnt do" then you simply have been brought up on the ideals that you are only responsible for yourself and that no matter who you associate with you should always be judged independantly. Well in an ideal world, Katie, that would be fine. But in a world with 6 billion people, generalisations are inevitable.
I'm sure you've heard the saying, "Go to bed with dogs and get up with fleas". Well thats the case here. If you want be an Australian and if that word, AUSTRALIAN, means anything at all, then you link yourself with AUSTRALIA, its past present and future. One cant simply take the best of something and leave the rest. One cannot have it all.
Simply not true. Aboriginals have it far worse off than the african americans do. Dont make me prove that. Just know that for a fact. And what a disastrous word use. "better than they treat their blacks". THEIR??? BLACKS??? please. Dont think me petty because i stopped you from using blacks to shorten African Americans. It was the use of the two words together that is the nasty bit. The African Americans are a large proportion of USA, the "blacks" are not OWNED, they exist.katie_tully said:
Unfortunately the only reason African Americans get it better off than aborigines in Australia is because if they didnt... America would have been destroyed. An entire black population of uneducated, alcoholic, petrol sniffing, violent youths? I think we would be hearing of mass killings if that was the case.
In Australia we can mroe succesfully ignore the plight of aborigines because of the very small minority that they have.
Now this next bit of hypocrisy and contradiction is amazing.
katie_tully said:
katie_tully said:
katie_tully said:
First you want unity, then you say keep culture. One or the other baby. You may think you can have both but read on, and i will explain the differences between these groups in society that prevents it from happening.katie_tully said:
Does it not occur to you, that if in fact these problems had been solved, then there would be no problem.katie_tully said:
OF COURSE THERE'S A PROBLEM. WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT IF NOT THE PROBLEM OF SEPERATION BETWEEN ABORIGINES AND OTHER AUSTRALIANS???
I could spurt off a thousand statistics to disprove "Aboriginals have health care and education". But no doubt you cant be that silly and mindless to believe that there is equality there.
One major point. People who live in crappy houses, no insulation, no pest control, little washing facilites, few hygiene facilities need BETTER healthcare than those that grow up in mansions with reverse-cycle air conditioning. Yet these people in fact get less access.
Let me tell you a little secret. Read this sentence carefully, twice over if you dare to fully understand it.
EQUAL TREATMENT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ON UNEQUAL LEVELS MERELY PERPETUATES THE INEQUALITY.
If two people, one rich and one poor, are given the same treatment, the rich one will increase his wealth faster than the poor one. By doing so, he increases the inequality at a faster and faster rate.
So believe me the problem is not solved, and wont be except by extra treatment for those who have it worse off to help them out of their position.
You cant unify a group of people who are on disastrously different economic, educational and health levels. This breeds discontent from those that are worse off. As a result we have clearly defined boundaries between social groups, not seperated because of race, colour or religion, but because of poverty. And because these people were all worse off, they experience greater poverty as a whole.
They are split through poverty, because their race was segregated.
No longer is racism the guiding force behind inequality, but poverty is the great unequaliser. This is because poverty maintains itself, even increases itself. Some may see the world as one divided by race, but it is only divided through poverty that came from the racist, divisionist policies of the past.
Lastly, i just want to correct your grammar, Aborigines is the noun. Aboriginal is the adjective. There is no such think Aboriginals. Aboriginal Kid; YES. Aboriginal; NO.
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