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Missionaries of Hate - a documentary on Uganda's anti-gay movement (1 Viewer)

Scorch

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Oh god, I don't understand your aversion to conservative Christianity, you'd be right at home in the most hateful, intolerant little corners of the church from the sounds of you.
Yes, sure. Throw idiotic phrases around, embarrass yourself suitably and then abandon the discussion when it actually turns to specific, factual assertions, as normal; rinse, repeat, etc.

Homosexual men are the only group which has an INCREASING HIV rate. I'm not proposing anything. I just stated it's not that illogical for a country battling HIV to outlaw a behavior which seems to encourage high rates of HIV.
Any such conclusions are derived from poor use of statistics and misconception; it is not scientific.
 

Lentern

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Yes, sure. Throw idiotic phrases around, embarrass yourself suitably and then abandon the discussion when it actually turns to specific, factual assertions, as normal; rinse, repeat, etc.
I have addressed every matter you have raised, you have time and time responded by repeating, your original statements, heaven forbid I decide at that point to let you wallow in your own repetition.
 

Scorch

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I have addressed every matter you have raised, you have time and time responded by repeating, your original statements, heaven forbid I decide at that point to let you wallow in your own repetition.
Sure. If you feel as though your rudimentary insults and complete and utter lack of understanding of the point I was making, taking issues on face value and blatant use of logical fallacy translates into 'addressing' a statement, then you sure showed me.
 

bazrah

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Yes, sure. Throw idiotic phrases around, embarrass yourself suitably and then abandon the discussion when it actually turns to specific, factual assertions, as normal; rinse, repeat, etc.



Any such conclusions are derived from poor use of statistics and misconception; it is not scientific.
Haha well not really. Uganda is one of the few African nations to successfully battle the HIV epidemic. The government went about implementing actions to stem the rate of infection. Abstinence, monogamous relationships, and use of condoms are encouraged. The U.S. statistics indicate that regardless of improvements in education and health care the HIV rate in MSM is still climbing steadily. I'm not supporting Uganda's stance or actions. I'm just saying it's really not that illogical to outlaw something which has been indicated as being a large outlet for spreading HIV among people. Especially, in a country that is one of the only African countries to successfully limit HIV rates to a degree.
 

Scorch

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Haha well not really. Uganda is one of the few African nations to successfully battle the HIV epidemic. The government went about implementing actions to stem the rate of infection. Abstinence, monogamous relationships, and use of condoms are encouraged. The U.S. statistics indicate that regardless of improvements in education and health care the HIV rate in MSM is still climbing steadily. I'm not supporting Uganda's stance or actions.
At this point you seem to be semi-rational. Education, social awareness, context, knowledge, these are all things that have served to limit the impact of such diseases in many countries are just as relevant in African countries as well; the problem is the objectivity of such education (many are funded by evangelical American Christian groups with agendas, bias and prejudice to burn - that's essentially what is responsible for this legislation) and the resources involved.

I'm just saying it's really not that illogical to outlaw something which has been indicated as being a large outlet for spreading HIV among people. Especially, in a country that is one of the only African countries to successfully limit HIV rates to a degree.
Again, statistics ought not to be taken at face value at any point, for they may be manipulated or misunderstood. Homosexuality is no more dangerous in the spread of HIV than regular intercourse or exchange of fluids, biologically. What you are doing is falling into the trap of reading into misleading statistics that do not accurately account for other factors.
 

cosmo kramer

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Haha no it's not ya dopey idiot.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/FastFacts-MSM-FINAL508COMP.pdf

You're just uninformed. Even really liberal, lefty countries still had bans on homosexual men giving blood in the last 5 years, because the HIV risk was just too high. These figures are for one of the most developed countries in the world. I wonder if the figures will be better in developing countries because I seriously doubt it.
hahahahaha look at how black people are only 3000 less white people despite being 12% of the population
 

Lukybear

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My uncles gay and hes had 3 partners his whole life time you incompetent fuck.
Yes your single uncle is an accurate and valid sample, representing the complete of the black/homosexual community.

Any such conclusions are derived from poor use of statistics and misconception; it is not scientific.
The guy quoted proper stats from the CDC. Props to him.
 

Lentern

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Sure. If you feel as though your rudimentary insults and complete and utter lack of understanding of the point I was making, taking issues on face value and blatant use of logical fallacy translates into 'addressing' a statement, then you sure showed me.
If there is anything I have said which you felt required further clarification you are welcome to ask for it (instead of just repeating your lines like a Rudd government minister) but please spare me the debating team breakdown of arguments, it makes you look a half educated spiv.
 

Scorch

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If there is anything I have said which you felt required further clarification you are welcome to ask for it (instead of just repeating your lines like a Rudd government minister) but please spare me the debating team breakdown of arguments, it makes you look a half educated spiv.
Quite frankly you're embarrassing yourself. Had you attempted to discuss with me I'd be happy to talk to you, but since your opening salvo was "You don't even believe in God so you can't even comment" and that's about the most coherent you got, I'll end this here. Until next time, I gleefully await. Have the last word if you wish, it means little to me; you've quite frankly ceased to be amusing and turned into a pathetic little embarrassment.
 

Lentern

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Quite frankly you're embarrassing yourself. Had you attempted to discuss with me I'd be happy to talk to you, but since your opening salvo was "You don't even believe in God so you can't even comment" and that's about the most coherent you got, I'll end this here. Until next time, I gleefully await. Have the last word if you wish, it means little to me; you've quite frankly ceased to be amusing and turned into a pathetic little embarrassment.
Weren't it you or one of your unholy lackeys who just the other week derided the whole "walk away, agree to disagree, we're never going to change the other" complex? I understand you think anyone who believes in God to be an embarrassment so that you now think I am embarrassing myself doesn't particularly bother me. I do have a problem with you verballing me as you just did, I never said an atheist can't comment I said one of your claims followed illogically from an atheistic base.
 

FlipX

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Even really liberal, lefty countries still had bans on homosexual men giving blood in the last 5 years, because the HIV risk was just too high.
There's currently a review by the Red Cross to examine whether that's still a valid form of screening, as the original ruling was from the early days of HIV in the '80s, when little was understood about how the disease was transmitted.

Today, it would make much more sense for screening to be done across the board on unsafe sexual practices, drug use, etc - which would free up the HIV-negative gay men who want to contribute to blood banks, which, let's face it, is always in serious need of more donors.

Doing a blanket screen based on sexuality alone seems illogical.

The country of Uganda has determined that homosexual activity is not beneficial to society as a whole. Seeing as homosexual men have the highest rates of HIV, it's not that illogical for a country battling HIV infection to outlaw something that seems to encourage the spread of HIV. That said I don't agree with laws against homosexuals at all.
My response is similar to above - what I find illogical is addressing an epidemic in terms of symptoms rather than causes. By relying on the rationale that HIV is somehow a "gay disease", it promotes unsafe sexual practices among straight folks and even leads to the prevalence of retarded myths - due to under-education of sexual health - such as that HIV can be cured by having sex with virgins. (Related link: BBC NEWS | Programmes | Correspondent | AIDS: A South African horror story)

On a related note, this law was less to do with HIV/AIDS than religious zealotry against a "threatening" Other. Same rhetoric that you see in our own backyard - this minority wants to subvert our society and destroy us all, etc, etc.

maybe you could do a short summary for the lazy among us?
See last paragraph, above.

The doco interviewed the pastor who is the most outspoken proponent of the anti-gay movement - this is the "eat da poo poo" guy who showed scat porn in church as a generalised representation of what homosexuality is. They also interview local gays and lesbians about the growing threats of state-sponsored violence and social ostracisation that they now face, as well as the American evangelists whose preachings in Uganda have helped to shape these negative public sentiments.

One of the more surprising things I found was that the most fervent and active proponents of the cultural shift has been college students, which are obviously a group that's typically more progressive on a lot of issues. The doco doesn't offer an explanation as to why these kids are being wooed by the anti-gay message, but maybe someone in the audience who understands African culture can help?
 

Scorch

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Weren't it you or one of your unholy lackeys who just the other week derided the whole "walk away, agree to disagree, we're never going to change the other" complex?
No, not that I know of. I'm not agreeing to disagree, but rather admitting that the cross-thread slinging match we've carried into here has distracted attention from the actual subject; it is meaningless at this point and I shall leave it till the next time we find ourselves in disagreement on a factual assertion to bring up our respective points.
 

Calculon

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If you don't think HIV has a higher rate of incidence in the homosexual community you're deluding yourself. In Australia 85% of HIV transmissions are through anal intercourse between two men [1], and it's clear to see why: anal sex has a much higher chance of passing on STIs, and when there's no fear of pregnancy you're likely to be a lot more lax with condom use. The whole thing creates a multiplier effect, same deal with intravenous drug users.
 

Tangent

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There's currently a review by the Red Cross to examine whether that's still a valid form of screening, as the original ruling was from the early days of HIV in the '80s, when little was understood about how the disease was transmitted.

Today, it would make much more sense for screening to be done across the board on unsafe sexual practices, drug use, etc - which would free up the HIV-negative gay men who want to contribute to blood banks, which, let's face it, is always in serious need of more donors.
By law they are supposed to screen all the blood they receive anyway.
I know quite a few people who wont give blood because of this discrimination. It really is a waste, and these regulations should be brought up to date.

My response is similar to above - what I find illogical is addressing an epidemic in terms of symptoms rather than causes. By relying on the rationale that HIV is somehow a "gay disease", it promotes unsafe sexual practices among straight folks and even leads to the prevalence of retarded myths - due to under-education of sexual health - such as that HIV can be cured by having sex with virgins. (Related link: BBC NEWS | Programmes | Correspondent | AIDS: A South African horror story)

On a related note, this law was less to do with HIV/AIDS than religious zealotry against a "threatening" Other. Same rhetoric that you see in our own backyard - this minority wants to subvert our society and destroy us all, etc, etc.



See last paragraph, above.

The doco interviewed the pastor who is the most outspoken proponent of the anti-gay movement - this is the "eat da poo poo" guy who showed scat porn in church as a generalised representation of what homosexuality is. They also interview local gays and lesbians about the growing threats of state-sponsored violence and social ostracisation that they now face, as well as the American evangelists whose preachings in Uganda have helped to shape these negative public sentiments.

One of the more surprising things I found was that the most fervent and active proponents of the cultural shift has been college students, which are obviously a group that's typically more progressive on a lot of issues. The doco doesn't offer an explanation as to why these kids are being wooed by the anti-gay message, but maybe someone in the audience who understands African culture can help?
If children see the death of people around them due to AIDS, and people tell them enough times, eventually it is going to sink in. They grow up, and are taught that homosexuals spread AIDS, and that homosexuality is evil, then of course they are going to be opposed to it.

I totally agree with your whole post, and I also agree with Scorch, that the only human way to oppose the spread of AIDS, without disregard to the right to life (the most fundamental human right), is through education-particularly sex ed. USE CONDOMS!

Hey, if you're a gay male in Uganda, why would you worry about wearing a condom if you're going to get shot afterwards anyway?
 

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