Muhammad Cartoon Controversy (2 Viewers)

[davin]

i'm gonna be pretty much agreeing with withoutaface here. Freedom of speech is that you have the FREEDOM to say something. Not that everyone else has to like it. If someone chooses to say something, anyone else can criticise that person as much as they'd like to.
my issue with the responce to the cartoons isn't that people are saying "well, taht was in bad taste, they shouldn't have run them" but that people are saying "you shouldn't be ALLOWED to say such things", and are rioting and burning embassies and threatening others with violence. the idea of free speech is that you can say anything you'd like, and you can criticise what you want. the key is that everyone is allowed that freedom, even if someone else might be offended

for that statement abotu women bringing rape on themselves, how many mosques were burned down during protests in responce to it?

 

[davin]

yes, but i am showing the differnce between the two messages.

i don't think that that statement was encouraging rape though.....its saying that women make themselves victims rather than saying that they deserve it or something.
and even though its a horribly sexist statement, so long as its not just calling for widespread rape, someone should be allowed to say taht

 

[tempco]

This physicaly hurts women who are rape victims.

Maybe as a result, but not directly.

making a caricature of a long dead person in noway hurts anyone.

You can't be serious?

Oh my god people, don't you understand that stating burning down embassies and holding people hostage is wrong over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

 

[mr_shittles]

All i would like to say is that alot of people in the world and here in Australia fail to understand the definition of "freedom of speech". If insulting 1.5 billion Muslims in the world can be classified as freedom of speech, by insulting the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h), then how come when a muslim makes a statement saying "women are partly responsible for being raped because they show too much skin which is a form of attracting and inviting the oppisite sex" is not classified as freedom of speech. And as a result this person was publicly humiliated by Australians and the media. Why didnt anyone think of freedom of speech then? Why the double standards?

When a muslim makes a statement saying "women are partly responsible for being raped because they show too much skin which is a form of attracting and inviting the oppisite sex" they are simply excercising their freedom of speech. There's nothing to say that making such a statement is illegal. In fact, those that have made the statement have used "freedom of speech" as their argument for exercising the right to say it.

I think that people show their true colours by using freedom of speech . . . you can see who the bad people are and who the decent people are. No decent person would need to show that their are defenders of free speech by publishing offensive cartoons.

 

[davin]

I think that people show their true colours by using freedom of speech . . . you can see who the bad people are and who the decent people are. No decent person would need to show that their are defenders of free speech by publishing offensive cartoons.

At this point, publishing the cartoons has significant merit as news as well, so its not even a question of supporting free speech or not.
Though free speech does tend to give a lot of insight into people....just because you can legally say something doesn't mean its neccessarily morally right, and you see a lot about their character.

 

[mazarina211]

ver, very, very true

 

[crazyturk213]

All this discussion about the cartoon's are just a waste of time. I'm a muslim myself, but i have to admit that the reaction that the muslim community brought forward was way overboard.... islam is a religion which doesnt promote violence.
Unofortunately muslims today have a short temper... the danish reporters rlly picked the wrong time a people to mess with.

My final words are dis to all the muslim students out there.... find no fault in others but urselves... we are the ones that brought this upon us. The problem isnt the Kafir.. its simply us... we cant even unite.

 

[M.I.A-187]

Islam is a religion that promote peace but some pplz just took it a bit far. Same with christianity, it promotes equality and peace but look at history it more like "join us or die".

Turk i have to agree with you.

 

[crazyturk213]

well the muslims u see on tv dat cause all that trouble are really narrow minded... theyre the ones dat have been brainwashed by "radical" islamic people. I wouldnt evn call them muslim, but thats upto god to decide. Muslims in the middle east are corrupt.... take other muslims as examples... such as turks,indonesians, pakistani's... theyre the disciplined ones... and are willing to communicate with other groups. All the violence u see are frm a few countries where religion is everything... they simply dont understand dat religion is just a way of life...

 

[ogmzergrush]

well the muslims u see on tv dat cause all that trouble are really narrow minded... theyre the ones dat have been brainwashed by "radical" islamic people. I wouldnt evn call them muslim, but thats upto god to decide. Muslims in the middle east are corrupt.... take other muslims as examples... such as turks,indonesians, pakistani's... theyre the disciplined ones... and are willing to communicate with other groups. All the violence u see are frm a few countries where religion is everything... they simply dont understand dat religion is just a way of life...

What is there to "everything" aside from a "way of life"?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Islam is a religion that promote peace but some pplz just took it a bit far. Same with christianity, it promotes equality and peace but look at history it more like "join us or die".

Turk i have to agree with you.

Ugh what I think people don't realise is that there is no 'pure christianity' - i.e. the idea that christianity promotes equality and peace is just wrong unless you decide to skip several books of the bible. IMO from reading the bible the inquisition was really (as the guy in 'the god who wasn't there' said) the perfect application of christianity.

 

[HotShot]

Ugh what I think people don't realise is that there is no 'pure christianity' - i.e. the idea that christianity promotes equality and peace is just wrong unless you decide to skip several books of the bible. IMO from reading the bible the inquisition was really (as the guy in 'the god who wasn't there' said) the perfect application of christianity.

i dont think there is a perfect application of any religion. anyhow, i think to say that reaction to the cartoon was "unpredictable" is just a sad excuse. Reactions like this happen all the time, like today, some jews put some graffiti on a mosque..etc. it happens, but ppl dont realise they can prevent it.

 

[davin]

i dont think there is a perfect application of any religion. anyhow, i think to say that reaction to the cartoon was "unpredictable" is just a sad excuse. Reactions like this happen all the time, like today, some jews put some graffiti on a mosque..etc. it happens, but ppl dont realise they can prevent it.

did you just act as though graffiti is on par with a riot that leads to burning buildings and clashes with police?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

i dont think there is a perfect application of any religion

That's because you can't even define your religion because you don't want to accept operational definitions of what a religion is because a) you're dogmatic and b) you don't appreciate how science works.

. anyhow, i think to say that reaction to the cartoon was "unpredictable" is just a sad excuse. Reactions like this happen all the time, like today, some jews put some graffiti on a mosque..etc. it happens, but ppl dont realise they can prevent it.

It was unpredictable and in fact there would not have been this reaction if it wasn't for some propagandists turning the cartoons into a bigger insult than they ever were.

 

[Enlightened_One]

Ugh what I think people don't realise is that there is no 'pure christianity' - i.e. the idea that christianity promotes equality and peace is just wrong unless you decide to skip several books of the bible. IMO from reading the bible the inquisition was really (as the guy in 'the god who wasn't there' said) the perfect application of christianity.

Strange how Christianity keeps turning up in this discussion. It seems to me that if the Bible was from God then it would be more of a general guide. Honestly, He would have expected the evolution of human society. Thus the fact that Christianity changes shows that it keeps up with modern times.
And if you don't hold with religion, go out and talk with some Christian people. I did. They all seem genuinely nice and decent people and they make me feel evil (because they are so damned good). Most of the ones I know work with charities and help people or otherwise just seem so positive that it's almost contagious. I haven't quite met one with as a funny a sense of humour as my non-religous dirty minded mates though.

Anyway, what I want to know, is why does Christianity keep being brought up? Christianity certainly had some disgusting acts done in it's name, but that was in past. We should be focussing on Islam, in this thread anyway, and diverting the question away from islam by focusing on the history of Christianity allows the real issues to be sidestepped and the real questions left unanswered.

These cartoons represent a chance for Islam to take a good, long look at itself.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It seems to me that if the Bible was from God then it would be more of a general guide. Honestly, He would have expected the evolution of human society. Thus the fact that Christianity changes shows that it keeps up with modern times.

So back when the inquisition was happening that was what god wanted and then he wanted the meaning to change to be more liberal now? Interesting theory, of course it can be right if you bring up god because you know... he's supernatural but it still seems to be quite a wild confabulation.

And if you don't hold with religion, go out and talk with some Christian people. I did. They all seem genuinely nice and decent people and they make me feel evil (because they are so damned good).

I went to highschool at a christian school, surounded by christians and attending chapel every week. Decent people are decent people... However these people while being nice often have beliefs which are illogical and lead them to do things / support things which lead us down a bad route - and this affects me in a negative way.

Anyway, what I want to know, is why does Christianity keep being brought up?

Christianity brings its self into our lives, I don't go out there picking fights with christianity - christianity pervades throughout our society and affects me whether I like it or not.

 

[HotShot]

That's because you can't even define your religion because you don't want to accept operational definitions of what a religion is because a) you're dogmatic and b) you don't appreciate how science works.

Hah, science.. of course i appreciate how science works. science rocks, but science doesnt necessarily go against religion. Science was created by us humans, if we didnt exist - this is gay i was saying way before that god doesnt exist and here i am saying that he does..lol..

anyway wrong thread.

it doesnt matter if it was on 'par', both incidents are wrong!

 

[davin]

science is a system of understanding the universe, but the stuff we're observing would be there if we were tehre or not. its simple observation.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Science was created by us humans

massive flaw.

 

[Enlightened_One]

So back when the inquisition was happening that was what god wanted and then he wanted the meaning to change to be more liberal now? Interesting theory, of course it can be right if you bring up god because you know... he's supernatural but it still seems to be quite a wild confabulation.



I went to highschool at a christian school, surounded by christians and attending chapel every week. Decent people are decent people... However these people while being nice often have beliefs which are illogical and lead them to do things / support things which lead us down a bad route - and this affects me in a negative way.



Christianity brings its self into our lives, I don't go out there picking fights with christianity - christianity pervades throughout our society and affects me whether I like it or not.

With point one I was actually trying to argue for something that wouldn't annoy theists or athiests so that I had a reason for the rest of the post. Put it this way: Bad things have been done in the name of Christianity, but it is in the past, let it stay there. Nearly all Chrisitians I've met are as I described them (actually I can't remember a single exception but there probably was one). I see Chrisitians doing a lot of good, I don't see that many doing bad.

I didn't go to a Christian school, I went to a government school and I can't say whether it is better than a Christian school but there were happenings that lead people down bad routes there. Secularism isn't going to create a perfect society. People who believe in nothing are more dangerous in some ways than people who believe in the illogical (exceptions to this are obvious). Our society seems to be going down the route where it worships capitalism, consumerism and selfishness to the demerit of everything else. Sad but true.

Oh, and there is something I heard that perhaps ought to be repeated. With regards to people at a Christian school: Our parents and our teachers think we're Christian and that's all there is to it.


Christianity might pervade into your life and annoy you and you have every right to try and denounce it. However, what I was actually asking was directed at our muslim posters and the other defenders of islam: Why, when this thread is about islam, is Christianity constantly bought up. It seems like a case of pointing the finger at someone else so that the accused is able to escape answering the questions.

There are other threads discussing religion that Christianity can be talked about on and if you want create a thread about comparing religions or whatever, but don't take the focus of islam when it faces a question it has no answer for by going off topic and forgetting the real, unanswered issues.


Sorry if I seem overzealous but I was just reading the letters in the Australian and some of them mentioned this cartoon fiasco and I'm pretty riled about the double standards going on and the apparent appeasement of islam to the detriment of Western ideals.