• Congratulations to the Class of 2024 on your results!
    Let us know how you went here
    Got a question about your uni preferences? Ask us here

National Studies HISTORIOGRAPHY (1 Viewer)

picaresque

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2003
Messages
155
Location
'the russian winters are endless...'
Gender
Female
HSC
2004
:D

The only proof you need that the HSC drives people mad.

And um (on topic) ... Historiography is important. I've been told that providing quotes can 'beef up' your argument ie. if you've written a fabulous essay that is definitely band 6, usage of well-chosen quotes can push you toward that full mark.
 

braindrainedAsh

Journalist
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
4,268
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2003
Originally posted by Alexander
Damn you people are toooo hardcore!
Honestly, if you ring the advice line, no matter who you get, they're so laidback.....you guys....damn! Next you'll be making sure the examiners have a good night's sleep and proper breakfeast, so they appreciate a tongue-in-cheek remark about Hitler's personality, or Haig's flaults at the Somme!
This forum is so stressfull---don't you have another 5 subjects as well???
tooo tooo stressfull *hyperventerlates*
I agree, I think we all need to take some deep breaths and calm down!!!! The dedication to modern history on this board is super and I'm sure everyone will do well!

About those other 5.... hang on for me it's another 6 on top of modern (7 if you count eng ex 2, but thank god it's over).... well.... they are really boring!
 

Benno

Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
528
Location
Nsw
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
umm, can u qoute out of the Modern hiostory excel?

how would u do it?
 

braindrainedAsh

Journalist
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
4,268
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2003
Originally posted by Benno
umm, can u qoute out of the Modern hiostory excel?

how would u do it?

Historian R. Ringer states that "blah blah"

I did it in my trial :) Found a nice quote in there about Hitler's use of terror.

A question about historiography... do they want us to quote historians or primary sources? I borrowed Caldwell's Indochina book from school today and in it the historiography sections contain primary sources... I thought that they wanted historians perspectives.... or is it a mixture of both?
 

tink 18

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
52
Location
north sydney
Historiographhy is the study of the writing of history, right? So that means we study how it is written by the historians (methodology), which is how they use their sources etc. In historiography you also look at a historians baises and personal perspective in their work. So (even though i dont do modern history, just ancient and exension) yes you should look at the different perspectives of the historians who write about the topic and if possible find out how their personal context could have possibly influenced what they have written. Some historians dont believe that we can be influenced by our personal context (objectivists) but i think, like the relativists that we are.

When it comes to answering a question you can present your own perspective aslong as you do support your conclusion with evidence (i.e sources)
To answer Ash's question, I think you should use both. Then you will have a contemporary view, report etc of "what really happened" and a modern historians interpretation of the evidence and the events that you are looking at and you can compare and contrast them.
 

emily

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Messages
142
Location
Sydney
um, my two cents - yeah, start off with (just example here!!) smith believes that hitler came to power due to the depression. he feels it helped by making the people of germany "look for a solution".

so you intergrate - be general and then shove in a quote later (i always end up making the quotes up coz i get the general feel for their argument but can never remember actual quotes!)

hope that helped!
 

leeraff

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2003
Messages
63
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
hello.

Quick question we did historiography become part of the syllabus? I mean when you refer to it are you just talking about historian facts or points of view, or is there another meaning? or another use for them?

thx =)
 

*10#

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2003
Messages
139
According to my teacher ( who apparently knows everything )
the majority of students do historiography really badly just chuck in some quotes from a historain into a paragraph

To do it well it has to have some connection correlation to the question of the paragraph you are writing about - obviously

You should discuss at least two positions like the traditional viewpoint followed by the revisionist. Quotes are used to explain the view of a historian but unless it is related to a wider historiographical discussion or compared or contrasted to other schools of thought its essentially a waste of time

an example on an essay bout totalitarian regime - Germany

Initially historians generally believed that the Third Reich was an effective totalitarian state, all opposition was crushed, the Nazis did not have to answer to anybody and Gleichshaltung was used to coordinate all aspects of life under Hitler. This was the case argued Joachim Fest *insert quotation*. However after new evidence had come to light revisionist historians began to question the extent to which the Third Reich was a totalitarian regime. Martin Broszat argued that despite the imposition of legal terror opposition still remained and that Hitler was a lazy and wek leader not all powerful. Blah shit blah

hope this is remotely helpful

ppl really dont get too obsessed with historiography just know two different perspectives for a couple of different debates and hope that the question allows you to show of all your knowledge!

i dont find this forum stressful its actually motivating to see all the commitment makes me wanna actually do some study
 

HannieStar

Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
116
Location
Sydney
"the senior marker this year for indochina is cantwell. if any qns arise bout historians then he is asked. he knows a lot on indochina...he did a phd in it. therefore if u use good historians then it is going to make u look good."

I think Cantwell writes a textbook for HSC- my friend has it I am sure. The reason why I bring this up is that if Cantwell is so great, why is McCallum crap?
 

HannieStar

Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
116
Location
Sydney
Hey guys:)

About quoting Excel- I called HSC Advice line, they said not to do it because they are stating facts from other historians without sourcing them. The lady said it is better to use McCallum, Martin Lacey etc- the texts from school

If you have the time, go to the library and read up on:
Mary Fulbrook
James Joll
Eric Hobsbawm
Abba Eban
Any of Lisa Pine's artciles on the net

Good luck:):)

V. V. useful:)
 

Jennibeans

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
217
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2004
excellent idea to post historiography as well
I have found it useful not to try to memorise the historian's quotes - paraphrase!!

Historiography - WW1

L.C.E Turner: the original Schlieffan Plan (i.e. before General von Moltke modified it) would have been more successful than the modified version & these modifications doomed germany from the start.

A Palmer: The Schlieffan Plan would never have succeeded

John Terraine: the Allied victory was a result of the moral effect of the US army rather than their actual battles, the morale collape within the German army, recuperation & renewed strength of British (allowed for by US backup) & Haig's persistance.

Basil Liddell Hart: (on victory) you can't just look at the last weeks of war, consider also the role of the British naval blockade, propaganda and the fact that Ludendorff cracked due to allied success & demanded an armistice

I'm working through some historiography from Christopher Condon's WW1 lecture. Will post any good quotes
 

Ziff

Active Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Messages
2,366
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
For Haig:

Terraine, Gervase Phillips, John Buchanan, Duff Cooper, Ian Malcolm Brown are all pro-Haig historians. They mostly attribute his failings to his background and overall reckon he did a decent job. Some quotes:

patience, sobriety, balance of temper and unshakeable fortitude (Historian: John Buchan) - He believed that Haig's military upbringing gave him these useful and necessary virtues that Haig used well in the face of war.

presided over the integration of entirely new weapons technologies, chemical, aerial and armoured, into the BEF's tactical system (Historian: Gervase Phillips) - Attibuted the success of the final 1918 campaign to Haig [not Foch] for finally bringing together and integrating new tactics and technologies.

impose an inflexible procedure as compensation for lack of training (Historian: John Terraine) - Terraine says [along with other things] that Haig found it necessary to use an inflexible training procedure because this was the only possible way they could train the conscripted men upto battlefield standards.

Duff Cooper (Official British War Historian) explains that to have refused to fight then and there would have meant the abandonment of Verdun to its fate and the breakdown of the co-operation with the French... - Reasons for why the Battle of the Somme was brought forward from August to July.

Ian Malcolm Brown praised Haig for his excellent administrative and transport systems.

---
Personally, I thought Haig was an utter douche, however, I wrote a very polemic essay that was pro-Haig simply to piss my teacher off because it seemed like a good idea at the time :pIt wasn't an assessment task anyway.

Finding anti-Haig and anti-British General historians is very easy, such as, Denis Winter and John Laffin.
 

clerisy

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Messages
256
Gender
Female
HSC
2004
More Haig quotes:

"From beginning to end his handling of Third Ypres betokened an obstinacy of statuesque proportions"-- Norman F Dixon (On Haig's inability to adapt to circumstances-- esp in a war so different from those ever fought before)

"Haig ordered many bloody battles in this war. He only took part in two. He never even saw the ground on which his greatest battles were fought..." -- Lloyd George in his memoirs

"Haig lacked the intellectual power- or genius- to handle so mighty a weapon as his army with any degree of subtlety." -- Barrie Pitt [quoted in John Laffin, 'British Butchers and Bunglers of WWI]


Dammit! Just realised I'm missing 'Neighbours'! Ill put more up at a later date!....
 

ameh

dirty trick
Joined
Oct 21, 2003
Messages
2,688
Location
The Ludovico Centre
Gender
Female
HSC
N/A
Originally posted by poowee
Germany- Volkgemeinschaft
Hitlers new social order contained in Volksgemeinschaft was, in many respects, merely a propaganda gimmick. In reality, deep social divisions and sources of serious discontent remained scarcely concealed by the propaganda image and were countered by severe repression. -Jenkins

this quote sounds so usefull...pity it is a wrong intrepetrations to call volks. a gimmix....yeah he knows what he is doing.

there was a large popualr concenus amoungst germany towards the nazis..very limited opoaition.

volks. was very popular as well...egg streght throuhg joy ect.

volks. is a process that actually happend

GET UR FCTS RIGHT BEFORE U WASTE OTHER SPACE ON THIS FORUM AND READ MATERIAL U SUCK AT HISTORY GO AND MAKE UP SOME QUOTE LIKE THE ONE ABOVE MABYE THEN U MIGHT FIND A FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

stop wasting post space, i had to scroll down heaps just to see ur useless babble
 

Tlais

New Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2003
Messages
2
Gender
Male
HSC
2004
Germany

Theres one thing I always learnt in history, and that is that there is no right or wrong answer. The reason being is that the content of History, let it be an event, political crisis, etc, is derived by historians and their medians, such as tv, radio etc. And since man is full of prejudices and bias, one will find many differing perspectives when writting on the same topic eg Volksgemeinschaft. Thus, this fact leaves us students to develop the divergent opinions in evaluating an historical enquiry. So, to say that someone "sucks" in history is really an unintelligent comment.

In regards to Volksgemeinschaft, I believe that Germany and its people pursued this policy faithfull for a variety of reasons. The reasons are

a) Germans lacked faith in a "democratic" government
b) Many Germans wanted a nationalist and right orientated government.
c) Volks.. provided many jobs and prosperity for ordinary Germans

Now, to counter this argument, one could say that Germany are a race who always "obey", and so are less inclined to rebel or make vigorous protests. Also, one could say that the Nazi party in the Reichstag only recieved 43% of the votes (i think) and therefore were not a majority. Thus, many people opposed Hitler, but due to their "obeying" culture, were reluctant to resist the Nazis. These arguments can be surmised in Jenkins, Bullock and Carr.

Good luck, and email me Mahmoudtlais@yahoo.com if you want some very in-depth and comprehensive notes on WW1, Germany and Leni. Good luck, i need it as well. :)
 

Ziff

Active Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2003
Messages
2,366
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Dude, that's basically the essence of Historigraphy...

That the events and all that are scientific fact and can be proven that they occurred, but, the interpretation of what impact it had on future events is where the art side of it comes from and that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways...
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top