Organisation of ideas (1 Viewer)

[Trebla]

Hi guys,
I'm wondering whether I should use the "text by text" or "ideas by ideas" (pardon the given names/labels) approach in the AOS section III. I've normally used the "text by text" approach where I utilise the texts as different ideas (i.e. each text represents one aspect/idea of the thesis e.g. text one = assumptions, text two = challenges etc). I've used this approach mainly because I've been taught this way at school and I have got pretty good marks/ranks using it. Also, so far I've never seen a high range or exemplar response (published by BOS) which uses the "ideas by ideas" approach.
However, I've noticed some people in this forum advise (sometimes rather imperatively) the "ideas by ideas" approach. I know how to do it and how it works, though I wonder if that serves any benefit in satisfying the marking criteria.
Also, if there's anyone who scored a HSC mark around mid 90s in English what approach did you use?

 

[dagwoman]

Your school has told you to go tex by text, you're doing well that way. Why change when you're less than 2 weeks away?

I think you can write a successful essay either way. If you're happy with how you've gone with text by text there's no need to change.

PS. I'm doing it text by text

 

[Trebla]

It's just that some people in this forum say that you'd get even better marks using the other way. (plus I could easily change styles if I need to since I got all the ideas ready)

 

[glitterfairy]

Whilst it's true that text-by-text responses can and have scored band 6's, many band 6 responses go by ideas (how many examplars did you look at? Don't just look at one year). Most HIGH band 6 responses will go by ideas. In Engligh Ext 1, you more or less have to go by ideas if you even want to get a top band (because this is the most effective way to answer the question). Once you hit uni, "by ideas" is the norm and it's more or less utter suicide to go by text. So from this, we can kind of assume that the point of HSC english is to either teach you to go by concepts, or provide you with a stepping stone to eventually be able to write essays by ideas.

One of my issues with text by text responses is that often there is a lot of repeating that goes on. For example:

text by text example 1

* topic 1 - In BNW blahblahlah
* topic 1 - in BR blahblahblah

* topic 2 - in BNW blahblahblah
* topic 2 - in BR blahblahblah

text by text example 2

* topic 1 in BNW blahblahblah
* topic 2 in BNW blahblahblah

* topic 1 in BR blahblahblah
* topic 2 in BR blahblahblah

Whereas in a "paragraphs by concept" format, you waste less time and get to jump to the good stuff.

by ideas example 1

* topic 1
- in BNW blahblahblah
- in BR blahblahblah

*topic 2
- in BNW blahblahblah
- in BR blahblahblah


So let's look at why by ideas is better. We've already pointed out that it wastes less time, because you don't have to repeat yourself. Another point to consider is that it's easy to go into unequal levels of depth between texts when you go by text. If you're forced to continually juggle the two at the same time, it's a lot easier to ensure you've giving an equal amount of time and analysis to each text.

Additionally, presenting an argument (and really, this is what an essay is) is ALWAYS more effective when you go by ideas. It's more sophisticated. It's more clear. It's more concrete. Isn't that what the marking guidelines ask for? Surely they won't give the same mark to two different essays where one has good content but doesn't integrate texts, whilst the other has equally good content but synthesises between texts. Case in point:

"by text"
Sue: Hey John I want to tell you about this awesome new movie I just saw - it's got Brad Pitt in it and it's about the War on Terror. I think it's going to be a hit!
Oh and John, I also want to tell you about this other awesome new movie I just saw. It's also got Brad Pitt in it, and it's also about the War on Terror. I think it's going to be a hit too!

"by ideas"
Sue: Hey John, I believe that any movie with Brad Pitt in it that's about the War on Terror is an instant success. For example, I watched one movie last week with both those elements in it, and another one with the same elements a few days later. Both were awesome.

Now, you can replace "Brad Pitt" for any given moral value and replace "War on Terror" with any given literary technique, but hopefully my point is clear. There's a damn good reason a lot of post-HSC people tell you to structure your essay paragraphs "by ideas", even though it's a bit harder and requires you to have a more solid, working grasp of your texts.

Now by all means, if you don't know how to go by ideas and it's only a week before the HSC exam, then stick to what you know best. But if you have the option, go by ideas.

 

[Trebla]

One of my issues with text by text responses is that often there is a lot of repeating that goes on. For example:

text by text example 1

* topic 1 - In BNW blahblahlah
* topic 1 - in BR blahblahblah

* topic 2 - in BNW blahblahblah
* topic 2 - in BR blahblahblah

text by text example 2

* topic 1 in BNW blahblahblah
* topic 2 in BNW blahblahblah

* topic 1 in BR blahblahblah
* topic 2 in BR blahblahblah

None of these examples describe the way that I structure my ideas seeing how my theses are generally extensive. What I do is use the texts as ideas utilising the central viewpoint or idea (or a particular one) from the text as support for one part of the thesis. Also, I'm specifically referring to the AOS Section III where there's like 3-4 texts to deal with. E.g.
Thesis contains topics 1 + 2 + 3 + 4

* topic 1 in Text one

* topic 2 in Text two

* topic 3 in Text three

* topic 4 in Text four

 

[Ennaybur]

doesnt really seem like good linking to me. and from what i've heard, linking is all the go.

 

[dagwoman]

"Most HIGH band 6 responses will go by ideas."

HUGE generalisation.

As for the starter of this thread, you're an idiot if you're listening to random BOS members over your English teacher for essay structure advice. So long as you make links between the texts, you'll be sweet.

 

[dagwoman]

Also, I'm referring PURELY to AOS, not modules, as this is where the thread is.

The module on comparing texts (I'm doing Emma/Clueless), however, I'm doing "idea by idea", as that's the whole point of the module.

 

[Ennaybur]

my eng teacher is a hsc marker and tells us heavily to go by ideas. the head teacher of eng in our skl is about to become a som and also reccomends ideas.

so its not just some 'random BOS member'. furthermore that isnt a 'HUGE generalisation.' you'll find if you read the best ones.

'you're an idiot if you're listening to random BOS members'

 

[Trebla]

doesnt really seem like good linking to me. and from what i've heard, linking is all the go.

Linking is nowhere near a major part of the marking criteria. It is not as important as say exploring the journey concept perceptively. Besides, the way I do it, all the "topics" build on each other (e.g. with obstacles comes challenges etc) so links between texts can easily be made.
I don't know what others using the text by text approach do or what you think they do, but that's the way I structure my essay. In an interpretative way you could say it's a bit of both approaches lol.

 

[glitterfairy]

my eng teacher is a hsc marker and tells us heavily to go by ideas. the head teacher of eng in our skl is about to become a som and also reccomends ideas.

so its not just some 'random BOS member'. furthermore that isnt a 'HUGE generalisation.' you'll find if you read the best ones.

'you're an idiot if you're listening to random BOS members'

My english teacher was/is a Senior HSC Marker (read: the guy that tells other markers what to look for). I'm all for listening to what your teachers tell you to do, but in my opinion a smart student keeps enough of an open mind to consider what other schools are teaching and why. Every single english HSC marker at my school (yup, that's more than one) would go on and on and on and on about the importance of integrating texts. Every other english HSC marker, HSC english tutor and so forth has also gone on and on about the importance of integrating texts. I'm noticing a trend. Are you?

Whilst I have a high respect for teachers, they all have their strengths and weaknesses (not to mention particular bias, eg in the 'Telling the Truth' module in Eng Adv). My science teacher in Yr 8 was awesome fun but spent more time telling jokes and less time going over content thoroughly. My english teacher in Yr 9 taught strong essay structure but didn't spend enough time teaching us how to avoid regurgitating the plot rather than actually "saying" something. And so on. By all means follow your teacher's example, but don't follow blindly. If a bunch of people are disagreeing with what you've been taught, try and come to a logical/informed rebuttal as opposed to "my teacher says to do otherwise".




I still stand by "if you can go by ideas (and then analysing that idea in relation to multiple texts)" go for it. If it was a matter of picking which method was most appropriate to the essay question or texts being covered, you'd see a pattern of variety between Eng AOS, Eng Adv, EE1 and EE2 Critical Responses. The fact that there isn't indicates that "going by ideas" might be done for a reason, ie it's a more effective method of critical evaluation.

None of these examples describe the way that I structure my ideas seeing how my theses are generally extensive. What I do is use the texts as ideas utilising the central viewpoint or idea (or a particular one) from the text as support for one part of the thesis. Also, I'm specifically referring to the AOS Section III where there's like 3-4 texts to deal with. E.g.
Thesis contains topics 1 + 2 + 3 + 4

* topic 1 in Text one

* topic 2 in Text two

* topic 3 in Text three

* topic 4 in Text four

What concerns me by this essay format is that it doesn't appear that you analyse "topic 1" as thoroughly in texts 2,3 and 4 as you do in the first one. It's no point coming up with good ideas if you're not going to analyse them equally from the perspective of all the texts you're supposed to be covering.

An "extensive" thesis isn't as useful as a thorough analysis of all your texts in relation to your essay response/argument. You want to make sure that what you say is substantial, but it MUST be backed by examples from the textS. Supporting a claim from just one text rather than 2 or 3 doesn't tell a marker that you have an 'extensive thesis', it just tells them that you didn't bother to look at that idea from the perspective of your other texts as well.


If they wanted to hear what you had to say about the journeys concept, they wouldn't ask to you "Respond in relation to x texts".

* as soon as my friend finishes transferring various hsc documents to me (my computer isn't accepting pdf's at the moment) I'll back up my claims with notes from the Board so I don't appear to be some random BOSmember spouting claims out of nowhere.

EDIT: Here we go. These are from the "2005 HSC Notes from the Marking Centre English Standard/Advanced" (ie the Eng AOS exam), which is avaliable from the Board of Studies website.

"Highly developed responses demonstrated a sophisticated control of language, expression and
spelling in an integrated and logical structure."

"Upper range responses successfully related their texts to each other, reflecting both a conceptual
understanding and technical analysis, resulting in an insightful and sophisticated evaluation."

"Better responses demonstrated the ability to synthesise a critical
understanding of the relationships between the texts..."

 

[shinji]

hmm im just curious as to if my essay structures seem to be 'text by text'

this is how i structure my essays in all essays.

Intro with thesis introing texts

Concept 1
- text 1
- text 2
- text 3
- text 4

concept 2
- text 1
- text 2
- text 3
- text 4

concept 3
- text 1
- text 2
- text 3
- text 4

conclusion / reflection


of course i make links .. but it's kinda general. =/

 

[glitterfairy]

^ that's going by concepts, dear

If it were by text it'd be framed the opposite way around

ie

Text 1
- concept 1

and so forth



EDIT: Just to add to what I said in my previous post, here's a cut and paste from the performance band descriptions from the Board of Studies website (many of you have been given a printout of this by your teacher, I imagine)

Band 6 demonstrates extensive, detailed knowledge, insightful understanding and sophisticated evaluation of the ways meanings are shaped and changed by context, medium of production and the influences that produce different responses to texts.

displays a highly developed ability to describe and analyse a broad range of language forms, features and structures of texts and explain the ways these shape meaning and influence responses in a variety of texts and contexts.

presents a critical, refined personal response showing highly developed skills in interpretation, analysis, synthesis and evaluation of texts and textual detail.

exhibits an ability to compose imaginatively, interpretively and critically with sustained precision, flair, originality and sophistication for a variety of audiences, purposes and contexts in order to explore and communicate ideas, information and values.

Band 5 demonstrates detailed knowledge, perceptive understanding and effective evaluation of the ways meanings are shaped and changed by context, medium of production and the influences that produce different responses to texts.

displays a well developed ability to describe and analyse a broad range of language forms, features and structures of texts and explain the ways these shape meaning and influence responses in a variety of texts and contexts.

presents a critical personal response showing well developed skills in interpretation, analysis, synthesis and evaluation of texts and textual detail.

exhibits an ability to compose imaginatively, interpretively and critically with flair, originality and control for a variety of audiences, purposes and contexts in order to explore and communicate ideas, information and values.

Sorry guys. Looks like synthesis IS on the major marking guidelines after all.

 

[shinji]

thanks for that info glitterfairy!
and for ur confirmation that my structure is concept based.

muchly appreciated

 

[glitterfairy]

no worries

Best wishes with you working on making links better Take a few moments away from your notes one day and just think about possible links

 

[hopeles5ly]

Just a question, are you meant to link the similarties/differences between the content of your texts, or show a link between concepts of your texts in relation to your thesis? I do both at the moment, but i seem to focus more on the former. Also i'm not really sure on my structure. I go text by text focusing primarily on on one theme throughout my essay. To show linking, everytime i make a point about something which is in relation to my prescribed text or whatever, i mention the similarties/differences. I do that consistently throughout, but it seems kind of messy. Is there anything wrong with the method?

 

[glitterfairy]

*yawns and stretches* ahhh I've had a good night's sleep, what about everyone else


The general gist of an essay is that you answer a question (your "thesis") and you support it by examples from your texts.

* If concepts/themes raised in your texts are relevant to your argument (they likely will be), then you bring them up.

* One of my issues with text-by-text essay structures is that there is a large tendancy for people to repeat themselves. This isn't to say you can't do a good essay in text-by-text format, but it is harder and you need to really sit down and think for a few minutes about how you're going to word things so that you don't repeat yourself before you actually dive into your essay.

To show linking, everytime i make a point about something which is in relation to my prescribed text or whatever, i mention the similarties/differences.

If you mean something like "IN My Place, blahblahblah. Similarly in Journey to the Interior, blahblahblah. This is also seen in ______ where blahblahblah", that's more or less going by ideas. If you're getting freaked out by the sheer amount of texts you have to juggle (ie four), then this is normal, everyone feels the same way, and you'll get more comfortable with it as time goes by.

However if you're only linking to one text at a time, for example: "In My Place, blahblahblah which is also seen in Journey to the Interior blahblahblah. Also in My Place, the use of ______ is used to blahblahblah. Similarly in ______ blahblahblahblah. My Place also employs the use of blahblahblah, however in contrast ________ uses blahblahblahblah" <-- keeps going back to "My Place"

^ this is much better than doing no linking at all. Probably all I could suggest here is to make the transitions as smooth as possible and to try and "shorten" any repetitions eg "the use of ___ has already been mentioned but in addition to this the composer has blahblahblah with the intent of blahblahblah". (repetitions waste time, so it's good to try and find ways around this)

At this stage - unless you miraculously have a choice in what to do - it's best to concentrate on making whatever you're already doing look as good as it can.

 

[hopeles5ly]

*yawns and stretches* ahhh I've had a good night's sleep, what about everyone else


The general gist of an essay is that you answer a question (your "thesis") and you support it by examples from your texts.

* If concepts/themes raised in your texts are relevant to your argument (they likely will be), then you bring them up.

* One of my issues with text-by-text essay structures is that there is a large tendancy for people to repeat themselves. This isn't to say you can't do a good essay in text-by-text format, but it is harder and you need to really sit down and think for a few minutes about how you're going to word things so that you don't repeat yourself before you actually dive into your essay.



If you mean something like "IN My Place, blahblahblah. Similarly in Journey to the Interior, blahblahblah. This is also seen in ______ where blahblahblah", that's more or less going by ideas. If you're getting freaked out by the sheer amount of texts you have to juggle (ie four), then this is normal, everyone feels the same way, and you'll get more comfortable with it as time goes by.

However if you're only linking to one text at a time, for example: "In My Place, blahblahblah which is also seen in Journey to the Interior blahblahblah. Also in My Place, the use of ______ is used to blahblahblah. Similarly in ______ blahblahblahblah. My Place also employs the use of blahblahblah, however in contrast ________ uses blahblahblahblah" <-- keeps going back to "My Place"

^ this is much better than doing no linking at all. Probably all I could suggest here is to make the transitions as smooth as possible and to try and "shorten" any repetitions eg "the use of ___ has already been mentioned but in addition to this the composer has blahblahblah with the intent of blahblahblah". (repetitions waste time, so it's good to try and find ways around this)

At this stage - unless you miraculously have a choice in what to do - it's best to concentrate on making whatever you're already doing look as good as it can.

Thanks a lot! i feel a lot more reassured