mei ling, you need to read my response, and your own, a few times before you post, because you contradicted yourself. Look:
Originally posted by mei_ling03
God CAN write down a set of statements that predetermine our lives but does not as this would clearly contradict the gift of free will to humans. the fact that he CAN intervene does not prove anything.
How on earth do you know he doesn't write down these statements? Are you omniscient? Are you implying (even though you said he can) that he really CAN'T write them down and is bound by his decisions? Because the point is that he CAN and that proves that life is predetermined if you believe in an omniscient God (you are not understanding this are you? Your argument that he doesn't write it down therefore we have free will is irrelevant). The fact that he CAN (ie there is the possibility, which you agree to), shows that our life is already mapped out, and there is NO way we can deviate from it whatsoever, otherwise God would be wrong or not omniscient. If we cannot deviate from this plan in ANY way please tell me in what way do we have any free will at all, and not just 'feel like' we have free will.
Think about it some more -if God wrote that list (which he CAN), he could post it down here on earth somewhere, even somewhere you could read. You could not do ANYTHING at all to deviate from this list, even if you tried to go against it, you couldn't (otherwise God would be wrong or not omniscient). Doesn't this show you that we have no free will if we have an omniscient God? (Since you have already conceded that he CAN write such a list).
Originally posted by mei_ling03
It is, however, known that God does know the path that we will take - a path that we ourselves will choose - he does not himself write our lives, only decides at the end whether we have passed the test of life and if we should pass the pearly gates... the only thing here that i feel could be argued is that we have already determined our own paths and are moving through it, even though we don't know it..
no offence but again you are missing my point. If God KNOWS the path we will take, then WE cannot choose it obviously -it would simply FEEL like we were choosing it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to deviate from what God KNOWS will happen in our lives, and if it is impossible to make a choice free from what God knows we will do, how can you say we have free will?
I'll keep going with this, but just try to read it a few times, as the argument I'm putting forward (i think) is pretty clear, and it doesn't seem like you're not understanding it.
Originally posted by mei_ling03
this brings us back to the story of Lucifer after the war in Heaven when he was cast out. God said to him that He has created the world and the population of men and that during man's existence on earth, he may try to sway these men (men = humankind) into doing evil. God COULD have given man the choice of only two goods (which still doesn't make too much sense to me) but has instead given us the choice between good and evil.
Did you even read my post? The above (from you)
clearly shows that you are implying that God is either NOT omnipotent (all powerful) or not wholly good as He either:
1.Had to give the Devil power (which challenges God's omnipotence), or
2.Chose to give the Devil power (which challenges God being wholly good).
And further to that, you wrote that God gave us the choice between evil and good, not two goods -this has been written plenty of times, at least add something to it. How about explaining WHY evil HAS to exist? And WHY God made evil exist? I already wrote all those counters against why people typically say God allowed evil to exist or created evil. Have a read of them, and
tell me WHY God made evil exist when he didn't have to.
Originally posted by mei_ling03
as for the argument that God has been subjected to some 'causal law', therefore disproving his omnipotence - can not the driving force come from within himself rather than being an external force?
There was no argument as such that God has been subjected to some causal law, it was a counter -ie in case someone was going to say that evil was a means to good.
What do you mean by driving force coming from within him rather than an external force? Can you clarify that thanks.
Originally posted by mei_ling03
the test is not for God but for us. it is a test that decides whether we are worthy to be accepted in Heaven or not. of course God knows whether we will or will not. we are merely living out the paths that we will have carved out for ourselves. he knows our choices yet does not intervene.
First off, if God
knows all this from before, you are saying that he knows some people will be condemned to hell for a committing a certain amount of evil (which he created) acts, and yet these people are still allowed to live out their life, and then go off to Hell, whilst others go to Heaven? How does this show a wholly good God? Doesn't God love everyone equally? If so, why does there
have to be hell. Surely we are all his creation anyway, and evil is something He created, so why would some people be subjected to endless torture in hell due to this -wouldn't a wholly good and omnipotent God use his powers to either
1. Save the person from going to hell (otherwise not wholly good),
or
2. Not have created hell in the first place (as it places limits on his omnipotence if he HAD to create evil, and HAD to create hell -an omnipotent God never has to do anything -it is all His choosing).
Originally posted by mei_ling03
God has never binded himself from interfering with natural disasters, rather, he refrains from it. the last time God had interfered was Noah's Ark. also you have to remember that with such 'disasters' also come new life. i won't even try to explain why some people die and some don't. Those are decisions that are to be left only to God.
OK so you are implying that he is not wholly good then. If he has the power to intervene in natural disasters (as you said he did), yet CHOOSES not too, he cannot be a wholly good being. Think about it.
The 'new life' argument from a natural disaster is pretty poor -it seems like you're grabbing at straws to try to justify such a disaster of mass-scale and show that some good comes out of it when God does not intervene. I don't think it's very comforting knowing that a few organisms ("new life") may grow out of the wreck caused by a natural disaster that killed hundreds or thousands of people. The 'new life' argument also proposes that life after the disaster is better than life before (otherwise why would an all-powerful, wholly good God allow it?). I'm sure the families of the thousands who died would disagree that life is better after it (and it is clearly an event that an all-powerful and wholly good being could and
would have prevented).
Originally posted by mei_ling03
i'm sure, this has been heard a million times before but i will say it again: if God is to be almighty, righteous, etc.. who are we to try to comprehend Him, to summarise his power and choices in a paragraph? The only way that would be possible would be to disprove his existence - somethinbg that may never be done. the only thing you do is limit yourself.
Yeh, that's been said a million times, often by people who can't/won't argue about God, or who may have a poor understanding of Him.
Who are WE to try to comprehend him? Presumably WE are his people mei ling, who He created. Christians are meant to be in a loving bond with God, and to love him intimately. I'm sure you would like to have knowledge about the being who you believe is responsible ultimately for your life, a being that you not only love intimately, but trust wholly, through your faith.
And would you mind explaining what exactly we are limiting on ourselves by trying to seek a fuller understanding of God?
Originally posted by natstar
what kinda of careers whould philosophy lead too? Being a philosopher ????? Mm Sounds interesting.
The majority of philosophy jobs are in academia -professors, lecturers etc. Some philosophers, however, manage to make it in the private sector as consultants (they'd be great for lateral thinking I'd assume!), and make a lot of money. But there are few
people who manage that. I think most philosophy students at uni just take it cos it feels mind-expanding and interesting!
