Poetry is stupid (1 Viewer)

[live.fast]

I just finished learning about T.S Eliot (if that's how ya spell his name) and seriously, his poetry just...sucks.

Really, I mean, if he's trying to make a point, why doesnt he just make it, instead of going round and about through all these weird allusions and poetic stuff....

And poetry in general...its just stupid
ESPECIALLY if it's even closely similair to 'The Hollow Men' - I mean, anyone could write anything, and be a reaallly crappy poet, but everyone else would try and draw some deep meaning from it, and because it would have been written bad, the meaning would have been harder to draw from it - so a bad poet might seem like an awesome one to all these over-analysts

- and even then, the meaning drawn is allowed to be subjective too, where you draw your own meaning from the poetry, and with really ambigiuous natured poetry, its like them stupid fortune readings that 'psychics' give you - you're bound to draw some 'meaning' from it, even if its not the intended one - but you don't know what the intended meaning might have been, so this might make a crappy poem seem better than it is -

Therefore, Poetry = Stupid

 

[sleepplease]

i think you're missing the meaning of poetry.. i agree to a certain extent that it's hard to define poetry as "good" or "bad".. more you need to find someting that connects with you, but when you do...
Poetry comes down to the fact that every emotion you feel has been felt by another human before because feelings are old and that core emotion never changes. Poetry is a way of expressing feeling, emotion, of connecting with another human being. Poetry has the power to move people because they can see themselves within the writing, they can feel what the writer is feeling - even ifthe poem was written by an author 100 years ago on teh other side of the world. People seek comfort from poetry, they seek inspiration - because it is amazing to know that everything you feel has been felt before, will be felt again. Poetry tells people that they are never alone. Its beautiful.

 

[live.fast]

I think you're right about me missing the meaning of poetry...but that might be because the poet's try to make it so hard to realize what the bloody meaning is...i'll give you an example -

The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms


In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river


Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

- tell me what you make of that first, yeah? I mean no offense, I've read some poetry, the kind that rhymes, and I think that people think you can only find deep meaning in really ambiguous, strange poetry, kind of like how people think the deepest meaning in art comes from abstract art - in both cases, it's too easy to make something 'deep' because the meaning drawn can be anything, especially for weird poems like this, or weird abstract art that seriously isn't real bloody art.

 

[passion89]

Poetry can be extremely moving, however some are shithouse lol
If you have to deconstruct the latter, then pretend you know what you're doing, concentrate and just do your best. When you like the poetry you're doing, even better!

 

[SoulSearcher]

What's with the rage against poetry live.fast?
btw Welcome to BoS

 

[Ennaybur]

shut up. hollow men >live.fast

 

[sleepplease]

Sightless, unless
The eyes reappear
As the perpetual star
Multifoliate rose
Of death's twilight kingdom
The hope only
Of empty men.

^^^ oh come on! don't tell me you don't feel anything when you read that.. you don't need to understand every word to feel what the poem is telling you - talking of lonliness, of human solitude, or emptiness.. the concept of people who exist only as "shells" - "empty beings" .. that's beautiful!!!!!!!

 

[A l]

Remember that poetry is not there just for analysing, it is there for enjoyment. It is one way of expressing meaning and delving into one's emotions with very few words.
Obviously, not everyone will appreciate poetry. Why? Well, because of the social, political and cultural context that you are in as a responder. This also explains why several meanings can be drawn from poetry because it is dependent upon the context of the responder. By the looks of it, you are probably not an enthusiastic English student who enjoys reading widely, which is why analysing poetry seems ridiculous to you.
Everyone has their own idea of what a "good" poem is. Why? Again, its because of the context they are raised in. Generally, those rich in ideas and imagery are regarded as one of the "better" poems because it gets the message through a wider audience.
When writing an extended response about a text, just about ANY interpretation is acceptable, as long as you have a nice, clear and detailed argument in justifying your interpretation. Most people take the most common or obvious interpretations because then they can easily justify it in clear detail.
This is what English is about and if you take English (Advanced), you'll explore the concept of changing context shaping meaning in texts even further and into more depth....

 

[priesty]

i quite enjoy poetry. take the time to try and appreciate it. i did TS Eliot in Year 11 and although was hard at first a little bit of extra thought and critical study will open up a whole new world to you through that one piece that you may consider to be him just putting random words together.

 

[the pospinator]

to be honest, i'm divided over the whole T.S eliot "hollow men" issue.

to me, the poem that he is written is not beautiful, its far from it. The poem itself presents a lot of negativity, and brings along with it a sense of depression, and dullness. Yeh sure, the way the poem is written, its pretty good, i mean come on, its T.S Eliot, but stuff like that can make one really depressed and gloomy. I for one wouldn't want to be writing poetry of such kind. I can't imagine what was going thru Eliot's mind when he wrote that poem, but damn, he must have been caught up in heaps of emotions, cos its kinda hard to understand wat he as an author is feeling. But that is a technique of modernist poetry, the dislocation of the authorial presence. But the constant negativity and sadness in the poem swallowed me up, cos that's what i felt.

However, the way Eliot explores 'hollowness' and his integration of religion throughout the peom is indeed an interesting concept. Religion is usually a controversial issue, and therefore, integrating such a theme into the poem made it fascinating to read.

However, i have a major criticism for Eliot. Did he write this poem. to me it seems he ripped of the poem from all different writers cos it full of allusions. Come on, he didn't write that wif a pen, he wrote that poem with scissors. he just cut, copy and paste pieces from all different mediums. I'm sorry Eliot, but a bit too much alluding going on.

Overall, poetry is interesting depending on what it explores. For me, the poem was interesting in that it explored religion, the dream kingdom, the other kingdom and the twighlight kingdom. But i must agree wif live.fast in that at times, the meaning which Eliot is attempting to present is hard to extract, and one's perception of his intended meaning can easily be distorted.

Bottom line: Hollow Men is interesting and dark, the techniques used in a way, are beautifully executed, but the overall tone of the poem, to me, is deinitely not beautiful.

Just some food for thought. Were there copyright laws bcak when Eliot was alive, cos he would've been in some trouble if their were.

 

[drynxz]

you got pwned

 

[(*man.on.fire*)]

Pospishil, its simple to see what was going through his mind, it was a depression...wat did u expect him to write about? how great life is...it was a time of govt. supremacy, dictatorship, waiting in the breadline and destruction...there was no happiness in most people's lives.

 

[(*man.on.fire*)]

I just finished learning about T.S Eliot (if that's how ya spell his name) and seriously, his poetry just...sucks.

Really, I mean, if he's trying to make a point, why doesnt he just make it, instead of going round and about through all these weird allusions and poetic stuff....

And poetry in general...its just stupid
ESPECIALLY if it's even closely similair to 'The Hollow Men' - I mean, anyone could write anything, and be a reaallly crappy poet, but everyone else would try and draw some deep meaning from it, and because it would have been written bad, the meaning would have been harder to draw from it - so a bad poet might seem like an awesome one to all these over-analysts

- and even then, the meaning drawn is allowed to be subjective too, where you draw your own meaning from the poetry, and with really ambigiuous natured poetry, its like them stupid fortune readings that 'psychics' give you - you're bound to draw some 'meaning' from it, even if its not the intended one - but you don't know what the intended meaning might have been, so this might make a crappy poem seem better than it is -

Therefore, Poetry = Stupid

Ha Ha!!! Roger is GAY!!!

 

[ign0r4mus]

Poetry isn't stupid, Eliot is stupid. If anyone has that much time to take a pastiche of texts and stick em all together, they must really be bored. However, those who are even more stupid were those who first analysed the poem and derrived all of these different and sometimes overambitious meanings (some of which i doubt even Eliot realised existed)

 

[the pospinator]

yeh, i agree with ignor4mus. Eliot is very bored. The Hollow Men is vary sepressing. yeh, sure, the times of Eliot were depressing, but he didn't have to go and wite a poem, so as to take his depression out on us, or to make us feel depressed. Eliot = emo. Eliot....is a gay man....get a life =)

P.S: Hollow Men is not beautiful, it is a breach of copyright laws

 

[m0ofin]

Eliot isn't my cuppa tea. Poetry's good stuff sometimes but obviously not all the time.

Haiku's and William Blake are style though.

Btw, why is it a breach of copyright?

 

[the pospinator]

its a breach of copyright laws cos all eliot has done is that he has taken other peoples' stuff, and used it for his own. The whol poem is made up of allusions, its all referencing to other people's pieces.

If you were alive...next time, Eliot, write something more original, if you could.

 

[live.fast]

C. S. Lewis thought his poetry ludicrous, and his literary criticism "superficial and unscholarly"

In case you don't know it yet, this is an attack on T.S Eliot, his use of allusions and his ambiguousness, and why his poetry (specifically The Hollow Men) is not 'beautiful' as other people have labelled it.

"That first examination felt much like the piecing together of a puzzle, a puzzle that constantly shifts form as more pieces are uncovered, old pieces are found to have new shape, and a picture of the whole gradually begins to emerge. Without an attempt to gain the knowledge to discover and understand the pieces, the reader may miss a large portion of the author's intent, but with that knowledge, the reader gains an incredible power of interpretation". - Is it the author's intent to send out mixed meanings, meanings misinstrusing or misintepretations of what his beliefs are? What an allusion brings to a work is a double edged sword - to understand the author's intent, the reader must understand the texts being alluded to, but in doing so, the texts and the main text itself becomes open to wide interpretation.

"The meaning the author adds is implicit, but not explicit; the meaning is suggested, but not demanded. In this situation much is left to the reader. Not only must s/he find the allusion, but s/he must also find a way to give it meaning. A knowing reader, who is already aware of the allusion and familiar with the work being alluded to, can apply that knowledge to instantly discover additional meanings and facets embedded in the newer work. In the hands of a reader unfamiliar with the work being alluded to, the allusion becomes a puzzle. Once the pieces are assembled it enhances the reader's ability to understand and enjoy the work." - So we can draw whatever meaning we believe is correct, out of the poem, even if it really isn't there at all? That's a subjective point of view --> we look for consistencies that seem to be there, but may only by coincedence - the psychic tells you today you will enjoy the fruits of your labours - so you'll look for connections where there aren't any except by what you BELIEVE there is --> but does that make the psychic a genius? An extraorindary, beyond-human person? No, it just makes YOU a gullible person trying to see what isn't there.

"Allusions provide a puzzle and a tool for the reader within which meanings may be altered from what the original words on the page may suggest. They provide a way for the author to convey more with a few words than they would be able to do otherwise" - You know why this is BAD? Because there are too few words trying to convey too big an idea = thus, taking into account the purpose of allusions as a byway against this, it makes the text too open to subjective meaning - TOO ambigious -> trying to draw meaning from single sentences, or even singular words, and linking them to other texts such as the word 'whisper' at the end of The Hollow Men, which Heather Van Aelst and many others believe it to have up to FIVE (any some believe it to have even more) different allusion-like connections - Now THAT is ludicrous, because links are drawn whereby, although they fit in regards to a reader's view, they may not (and probably aren't) enforcing the view T.S Eliot originally gave them.

THEREFORE subjective meaning = an inherently flawed interpretive view, because if it's not the view T.S Eliot was trying to present, then it is not a view that will have been supported throughout the whole of the text, and will not have the contingencies to deal with any small flaws in the nature of the interpretation, whereby the only interpretation (the author's own) is the only one T.S Eliot would have been trying to enforce and consolidate against any logical erratic-ness/error.
Taking away what subjective meaning CAN be drawn, we're left with what the ORIGINAL meaning was, which is whatever Eliot tried to put across in his poetry. What meaning do we know and are we sure of was his, and was in his poetry? Only whatever can be gathered from his notes - right now, I've only addressed the impact of subjectiveness in poetry, specifically T.S Eliot's because of it's extremely ambiguous nature - if you were to address what his ideals were, the values he addresses (once overcoming the fact that almost everyone can have their own bloody interpretation of what those values are) then, you could probably even find further evidence to support why T.S Eliot's works (specifically the Hollow Men) is sooo not beautiful.

Don't call his works beautiful only to jump on the bandwagon - those who call his work beautiful have to find a beauty in his work THEMSELVES - not in the unclear understanding and in the foggy presentation of Eliot's views, but in the purity of a true understanding of what ELIOT wanted to say. Not all poetry that seems strange but meaningful is so - Think for yourself, decide for yourself whether his works deserve the label that people give it.

Oh and btw
Eliot is a gay man

(IN CASE you thought were going to be smart and post something about how I didn't attack the poem, but someone else's writings, those other writings were written in regards TO T.S Eliot's poetry)

ViVa BoLiViA !!

 

[spank_meh]

Poetry sucks like totally.

I remember over in Russia we had to learn the damn poems. GRRR i think that was the day i started hating it. [Phew you guys don't have to learn it here ]But how gayer can it get

 

[the pospinator]

i have to agree with live.fast on this one. to many people just jump on the bandwagon in reagrads to the poetry of Eliot. I noe this satement is slightly contradictory on my first post in this thread, but everyone has to make their own view. Don't take someone else's view, and just re-iterate, after all, that is wat english teachers want, and expression of ur own view, not someone else's.

Also, to re-emphasise the fact that Eliot's poetry is NOT, and i repeat NOT beautiful. The poem has many negative and depressing conotations, which to be honest, kinda made me feel a bit gloomy myself.

But, we got a mad teacher, and she always makes it interesting. And also, on the plus side, Eliot talked about religion, which is always and interesting issue, and subject to much debate. (I love having an argument)

But anywayz, Eliot's poetry is NOT beautiful, but very deep. But that may be because of the fact that he has too many allusions, which has led to overanalysing, and has also resulted in to many different interpretations. Like live.fast said, one can pull out heaps of interpretations, some that Eliot didn't even intend to create.

But anyway, bottom line, Eliot=emo....get a life (ironic, yes) and try to be more original

P.S: Hollow Men is a breach of copyright laws