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Post Election Thoughts Continued (1 Viewer)

MoonlightSonata

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astro said:
You mean open more places for those rich kids who can get a place because they have the dollars....

It'll also be bye-bye to proper journalism...
It opens up more places. I did not say fee-paying. I said more places. A place is a place.

In fact the policy is more socialist in a sense because it is providing for the greatest number at the cost of the individual!
 

astro

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Without the Whitlam government, there will be many who would not have received university degrees, not becasue they were incompetent, but becasue they did not have the money for it....
 

Not-That-Bright

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Now i've seen that 18% of the population is above 52,000... it seems although there would be alot more than this, where do they get these figures and what are they based on?

Are they based on AFTER tax?

Do they include ONLY people currently in the workforce?

Because alot of my dad's workers who are plumbers, electricians, escavators earn over 52,000 and that's in the apparently lower-income western suburbs..
 

paper cup

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no I am not against private schools getting money.
But may I point out that schools such as kings, abbotsleigh, charge well over 10 000 a year per student.
why do they need gov't funding atop this?
or does the welfare of rural students come before a 7th pool, a 5th tennis court etc.?
Whitlam did many things beneficial for our nation. I will not repeat them, Asq's covered them quite thoroughly. of course he had his faults, but so does, every PM in Australian history. for example, which PM now was it that dragged us into vietnam?
And what Fraser did was rather cowardly don't you think?...
Howard also seems to think that a 3000 baby bonus is adequate going to effectively alter our aging population...so, liberal supporters, what has Howard done for women? atsi?...
 

lissa2085

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How in hell can labor even hope to rectify the situation with our health/education systems if they can never manage to have a surplus? All these supposedly wonderful policies Latham is spouting can never be any good UNLESS we have a strong economy - they can implement these policies as a result of the LIberals' skill at managing our economy - if a Labor government were in power they'd never have the money to implement any of the policies without plunging us into massive debt again.

And i wish people would stop whining about HECS - i think its pretty affordable for everyone even if the fees do go up, since its designed so that we pay it back when we have a steady income and its calculated to be paid back in measured amounts so that it IS affordable. People should value their uni education enough to pay for it and its the same for everyone - if you go to uni you would expect that you would end up with a reasonable job and you'd be able to pay your HECS. I mean really, its hardly an issue
 

MoonlightSonata

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cherryblossom said:
no I am not against private schools getting money.
But may I point out that schools such as kings, abbotsleigh, charge well over 10 000 a year per student.
why do they need gov't funding atop this?
or does the welfare of rural students come before a 7th pool, a 5th tennis court etc.?
Whitlam did many things beneficial for our nation. I will not repeat them, Asq's covered them quite thoroughly. of course he had his faults, but so does, every PM in Australian history. for example, which PM now was it that dragged us into vietnam?
And what Fraser did was rather cowardly don't you think?...
Howard also seems to think that a 3000 baby bonus is adequate going to effectively alter our aging population...so, liberal supporters, what has Howard done for women? atsi?...
Not everyone attending a private school is filthy rich. People deserve some financial recognition from the government in support of their CHOICE to send their kids to whatever school they select.
 

MoonlightSonata

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lissa2085 said:
How in hell can labor even hope to rectify the situation with our health/education systems if they can never manage to have a surplus? All these supposedly wonderful policies Latham is spouting can never be any good UNLESS we have a strong economy - they can implement these policies as a result of the LIberals' skill at managing our economy - if a Labor government were in power they'd never have the money to implement any of the policies without plunging us into massive debt again.
Very general, spurious claims. That's not why I voted Liberal.


lissa2085 said:
And i wish people would stop whining about HECS - i think its pretty affordable for everyone even if the fees do go up, since its designed so that we pay it back when we have a steady income and its calculated to be paid back in measured amounts so that it IS affordable. People should value their uni education enough to pay for it and its the same for everyone - if you go to uni you would expect that you would end up with a reasonable job and you'd be able to pay your HECS. I mean really, its hardly an issue
Agreed
 

paper cup

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lissa2085 said:
How in hell can labor even hope to rectify the situation with our health/education systems if they can never manage to have a surplus? All these supposedly wonderful policies Latham is spouting can never be any good UNLESS we have a strong economy - they can implement these policies as a result of the LIberals' skill at managing our economy - if a Labor government were in power they'd never have the money to implement any of the policies without plunging us into massive debt again.

And i wish people would stop whining about HECS - i think its pretty affordable for everyone even if the fees do go up, since its designed so that we pay it back when we have a steady income and its calculated to be paid back in measured amounts so that it IS affordable. People should value their uni education enough to pay for it and its the same for everyone - if you go to uni you would expect that you would end up with a reasonable job and you'd be able to pay your HECS. I mean really, its hardly an issue
so we are supposed to keep mistrusting howard instead of daring to trust latham?
How do you know they will never have a surplus? you haven't even given him a chance.
Oh and I wish private school people like you who have incredibly well to do mummies and daddies that have money and connections to get them into which ever uni place they want quit telling about people who rightfully deserve to demand better funding to shut up. Look I don't want an aquatic centre or laptop computers I just want CHAIRS, OK, CHAIRS now is that so much to ask. so apparently now only your opinions are relevant...
 

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MoonlightSonata said:
Not everyone attending a private school is filthy rich. People deserve some financial recognition from the government in support of their CHOICE to send their kids to whatever school they select.

Yes they deserve SOME recognition...that does not include funds to build an auditorium, swimming pools or conservatoriums...
are private school kids too good for the public swimming pool....
 

MoonlightSonata

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cherryblossom said:
Oh and I wish private school people like you who have incredibly well to do mummies and daddies that have money and connections to get them into which ever uni place they want quit telling about people who rightfully deserve to demand better funding to shut up. Look I don't want an aquatic centre or laptop computers I just want CHAIRS, OK, CHAIRS now is that so much to ask to shut up. so only your opinions are relevant...
Nice presumption there. Keep up the ad hominem fallacies...
 

MoonlightSonata

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astro said:
Yes they deserve SOME recognition...that does not include funds to build an auditorium, swimming pools or conservatoriums...
are private school kids too good for the public swimming pool....
Funds are already distributed based on socio-economic living area. While wealthy areas should receive less, the fact that government schools are getting 5 times the funding, I don't think it's too far off the mark.
 

paper cup

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yes I am aware that not all who attend private schools are filthy rich but odds are if you can send your kid to a place that charges 14 000 a year you are better off than a public school kid that forks over a few hundred.

so, you're allowed to generalise and I'm not? - and most schools that charge that much have that, and much more.

oh the liberal supporter superiority.
 

astro

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MoonlightSonata said:
Funds are already distributed based on socio-economic living area. While wealthy areas should receive less, the fact that government schools are getting 5 times the funding, I don't think it's too far off the mark.

If we are getting 'five times the funding', then why did one of the classrooms in my school collapse, why haven't we got proper fences, why are our air conditions a mere decoration, why do our computers fail (we're a freaking technology high school)....and why doesn't cherryblossom's school have chairs......
 

lissa2085

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Yeah thats right Cherry-im-a-dickhead-blossom, my Dad is Kerry Packer and my mum is Lucy Turnbull. And they're going to pay ALL my uni fees *flutters eyelashes* lordy you are so sad haha. "connections" uni is uni and HECS is designed to be totally affordable and it IS. So yeah - shut up
 

MoonlightSonata

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cherryblossom said:
yes I am aware that not all who attend private schools are filthy rich but odds are if you can send your kid to a place that charges 14 000 a year you are better off than a public school kid that forks over a few hundred.

so, you're allowed to generalise and I'm not? - and most schools that charge that much have that, and much more.

MoonlightSonata said:
Funds are already distributed based on socio-economic living area. While wealthy areas should receive less, the fact that government schools are getting 5 times the funding, I don't think it's too far off the mark.

cherryblossom said:
oh the liberal supporter superiority.
You can call me names all you want. Its the worst fallacy of argument and it only goes to show a lack of substance on your part.
 

Not-That-Bright

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Asquithian said:
oh please...if labor is so shit at the economy why are all the labor states in surplus? Why did the labor party deregulate the economy?

and why did howard when last treasurer run 4 deficits and interest rates at 10% or more?

Do you really think the liberal party dramatically impacts on interes rates...if the US interest rates go up tomorrow so will ours...


why dont you spit up some more liberal propaganda ?
August 31, 2004
Interest rates - more complicated than you think
John Howard says that interest rates will be higher under Labor than under him, and so journalists run out and find a bunch of experts to say that governments have little or no effect on interest rates. They could save their time, because governments do have an effect on interest rates, and even if they don't, voters believe they do, so as far as election results are concerned, they might as well.

Which is not to say that John Howard has a particularly circumstantially strong argument. A friend, Michael Lee, provided me with this chart. It shows interest rates from the days of Billy McMahon through to the present, both here and in the USA. One can see that under the Howard Government rates have been dramatically lower than under the Hawke/Keating governments - an average of 11.46% versus 5.46%. But it shows a quite different story when comparing the Whitlam and Fraser period. Under Whitlam, interest rates averaged 9.42%, while under Fraser they averaged 12.33%. So the circumstantial evidence to support Howard's case only appears to hold true in the case of his government versus the previous one. A point that Latham has made.

But there are a few more wrinkles in the circumstantial case, which don't help Latham. In the period before Whitlam took office, rates had averaged 6.35% since 1969. During his watch they topped out at 21.75% - a figure a touch higher than any reached by Fraser, contrary to Latham's assertions. So, while the Fraser government did have higher interest rates on average than Whitlam's, it also inherited a rapidly accelerating trend. One can only speculate what heights Whitlam might have reached if he had inherited the same interest rates of 8% from his predecessor as Fraser did. This leaves Howard with the circumstantially arguable case that the last 30 years have represented a struggle by Liberal governments to get control over interest rates that have run away under Labor Governments.

One objection often raised to Howard's circumstantial argument is that Australian interest rates mirror overseas interest rates and Howard is just a beneficiary of a benign international interest rate climate. There is some truth in that, but only some. As the graph shows, based on comparing our 90 day bills with US 90 day treasuries, under Labor, in Australia interest rates have been dramatically higher than in the USA. Even though our rates have mirrored international fluctuations, those fluctuations in Australia have been vastly exaggerated on the high side.

So much for the circumstantial argument. What about the causal relationship? Is it true, as Bob McMullan claimed yesterday that "Interest rates don't respond to political parties, they respond to good policy...History doesn't support what John Howard is saying, independent commentators don't support what John Howard is saying, the financial markets don't support what John Howard is saying."? The Herald Sun summarised this as "Interest rates [go] up and down regardless of which party [is] in government".

The answer is no, judged on the basis of history. Political parties do have an effect, because policy and how they implement it is born out of the sort of organisation that they are. Labor tends to want to do more than is financially possible. In fact, Australia's interest regime became volatile in the 70s as a result of the mismanagement of the Whitlam government where government expenditure grew well out of control so as to fund Whitlam's wish list. Keating innovated more modestly on the tradition, but given a choice between growth and moderation, he used to go for growth, and boast about it, until he had no choice but to hit the brakes. Journalists may not remember these things, but ordinary voters, even if they can't remember the particulars, remember the effects. Latham may be different, but will voters take the punt?

Of course, it is not so long ago that Bob McMullen was claiming that Howard was bad for interest rates, so his record as an economic analyst is a bit opportunistic. In fact, he has a lot of front to make the accusation later in the article that "It's just another instance when the Australian people can't believe the Prime Minister". Whether or not interest rates go up under Labor, the speculative bubble that is most interesting to watch is the one in accusations of lying. If they continue to deal with the facts like this, it may burst for them sooner rather than later.
 

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lissa2085 said:
Yeah thats right Cherry-im-a-dickhead-blossom, my Dad is Kerry Packer and my mum is Lucy Turnbull. And they're going to pay ALL my uni fees *flutters eyelashes* lordy you are so sad haha. "connections" uni is uni and HECS is designed to be totally affordable and it IS. So yeah - shut up
oh look she can't construct a coherent response to my argument so she resorts to insulting me personally. such maturity for one so young.
 

Not-That-Bright

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I'll find you the stats for the type of income earners that send their kids to private schools if you want.. it's fairly surprising, there are about as many low-income earners in private schools as there are in public.. it's a choice.

In schools like kings im sure there are people there that pay the $10,000 for their kid and only earn 48,000 a year.
 

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