Ranking For Monash Law School (1 Viewer)

[caranthir27]

I know that rankings do not necessarily mean individual success at a Uni, but i was just curious to know the ranking for the law schools in Australia, particulary the Monash law school and UoM law school.

Btw, any prospective students who are going to Monash for law next year?

 

[caranthir27]

Anyone? haha

 

[DiehardRoyalist]

I got an ENTER of 99.30, so I will be most likely be doing Commerce/Law at Monash next year. Initially, I was absolutely devastated with that score, as it meant I had pragmatically just missed out on a place in my first preference of Commerce/Law at the University of Melbourne, which always has and will continue to be traditionally a more prestigious degree. For someone who eventually wishes to work and settle overseas, the prestige of one’s degree in a HUGE consideration that cannot be avoided.

So tossing up between undertaking Commerce/Law CSP at Monash or Commerce/Law full fee at Melbourne, I called up my school’s careers advisor and she said something that cheered me up immensely. Apparently, it is widely expected that come the introduction of the Melbourne Model in 2008, Monash Law will be, in terms of the ENTER, the highest ranked UNDERGRADUATE Law degree in Australia outside of NSW, with the clearly in enter score for the course set to shoot up to at LEAST 99.5 from 2008 and onwards. This will occur as people who would have otherwise gone to Melbourne will instead opt to undertake an undergraduate combined Law degree at Monash, thereby wishing to avoid the uncertainties associated with postgraduate entry into Melbourne Law under the intensively competitive Melbourne Model. Consequently, this will considerably enhance the prestige and ranking of Monash’s Law degree, which may even one day equal that of Melbourne’s.

We have already seen a similar scenario unfold when the University of Sydney switched to making its Medicine degree postgraduate entry only; which resulted in the smartest people in NSW opting to study undergraduate Medicine at UNSW in preference to seeking postgraduate entry into medicine at the University of Sydney, which is traditionally a more prestigious course. Subsequently, we now see that UNSW despite being, like Monash, a secondary university in its respective city, attract some 55 % of all students who attain an UAI over 99. Compare this to the situation in Victoria, where Melbourne University currently claims to attract as LEAST 70% of students with ENTER’s over 99. However, based on the UNSW’s experience, it would seem with the introduction of the Melbourne Model, that this is all set to change with Monash set to benefit immensely.

Of course, at this stage it must be stressed that we are dealing in pure speculation, which whilst educated, is yet to be substantiated. Subsequently, we cannot yet believe that things will necessarily unfold as aforementioned. However, if things do turn out as expected, you should be rest assured that the ranking and prestige of Monash’s Law faculty should improve immeasurably in coming years.

 

[caranthir27]

DiehardRoyalist,

Thanks for the reply. I've been waiting for someone to say something in this thread for quite some time. At the moment, is the current standing of Monash Law School lower in terms of ranking compared to UoM or is this not known by anyone?

Do you have any idea what the estimated clearly-in ENTER for Monash would be this year for the said course? Your result is impressive, but it looks like you have opted to enter Monash instead, although you could have gone to UoM. My aim was UoM, but I didn't make the minimum so my only hope now is to get an international/full-fee place at Monash. What subjects did you take?

Do you know why Melbourne has introduced this new model, and could this potentially lower UoM in terms of its prestige in the course?

I also see that this was your first post. Thanks for registering to answer my question. Appeciate it.

 

[DiehardRoyalist]

Well to answer your first question, there is without a doubt that Melbourne's Law faculty has a higher prestige than Monash's equivalent. According to the London Times Higher education supplement, the world's most prominemnt ranking of universities, Melbourne is ranked TENTH in the world in the field of Social Sciences, which relates to business, economics and Law. This was the highest by far of any AUstralian University, so in terms of rankings, there is no doubt of Melbourne's dominance. However, in the eyes of many, such rankings are purely cosmetic, as I know of many top tier Melbourne Law firms who put graduates from Melbourne and Monash on almost equal footing. In fact, it is a well known fact that many Law firms refuse to hire anyone outside a Melbourne or Monash graduate, whilst others set aside 98% of their graduate positions for Melbourne/Monash graduates.

Ummm, to answer your second question... at my school last year (2006!) we had representatives from both Monash and Melbourne come to speak to us and push forward their cases as to why their university is better than the other. According to the representative from the Melbourne Legal faculty, he expected the clearly in for law at melb to go up to 99.55 csp and 98 full fee, whilst the monash rep predicted the clearly in for monash Law 99.1 csp and 94 full fee. Based on those figures, my score wouldn't have been enough for comm/law csp at melb, and personally I don't feel comfortable paying $25000 per year to do Law at Melbourne just for that added bit of prestige when Law at Monash is a perfectly respectable alternative . However, since you are prepared to pay full fee, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't try to exhaust all avenues of getting into Melbourne.

So I hope you you are able to make the choice that is best for you, but in any case, as long you do well in either of those Law courses, I am sure you will have a bright future ahead of you. I personally know of very successfull Law graduates from both universities, so you really shouldn't worry about what course you get into as long as you have the drive and determination to succeed in it.

 

[turtleface]

I'm from Uni of Melb and was sucked in by the whole "omg melb owns monash" when I was in year 12

All those rankings and numbers are just statistical nonsense. Its impossible to interpret them in any meaningful way. Things like the Times one are based on research productivity and output - irrelevant for 2 degrees as vocational and technical as Commerce and Law (maybe for economics its a bigger factor). Hell, Law you may as well teach in TAFE given the lack of academia influence.

But you have to ask, what are you trying to achieve at uni?

If you are insecure enough to want to go to Melbourne to show off to clueless people that are impressed by "OMG I'm MELBOURNE I OWN YOU" then I guess Melbourne might be for you.

If like most people you want to get into melbourne to improve your job prospects, and fear that you will be rejected by bigots who don't want "2nd class citizens" from Monash uni: well, frankly you don't work for organisations like that, since that kind of elitism will probably rub off into the firm culture and will make the place a shithole to work in.

One last thing is if Monash is considered 2nd rate, then those from Deakin, Latrobe and co. may as well drop out.

 

[trishan]

DiehardRoyalist, I just thought I would mention that the commerce/law double degree clerary in ENTER SHOULD drop this year due to additional places. I imagine it will drop to around 99.20, which means you are well in contention for a place there (CSP). Better heard from the horses mouth:

"More Commonwealth supported places are available across a number of courses, including in particular Arts and Commerce (and associated double degrees). Students are therefore strongly advised to use last year's Clearly-In Rank as a guide only."

 

[trishan]

Here is the source information of that quote
Source: http://www.futurestudents.unimelb.edu.au/courses/cop/
Uni Melb Wesbite

 

[Frigid]

DiehardRoyalist, do you really think UAI/ENTER cutoffs affect the international prestige/perception of a university, or a particular faculty?

 

[caranthir27]

I'm from Uni of Melb and was sucked in by the whole "omg melb owns monash" when I was in year 12

All those rankings and numbers are just statistical nonsense. Its impossible to interpret them in any meaningful way. Things like the Times one are based on research productivity and output - irrelevant for 2 degrees as vocational and technical as Commerce and Law (maybe for economics its a bigger factor). Hell, Law you may as well teach in TAFE given the lack of academia influence.

But you have to ask, what are you trying to achieve at uni?

If you are insecure enough to want to go to Melbourne to show off to clueless people that are impressed by "OMG I'm MELBOURNE I OWN YOU" then I guess Melbourne might be for you.

If like most people you want to get into melbourne to improve your job prospects, and fear that you will be rejected by bigots who don't want "2nd class citizens" from Monash uni: well, frankly you don't work for organisations like that, since that kind of elitism will probably rub off into the firm culture and will make the place a shithole to work in.

One last thing is if Monash is considered 2nd rate, then those from Deakin, Latrobe and co. may as well drop out.

That made a lot of sense turtleface. Thanks for the input and realism . Truth is, in my country, only two unis are recognised if you wish to practice, which is UoM and Monash in Melbourne, so I guess it must be just as good.

Furthermore, i read that the rankings for some are based on the research and all and I think that does not reflect the quality of the lessons taught there. That is why I was hoping an existing student could give a little insight on UoM or Monash and say what the law faculty in their uni is like. That'd be really useful information I think, especially for prospective students regardless of whether you get into which uni.

DiehardRoyalist,

I wish i could exhaust all avenues to be explored for Intl students like myself but my ENTER of 94.70 just does not cut the minimum of 98 for UoM. I was devastated but at least i still have the chance for Monash, so I might as well treasure it.

 

[Pr0digy]

For anyone curious, here are the latest stats from THES on "The world's top arts and humanities universities";

1 Cambridge University UK
2 Oxford University UK
3 Harvard University US
4 University of California, Berkeley US
5 Sydney University Australia
6 Australian National University Australia
7 Melbourne University Australia
8 Yale University US
9 Princeton University US
10 Beijing University China
11 University of Toronto Canada
12 McGill University Canada
13 Edinburgh University UK
14 Columbia University US
15 Stanford University US
16 Paris IV — Sorbonne France
17 University of Chicago US
18 University of New South Wales Australia
19 London School of Economics UK
20 University of California, Los Angeles US
21 Massachusetts Institute of Technology
22 National University of Singapore Singapore
23 King’s College London UK
24 Amsterdam University Netherlands
25 Ecole Normale Supériere Paris France
26 Copenhagen University Denmark
27 Tokyo University Japan
28 Monash University Australia

Australia's pretty up there... 3 unis in the top ten - not bad!

Law school rank-wise, Monash is lowish compared to some other unis in Australia... but if we're talking about the 'overall' rank of Monash in the world... it is actually #38, only slightly behind USyd and number #4 in Australia. Although keep in mind, these rankings really mean jack shit, lol. Because they're mainly based on post-grad work and research, so it doesn't really affect us undergrads much.

 

[caranthir27]

Thanks Prodigy. Finally a reply after a long time. Haha.

Rankings...I found that there isn't really a standardised ranking, cos there are many sources with rankings, and there are all based on different things, so what is the real gauge of a university's quality?

I think only first-hand experience from students is the best ranking...so...any current or former Monash Law or UoM law students here?

 

[FlashCE]

What does arts and humanities involve? Thanks

 

[caranthir27]

Btw, do you have the link to the full list for the rankings you quoted? Thanks

 

[Pr0digy]

Hey... attached is the site I got it from (I can't link you directly to THES' site because you have to be a subscriber of the publication to view these statistics).

EDIT: ok so you can't attach HTML files.. SAD.

http://www.thes.co.uk/statistics/international_comparisons/2006/arts_and_humanities.aspx

There's the link.. see if it works. It probably won't.. so just sign up for a free 14 day trial... then you'll be able to see all the other stats as well.

 

[caranthir27]

Ahh...can't be bothered signing up for the trial . That was why i thought you could post it here .

Thanks anyways...

 

[Baiku]

Well firstly, I think this whole discussion is a waste of effort.

The wisest thing said in this thread so far: "All those rankings and numbers are just statistical nonsense."

Both Monash and Melbourne Law are considered '1st tier' universities by ALL major employers. There can be slight preference either way, but NO firm in Australia will disregard you as a potential employee for that reason alone.

As far as international opportunities are concerned, employers are looking for extremely hard-working AND well-rounded individuals. The people with an 80+ average AND considerable extracurricular involvement AND volunteer work AND a part-time job, etc. etc.
When they find somebody of that 'caliber' of person, they do not look over them because they went to Victoria's second best university.

If firms had your attitude, which trust me, they don't - they would only employ students from the top university in the region, radically reducing the diversity of their workforce.

Quite obviously - Monash and Melbourne have slightly different teaching styles and produce graduates with a slightly different education. If you are the recruitment officer for a large firm, you would employ one of each, so that you have 'the best of both worlds'.

It is for this reason that the 'truly second-tier' law schools such as Deakin, Latrobe do still give graduates a chance to get an offer from a top-ten firm.

Anyway, I could go on all day about the stupidity of only wanting to go to Melbourne for the statistical ranks or the 'prestige' - but it's a waste of time. You know that Monash has a very established law school. Everybody in the legal industry in Victoria, if not Australia, knows that Monash has a very established law school.

I actually found it hilarious for the first month at Monash listening to some people complain about not 'getting Melbourne' - they were all of the same people sitting in the corners not speaking unless spoken to, whilst the people that were happy to be at Monash, were also happy to be making new friends and enjoying uni life.

Whatever happens, all the best, if you do end up at Monash, I will see you at enrolment day on 24th/25th - consider getting involved and coming to my party

 

[caranthir27]

I totally agree with you that Universities that people studied in do not necessarily mean success in the field they graduated in. That's why in my first post i said, rankings do not mean success at uni, or even like you said , the ability to work and produce results in the real world.

You did say the teaching styles are different in the two top tier unis in Victoria for law. How are they different from each other?

Based on the year you graduated from high school, I assume you're a law student at Monash doing your second year?

 

[OliverHolmes]

Some of these posts are hilarious.

Quite honestly, you're only just beginning your studies (and some of you don't even know whether you've been accepted into law school). You've got a HUGE learning curve ahead of you, and your immaturity is strikingly obvious in your posts thus far. ENTER scores and the like may seem absolutely important to you now, and the supposed 'reputation' of certain schools over others paramount, but once you're in law school you'll be fighting like mad to be the best you can be against other students who will be more educated and more motivated. Remember, if you're attempting law school straight from VCE (irrespective of your marks), you'll be competing against postgrads and older students who will be able to write better, speak more eloquently and understand the very different expectations of tertiary assessment.

It is simply not easy.

Getting into law school is one thing, but the concerns over reputation will diminish once you face the reality of study. My advice to all of you is to stop flapping your lip about 'reputation' and 'ranking' and START READING NOW. Read introductory texts and review topics like jurisprudence, the history of the common law, legal ethics and the mechanics of the Australian legal system.

Getting into a good law school is one thing. Doing WELL in law school exists in ANOTHER UNIVERSE. Who cares if you went to Melbourne Law if you flunk out, or achieve consistent Pass grades throughout your degree?

This is NOT 'The Firm'. Or 'Boston Legal'. Or 'Legally Blonde'. And you are NOT the smartest person in the room.

And, NO, Yr. 12 Legal Studies will NOT provide the critical insights that will gain marks for you in 1st year Law. As foundational knowledge, it's fine. For analytical and critical understanding (necessary for higher exam marks), you need to be reading material at a higher level.

And, NO, your 'Careers Adviser' during VCE does NOT know all that much about the legal profession, nor can he/she predict law school rankings in the future. A 'Careers Adviser' is, by necessity, a generalist high school teacher who will provide some careers guidance across a range of disciplines. If they really knew half the garbage they spin, THEY would be doctors, lawyers, etc. instead of high school Careers Advisers. Right?

Honestly, folks - law school will knock you down a peg or two. 99+ VCE scores are great - they give you the power of choice. But they are by no means an indicator of future tertiary performance. The majority of law school students, irrespective of background, score in the Credit range (60-70%) during assessment. That's the truth.

Law school is a ticket to nothing but hard work and extreme competition. Snobbery will only get you so far...

 

[OliverHolmes]

You did say the teaching styles are different in the two top tier unis in Victoria for law. How are they different from each other?

The usual dumb remark is as follows: "If you want to make money, go to Melbourne. If you want to make a difference, go to Monash."

Which is a load of bollocks. High performance in any school is what counts. If anyone thinks that a low performing student at Melbourne will be looked upon more favourably than a high performing student at, say, Deakin, they need to wake up.