MedVision ad

Religion and morality: an illusion? (1 Viewer)

Graney

Horse liberty
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
4,434
Location
Bereie
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Well as said more often, the honous is on you.

What I'd like to see is the existence of moral behavioral characteristic such as altruism amongst many species of organisms.

Of course that is dependent upon the definition that needs to be decided you.
You've got the assumed relationship arse backwards.

You have a preconceived notion of an absolute morality, so if 'morality' is purely biological, you demand that it must be the demonstrated case that other species demonstrate the exact same morality as humanity.

Your assumption is that if 'morality' can be a product of evolution it must proceed towards your own, personal 21st century understanding of an absolute morality.

It's a straw man, because this is not what evolutionary biologists suggest.

A biological model of the evolution of morality would say that your perception of morality, the reason you act and assume the things you do, is entirely biologically driven. The assumptions that you base your moral judgements on are driven by evolved, biological factors. The chemistry of your brain, hormones etc... dictate your moral judgements. Even any decision supposedly based on reason, is underpinned by certain unasserted chemically driven emotional assumptions.

A particular judgement or action will become part of a species if it aids sexual selection. To assert that the evolutionary theory of morality is true, we only have to demonstrate that the qualities that are considered 'moral', would assist a species in fitting within it's biological niche. When we look at human behaviour, the success of the human species is due to cooperative, social behaviour, the exact same pro-social behaviour that is demonstrated among similar species such as the other great apes. Humans could have just as well evolved other notions of right and wrong if environmental pressures had been different, and the notion of morality they developed then would be whatever best enhanced sexual selection.

The whole notion of evolution is diversification and the filling of ecological niches, animal species should evolve to have diverse actions and reactions to stimuli, it would actually be contrary to evolutionary theory for all animal species to evolve towards any consistent notion of absolute morality. Some animal species will have behavior that resembles the 'moral' behaviour of humans when they are filling similar niches. If they fill dissimilar niches, it will be sexually advantageous to behave differently.

A biological view of morality is nihilistic. It doesn't say that all species must evolve towards a particular morality. It only says that the particular judgements and actions of any species have developed through how well they enhance sexual selection
 

meilz92

where are my hair
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
3,399
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2009
Uni Grad
2014
religion is pointless imo
 

Lukybear

Active Member
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
1,466
Gender
Male
HSC
2010
You've got the assumed relationship arse backwards.

You have a preconceived notion of an absolute morality, so if 'morality' is purely biological, you demand that it must be the demonstrated case that other species demonstrate the exact same morality as humanity.

Your assumption is that if 'morality' can be a product of evolution it must proceed towards your own, personal 21st century understanding of an absolute morality.

It's a straw man, because this is not what evolutionary biologists suggest.

A biological model of the evolution of morality would say that your perception of morality, the reason you act and assume the things you do, is entirely biologically driven. The assumptions that you base your moral judgements on are driven by evolved, biological factors. The chemistry of your brain, hormones etc... dictate your moral judgements. Even any decision supposedly based on reason, is underpinned by certain unasserted chemically driven emotional assumptions.

A particular judgement or action will become part of a species if it aids sexual selection. To assert that the evolutionary theory of morality is true, we only have to demonstrate that the qualities that are considered 'moral', would assist a species in fitting within it's biological niche. When we look at human behaviour, the success of the human species is due to cooperative, social behaviour, the exact same pro-social behaviour that is demonstrated among similar species such as the other great apes. Humans could have just as well evolved other notions of right and wrong if environmental pressures had been different, and the notion of morality they developed then would be whatever best enhanced sexual selection.

The whole notion of evolution is diversification and the filling of ecological niches, animal species should evolve to have diverse actions and reactions to stimuli, it would actually be contrary to evolutionary theory for all animal species to evolve towards any consistent notion of absolute morality. Some animal species will have behavior that resembles the 'moral' behaviour of humans when they are filling similar niches. If they fill dissimilar niches, it will be sexually advantageous to behave differently.

A biological view of morality is nihilistic. It doesn't say that all species must evolve towards a particular morality. It only says that the particular judgements and actions of any species have developed through how well they enhance sexual selection
Again I stress the importance of a properly defined meaning of morality. What your arguing is evolution. Selection pressures enforces certain behavioral characteristics to be passed on to the next generation.

However that is a propelled evolution. Every action that is enacted, which manifest itself as a behavioral characteristics in which we may define as moral are all driven by the desire to survive, to mate and to reproduce. This is not morality, but rather biology.

But this is not the human morality, which does not follows this desire to reproduce, mate and survive. It is rather a deeper sense of morality that is experienced by almost all people that stems from consciousness. It is innate in humans and is enveloped in the thought process.

Sure a chimpanzee may reason, using their sub - par brain capacity "I want to mate with this particular member of the opposite sex, therefore I will not kill her for her food".

But this is different to the human sense of morality, to "I will not kill this person because I love this person and want to care for this precious life." It may mean in this case sacrificing and minimizing your own possibilities of survival which I do not believe is part of evolution.

Perhaps the pivotal example in evident in Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of other. Many may the existence of this person, but I am sure there are numerous of historical evidence supporting his life.

Even if you dismiss this evidence there are other examples. Humans with morality that do great things, suffer injury, harm and even death for what is a morally right cause. Certainly that cannot be achieved by evolution, but rather by another pathway.
 

Scorch

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
564
Location
Marayong
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
Again I stress the importance of a properly defined meaning of morality. What your arguing is evolution. Selection pressures enforces certain behavioral characteristics to be passed on to the next generation.

However that is a propelled evolution. Every action that is enacted, which manifest itself as a behavioral characteristics in which we may define as moral are all driven by the desire to survive, to mate and to reproduce. This is not morality, but rather biology.

But this is not the human morality, which does not follows this desire to reproduce, mate and survive. It is rather a deeper sense of morality that is experienced by almost all people that stems from consciousness. It is innate in humans and is enveloped in the thought process.

Sure a chimpanzee may reason, using their sub - par brain capacity "I want to mate with this particular member of the opposite sex, therefore I will not kill her for her food".
You clearly are at a loss to understand what we are attempting to say. You have said this several times and the difference has been pointed out to you. Morality is a natural development that is a result of humanity's interaction with the biological realities of its existence; it is not being said that it is an evolutionary force in itself. Please try reading next time.

But this is different to the human sense of morality, to "I will not kill this person because I love this person and want to care for this precious life." It may mean in this case sacrificing and minimizing your own possibilities of survival which I do not believe is part of evolution.

Perhaps the pivotal example in evident in Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of other. Many may the existence of this person, but I am sure there are numerous of historical evidence supporting his life.

Even if you dismiss this evidence there are other examples. Humans with morality that do great things, suffer injury, harm and even death for what is a morally right cause. Certainly that cannot be achieved by evolution, but rather by another pathway.
This is nonsensical.
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
1,290
Location
coordinates: bookshop
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2008
Yo, even if Jesus' existence is proven, that isn't compelling evidence that there was a moral decision in which he chose to die.

Having an emotional attachment to someone does not make you 'moral'. Moral philosophy contains many schools of thought, maybe you should study at least one before you post again.
 

Scorch

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2006
Messages
564
Location
Marayong
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
Yo, even if Jesus' existence is proven, that isn't compelling evidence that there was a moral decision in which he chose to die.
Well his existence is; that he was a cultist figure in Judea that lived around this time, had a following, was named Christus or something similar and died (somehow) is basically all we can reliably say.
 
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Messages
1,290
Location
coordinates: bookshop
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
2008
Well his existence is; that he was a cultist figure in Judea that lived around this time, had a following, was named Christus or something similar and died (somehow) is basically all we can reliably say.
Yeah, I know that. I may have phrased it badly.
 

BigBoyJames -

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
90
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
religion is like a set of rules that tell us what is good and what is bad.

people should know for themself what is good and what isnt, if someone needs to follow certain morals only because a book told them to (and not for the sake of being a good person), then that's a bit silly, and that kinda says something about the person (if u cant tell right from wrong yourself, then there is something wrong with you).
people can grow up and live their lives as an athiest, and still be someone with great morals.

i guess religion is a way of rewarding/punishing people according to the decisions they make in live regarding morals (for those who believe in religion).

edit: so what is this thread actually about? the (apparent) interrelation between religion and moralality?
stfu
 

Karlmarx

Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
136
Location
Sydney Lad.
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Well, put it this way:

Euthyphro dilemma:

'The first horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is right is commanded by God because it is right) goes under a variety of names: intellectualism, rationalism, realism, naturalism, and/or objectivism. Roughly, it is the view is that there are independent moral standards: some actions are right or wrong in themselves, independently of God's commands.'

Now;

'This horn of the dilemma faces several problems:
Sovereignty: If there are moral standards independent of God's will, then "[t]here is something over which God is not sovereign. God is bound by the laws of morality instead of being their establisher. Moreover, God depends for his goodness on the extent to which he conforms to an independent moral standard. Thus, God is not absolutely independent."[13] 18th-century philosopher Richard Price, who takes the first horn and thus sees morality as "necessary and immutable", sets out the objection as follows: "It may seem that this is setting up something distinct from God, which is independent of him, and equally eternal and necessary."[14]
Omnipotence: These moral standards would limit God's power: not even God could oppose them by commanding what is evil and thereby making it good. As Richard Swinburne puts the point, this horn "seems to place a restriction on God's power if he cannot make any action which he chooses obligatory... [and also] it seems to limit what God can command us to do. God, if he is to be God, cannot command us to do what, independently of his will, is wrong."[15] This point was very influential in Islamic theology: "In relation to God, objective values appeared as a limiting factor to His power to do as He wills... Ash'ari got rid of the whole embarrassing problem by denying the existence of objective values which might act as a standard for God’s action."[16] Similar concerns drove the medieval voluntarists Scotus and Ockham.[17]
Freedom of the will: Moreover, these moral standards would limit God's freedom of will: God could not command anything opposed to them, and perhaps would have no choice but to command in accordance with them.[18] As Mark Murphy puts the point, "if moral requirements existed prior to God's willing them, requirements that an impeccable God could not violate, God's liberty would be compromised."[19]
Morality without God: If there are moral standards independent of God, then morality would retain its authority even if God did not exist. This conclusion was explicitly (and notoriously) drawn by early modern political theorist Hugo Grotius: "What we have been saying [about the natural law] would have a degree of validity even if we should concede that which cannot be conceded without the utmost wickedness, that there is no God, or that the affairs of men are of no concern to him"[20] On such a view, God is no longer a "law-giver" but at most a "law-transmitter" who plays no vital role in the foundations of morality.[21] Nontheists have capitalized on this point, largely as a way of disarming moral arguments for God's existence: if morality does not depend on God in the first place, such arguments stumble at the starting gate.'


Also,

'The second horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is right is right because it is commanded by God) is sometimes known as divine command theory or voluntarism. Roughly, it is the view that there are no moral standards other than God's will: without God's commands, nothing would be right or wrong.'


'No reasons for morality: If there is no moral standard other than God's will, then God's commands are arbitrary (i.e., based on pure whimsy or caprice). This would mean that morality is ultimately not based on reasons: "if theological voluntarism is true, then God's commands/intentions must be arbitrary; [but] it cannot be that morality could wholly depend on something arbitrary... [for] when we say that some moral state of affairs obtains, we take it that there is a reason for that moral state of affairs obtaining rather than another."[36] And as Michael J. Murray and Michael Rea put it, this would also "cas[t] doubt on the notion that morality is genuinely objective."[37]
No reasons for God: This arbitrariness would also jeopardize God's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons only. As Leibniz writes: "Where will be his justice and his wisdom if he has only a certain despotic power, if arbitrary will takes the place of reasonableness, and if in accord with the definition of tyrants, justice consists in that which is pleasing to the most powerful? Besides it seems that every act of willing supposes some reason for the willing and this reason, of course, must precede the act."[38]
Anything goes[39]: This arbitrariness would also mean that anything could become good, and anything could become bad, merely upon God's command. Thus if God commanded us "to gratuitously inflict pain on each other"[40] or to engage in "cruelty for its own sake"[41] or to hold an "annual sacrifice of randomly selected ten-year-olds in a particularly gruesome ritual that involves excruciating and prolonged suffering for its victims"[42], then we would be morally obligated to do so. As 17th-century philosopher Ralph Cudworth put it: "nothing can be imagined so grossly wicked, or so foully unjust or dishonest, but if it were supposed to be commanded by this omnipotent Deity, must needs upon that hypothesis forthwith become holy, just, and righteous."[43]
Moral contingency: If morality depends on the perfectly free will of God, morality would lose its necessity: "If nothing prevents God from loving things that are different from what God actually loves, then goodness can change from world to world or time to time. This is obviously objectionable to those who believe that claims about morality are, if true, necessarily true."[44] In other words, no action has its moral status necessarily: any right action could have easily been wrong, if God had so decided, and an action which is right today could easily become wrong tomorrow, if God so decides. Indeed, some have argued that divine command theory is incompatible with ordinary conceptions of moral supervenience.[45]
Why do God's commands obligate?: Mere commands do not create obligations unless the commander has some commanding authority. But this commanding authority cannot itself be based on those very commands (i.e., a command to obey one's own commands), otherwise a vicious circle results. So, in order for God's commands to obligate us, he must derive commanding authority from some source other than his own will. As Cudworth put it: "For it was never heard of, that any one founded all his authority of commanding others, and others (sic) obligation or duty to obey his commands, in a law of his own making, that men should be required, obliged, or bound to obey him. Wherefore since the thing willed in all laws is not that men should be bound or obliged to obey; this thing cannot be the product of the meer (sic) will of the commander, but it must proceed from something else; namely, the right or authority of the commander"[46]. To avoid the circle, one might say our obligation comes from gratitude to God for creating us. But this presupposes some sort of independent moral standard obligating us to be grateful to our benefactors. As 18th-century philosopher Francis Hutcheson writes: "Is the Reason exciting to concur with the Deity this, 'The Deity is our Benefactor?' Then what Reason excites to concur with Benefactors?"[47] Or finally, one might resort to Hobbes's view: "The right of nature whereby God reigneth over men, and punisheth those that break his laws, is to be derived, not from his creating them (as if he required obedience, as of gratitude for his benefits), but from his irresistible power."[48] In other words, might makes right.
God's goodness: If all goodness is a matter of God's will, then what shall become of God's goodness? Thus William P. Alston writes, "since the standards of moral goodness are set by divine commands, to say that God is morally good is just to say that he obeys his own commands... that God practises what he preaches, whatever that might be"[49], and Hutcheson deems such a view "an insignificant Tautology, amounting to no more than this, 'That God wills what he wills.'"[50] Alternatively, as Leibniz puts it, divine command theorists "deprive God of the designation good: for what cause could one have to praise him for what he does, if in doing something quite different he would have done equally well?"[51]. A related point is raised by C. S. Lewis: "if good is to be defined as what God commands, then the goodness of God Himself is emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us as those of the 'righteous Lord.'"[52] Or again Leibniz: "this opinion would hardly distinguish God from the devil."[53] That is, since divine command theory trivializes God's goodness, it is incapable of explaining the difference between God and an all-powerful demon.
The is-ought problem and the naturalistic fallacy: According to David Hume, it is hard to see how moral propositions featuring the relation ought could ever be deduced from ordinary is propositions, such as "the being of a God".[54] Divine command theory is thus guilty of deducing moral oughts from ordinary ises about God's commands.[55] In a similar vein, G. E. Moore argued (with his open question argument) that the notion good is indefinable, and any attempts to analyze it in naturalistic or metaphysical terms are guilty of the so-called "naturalistic fallacy".[56] This would block any theory which analyzes morality in terms of God's will: and indeed, in a later discussion of divine command theory, Moore concluded that "when we assert any action to be right or wrong, we are not merely making an assertion about the attitude of mind towards it of any being or set of beings whatever".[57]
No morality without God: If all morality is a matter of God's will, then if God does not exist, there is no morality. This is the thought captured in the slogan (often attributed to Dostoevsky) "If God does not exist, everything is permitted." Divine command theorists disagree over whether this is a problem for their view or a virtue of their view. Many would argue that morality does indeed require God's existence, and that this is in fact a problem for atheism. But divine command theorist Robert M. Adams contends that this idea ("that no actions would be ethically wrong if there were not a loving God") is one that "will seem (at least initially) implausible to many", and that his theory must "dispel [an] air of paradox."[58]'



Decide yourselves. I think it makes a pretty decent point about how God is irrelevant in morality.
 

BigBoyJames -

Banned
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
90
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
Well, put it this way:

Euthyphro dilemma:

'The first horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is right is commanded by God because it is right) goes under a variety of names: intellectualism, rationalism, realism, naturalism, and/or objectivism. Roughly, it is the view is that there are independent moral standards: some actions are right or wrong in themselves, independently of God's commands.'

Now;

'This horn of the dilemma faces several problems:
Sovereignty: If there are moral standards independent of God's will, then "[t]here is something over which God is not sovereign. God is bound by the laws of morality instead of being their establisher. Moreover, God depends for his goodness on the extent to which he conforms to an independent moral standard. Thus, God is not absolutely independent."[13] 18th-century philosopher Richard Price, who takes the first horn and thus sees morality as "necessary and immutable", sets out the objection as follows: "It may seem that this is setting up something distinct from God, which is independent of him, and equally eternal and necessary."[14]
Omnipotence: These moral standards would limit God's power: not even God could oppose them by commanding what is evil and thereby making it good. As Richard Swinburne puts the point, this horn "seems to place a restriction on God's power if he cannot make any action which he chooses obligatory... [and also] it seems to limit what God can command us to do. God, if he is to be God, cannot command us to do what, independently of his will, is wrong."[15] This point was very influential in Islamic theology: "In relation to God, objective values appeared as a limiting factor to His power to do as He wills... Ash'ari got rid of the whole embarrassing problem by denying the existence of objective values which might act as a standard for God’s action."[16] Similar concerns drove the medieval voluntarists Scotus and Ockham.[17]
Freedom of the will: Moreover, these moral standards would limit God's freedom of will: God could not command anything opposed to them, and perhaps would have no choice but to command in accordance with them.[18] As Mark Murphy puts the point, "if moral requirements existed prior to God's willing them, requirements that an impeccable God could not violate, God's liberty would be compromised."[19]
Morality without God: If there are moral standards independent of God, then morality would retain its authority even if God did not exist. This conclusion was explicitly (and notoriously) drawn by early modern political theorist Hugo Grotius: "What we have been saying [about the natural law] would have a degree of validity even if we should concede that which cannot be conceded without the utmost wickedness, that there is no God, or that the affairs of men are of no concern to him"[20] On such a view, God is no longer a "law-giver" but at most a "law-transmitter" who plays no vital role in the foundations of morality.[21] Nontheists have capitalized on this point, largely as a way of disarming moral arguments for God's existence: if morality does not depend on God in the first place, such arguments stumble at the starting gate.'


Also,

'The second horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is right is right because it is commanded by God) is sometimes known as divine command theory or voluntarism. Roughly, it is the view that there are no moral standards other than God's will: without God's commands, nothing would be right or wrong.'


'No reasons for morality: If there is no moral standard other than God's will, then God's commands are arbitrary (i.e., based on pure whimsy or caprice). This would mean that morality is ultimately not based on reasons: "if theological voluntarism is true, then God's commands/intentions must be arbitrary; [but] it cannot be that morality could wholly depend on something arbitrary... [for] when we say that some moral state of affairs obtains, we take it that there is a reason for that moral state of affairs obtaining rather than another."[36] And as Michael J. Murray and Michael Rea put it, this would also "cas[t] doubt on the notion that morality is genuinely objective."[37]
No reasons for God: This arbitrariness would also jeopardize God's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons only. As Leibniz writes: "Where will be his justice and his wisdom if he has only a certain despotic power, if arbitrary will takes the place of reasonableness, and if in accord with the definition of tyrants, justice consists in that which is pleasing to the most powerful? Besides it seems that every act of willing supposes some reason for the willing and this reason, of course, must precede the act."[38]
Anything goes[39]: This arbitrariness would also mean that anything could become good, and anything could become bad, merely upon God's command. Thus if God commanded us "to gratuitously inflict pain on each other"[40] or to engage in "cruelty for its own sake"[41] or to hold an "annual sacrifice of randomly selected ten-year-olds in a particularly gruesome ritual that involves excruciating and prolonged suffering for its victims"[42], then we would be morally obligated to do so. As 17th-century philosopher Ralph Cudworth put it: "nothing can be imagined so grossly wicked, or so foully unjust or dishonest, but if it were supposed to be commanded by this omnipotent Deity, must needs upon that hypothesis forthwith become holy, just, and righteous."[43]
Moral contingency: If morality depends on the perfectly free will of God, morality would lose its necessity: "If nothing prevents God from loving things that are different from what God actually loves, then goodness can change from world to world or time to time. This is obviously objectionable to those who believe that claims about morality are, if true, necessarily true."[44] In other words, no action has its moral status necessarily: any right action could have easily been wrong, if God had so decided, and an action which is right today could easily become wrong tomorrow, if God so decides. Indeed, some have argued that divine command theory is incompatible with ordinary conceptions of moral supervenience.[45]
Why do God's commands obligate?: Mere commands do not create obligations unless the commander has some commanding authority. But this commanding authority cannot itself be based on those very commands (i.e., a command to obey one's own commands), otherwise a vicious circle results. So, in order for God's commands to obligate us, he must derive commanding authority from some source other than his own will. As Cudworth put it: "For it was never heard of, that any one founded all his authority of commanding others, and others (sic) obligation or duty to obey his commands, in a law of his own making, that men should be required, obliged, or bound to obey him. Wherefore since the thing willed in all laws is not that men should be bound or obliged to obey; this thing cannot be the product of the meer (sic) will of the commander, but it must proceed from something else; namely, the right or authority of the commander"[46]. To avoid the circle, one might say our obligation comes from gratitude to God for creating us. But this presupposes some sort of independent moral standard obligating us to be grateful to our benefactors. As 18th-century philosopher Francis Hutcheson writes: "Is the Reason exciting to concur with the Deity this, 'The Deity is our Benefactor?' Then what Reason excites to concur with Benefactors?"[47] Or finally, one might resort to Hobbes's view: "The right of nature whereby God reigneth over men, and punisheth those that break his laws, is to be derived, not from his creating them (as if he required obedience, as of gratitude for his benefits), but from his irresistible power."[48] In other words, might makes right.
God's goodness: If all goodness is a matter of God's will, then what shall become of God's goodness? Thus William P. Alston writes, "since the standards of moral goodness are set by divine commands, to say that God is morally good is just to say that he obeys his own commands... that God practises what he preaches, whatever that might be"[49], and Hutcheson deems such a view "an insignificant Tautology, amounting to no more than this, 'That God wills what he wills.'"[50] Alternatively, as Leibniz puts it, divine command theorists "deprive God of the designation good: for what cause could one have to praise him for what he does, if in doing something quite different he would have done equally well?"[51]. A related point is raised by C. S. Lewis: "if good is to be defined as what God commands, then the goodness of God Himself is emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us as those of the 'righteous Lord.'"[52] Or again Leibniz: "this opinion would hardly distinguish God from the devil."[53] That is, since divine command theory trivializes God's goodness, it is incapable of explaining the difference between God and an all-powerful demon.
The is-ought problem and the naturalistic fallacy: According to David Hume, it is hard to see how moral propositions featuring the relation ought could ever be deduced from ordinary is propositions, such as "the being of a God".[54] Divine command theory is thus guilty of deducing moral oughts from ordinary ises about God's commands.[55] In a similar vein, G. E. Moore argued (with his open question argument) that the notion good is indefinable, and any attempts to analyze it in naturalistic or metaphysical terms are guilty of the so-called "naturalistic fallacy".[56] This would block any theory which analyzes morality in terms of God's will: and indeed, in a later discussion of divine command theory, Moore concluded that "when we assert any action to be right or wrong, we are not merely making an assertion about the attitude of mind towards it of any being or set of beings whatever".[57]
No morality without God: If all morality is a matter of God's will, then if God does not exist, there is no morality. This is the thought captured in the slogan (often attributed to Dostoevsky) "If God does not exist, everything is permitted." Divine command theorists disagree over whether this is a problem for their view or a virtue of their view. Many would argue that morality does indeed require God's existence, and that this is in fact a problem for atheism. But divine command theorist Robert M. Adams contends that this idea ("that no actions would be ethically wrong if there were not a loving God") is one that "will seem (at least initially) implausible to many", and that his theory must "dispel [an] air of paradox."[58]'



Decide yourselves. I think it makes a pretty decent point about how God is irrelevant in morality.
stfu
 

Graney

Horse liberty
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
4,434
Location
Bereie
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
But this is different to the human sense of morality, to "I will not kill this person because I love this person and want to care for this precious life." It may mean in this case sacrificing and minimizing your own possibilities of survival which I do not believe is part of evolution.

Perhaps the pivotal example in evident in Jesus Christ, who died for the sins of other. Many may the existence of this person, but I am sure there are numerous of historical evidence supporting his life.

Even if you dismiss this evidence there are other examples. Humans with morality that do great things, suffer injury, harm and even death for what is a morally right cause. Certainly that cannot be achieved by evolution, but rather by another pathway.
Humans have a propensity to self-sacrifice for the community, this is true.

However I question your assumption this is demonstration of a divine morality. How often in history have individuals also sacrificed themselves for great evil? cf. Islamic suicide bombers, or simply any man, ever who has raised arms and given his life willingly in a war of aggression.

Sacrifice for a 'greater good' isn't unique to humans. You can train a dog to attack a bear, even though it will likely lose it's life. The dog's fear of failing to conform to social expectations overwhelms it's fear of death. A dog will suffer any hardship if it has been conditioned to believe that undertaking said action will enhance it's status among it's peers. Failing to conform to social expectations evidently harms the chances of a dog's genes being perpetuated to a greater extent than obeying the instinct to self-preservation.

Humans and dogs aren't born with an instinct to self-sacrifice, but it has been advantageous to their evolution to perpetuate a strong instinct to conform to social expectations and to respond strongly to social conditioning.

Talking about a 'willingness to sacrifice' is missing the bigger picture. I'd say it's not really a drive to sacrifice that has been developed by evolution, but rather, acting for cooperation rather than competition among humans is typically the most efficient behaviour that allows greatest reproductive success for all parties, and implicit in cooperation among species capable of learning must be a drive to social conformation, and a susceptibility to conditioning as a result.

For humans, the loss of status is commonly a greater fear than death. With the right conditioning on what is 'moral', a man can be persuaded to do anything, even give his own life for the most absurd or despicable cause, or in the rare example, a decent cause.

Humans don't have a 'sense of morality', they have a susceptibility to conditioning that has the potential to exceed their instinct for self-preservation if manipulated by the right stimulus.
 

ekoolish

Impossible?
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
885
Location
Western Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
The argument crumbles on the bases of your assumption to general morality, using the examples of murder


Your argument states that morality does not stem from religion, assuming it is natural and occurs via evolution. (The two pathways of the existence of humanity). Unless there is empirical proof, scientific, that showcases existence of morality via evolution then all this is nothing but speculation.

What I mean by this is the whole definition of morality, that is understood by humanity. This includes those basic moral principles, but also include self sacrifice, monogamy and other principles that much part of society considers "moral".
lol oh lawwd double-u-tee-eff
 

SylviaB

Just Bee Yourself 🐝
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
6,894
Location
Lidcombe
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
guys stop fooling yourselves morality doesn't exist
 

slugboy

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
153
Location
In your mums house. Ill be waiting for you.
Gender
Male
HSC
2011
Well, put it this way:

Euthyphro dilemma:

'The first horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is right is commanded by God because it is right) goes under a variety of names: intellectualism, rationalism, realism, naturalism, and/or objectivism. Roughly, it is the view is that there are independent moral standards: some actions are right or wrong in themselves, independently of God's commands.'

Now;

'This horn of the dilemma faces several problems:
Sovereignty: If there are moral standards independent of God's will, then "[t]here is something over which God is not sovereign. God is bound by the laws of morality instead of being their establisher. Moreover, God depends for his goodness on the extent to which he conforms to an independent moral standard. Thus, God is not absolutely independent."[13] 18th-century philosopher Richard Price, who takes the first horn and thus sees morality as "necessary and immutable", sets out the objection as follows: "It may seem that this is setting up something distinct from God, which is independent of him, and equally eternal and necessary."[14]
Omnipotence: These moral standards would limit God's power: not even God could oppose them by commanding what is evil and thereby making it good. As Richard Swinburne puts the point, this horn "seems to place a restriction on God's power if he cannot make any action which he chooses obligatory... [and also] it seems to limit what God can command us to do. God, if he is to be God, cannot command us to do what, independently of his will, is wrong."[15] This point was very influential in Islamic theology: "In relation to God, objective values appeared as a limiting factor to His power to do as He wills... Ash'ari got rid of the whole embarrassing problem by denying the existence of objective values which might act as a standard for God’s action."[16] Similar concerns drove the medieval voluntarists Scotus and Ockham.[17]
Freedom of the will: Moreover, these moral standards would limit God's freedom of will: God could not command anything opposed to them, and perhaps would have no choice but to command in accordance with them.[18] As Mark Murphy puts the point, "if moral requirements existed prior to God's willing them, requirements that an impeccable God could not violate, God's liberty would be compromised."[19]
Morality without God: If there are moral standards independent of God, then morality would retain its authority even if God did not exist. This conclusion was explicitly (and notoriously) drawn by early modern political theorist Hugo Grotius: "What we have been saying [about the natural law] would have a degree of validity even if we should concede that which cannot be conceded without the utmost wickedness, that there is no God, or that the affairs of men are of no concern to him"[20] On such a view, God is no longer a "law-giver" but at most a "law-transmitter" who plays no vital role in the foundations of morality.[21] Nontheists have capitalized on this point, largely as a way of disarming moral arguments for God's existence: if morality does not depend on God in the first place, such arguments stumble at the starting gate.'


Also,

'The second horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is right is right because it is commanded by God) is sometimes known as divine command theory or voluntarism. Roughly, it is the view that there are no moral standards other than God's will: without God's commands, nothing would be right or wrong.'


'No reasons for morality: If there is no moral standard other than God's will, then God's commands are arbitrary (i.e., based on pure whimsy or caprice). This would mean that morality is ultimately not based on reasons: "if theological voluntarism is true, then God's commands/intentions must be arbitrary; [but] it cannot be that morality could wholly depend on something arbitrary... [for] when we say that some moral state of affairs obtains, we take it that there is a reason for that moral state of affairs obtaining rather than another."[36] And as Michael J. Murray and Michael Rea put it, this would also "cas[t] doubt on the notion that morality is genuinely objective."[37]
No reasons for God: This arbitrariness would also jeopardize God's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons only. As Leibniz writes: "Where will be his justice and his wisdom if he has only a certain despotic power, if arbitrary will takes the place of reasonableness, and if in accord with the definition of tyrants, justice consists in that which is pleasing to the most powerful? Besides it seems that every act of willing supposes some reason for the willing and this reason, of course, must precede the act."[38]
Anything goes[39]: This arbitrariness would also mean that anything could become good, and anything could become bad, merely upon God's command. Thus if God commanded us "to gratuitously inflict pain on each other"[40] or to engage in "cruelty for its own sake"[41] or to hold an "annual sacrifice of randomly selected ten-year-olds in a particularly gruesome ritual that involves excruciating and prolonged suffering for its victims"[42], then we would be morally obligated to do so. As 17th-century philosopher Ralph Cudworth put it: "nothing can be imagined so grossly wicked, or so foully unjust or dishonest, but if it were supposed to be commanded by this omnipotent Deity, must needs upon that hypothesis forthwith become holy, just, and righteous."[43]
Moral contingency: If morality depends on the perfectly free will of God, morality would lose its necessity: "If nothing prevents God from loving things that are different from what God actually loves, then goodness can change from world to world or time to time. This is obviously objectionable to those who believe that claims about morality are, if true, necessarily true."[44] In other words, no action has its moral status necessarily: any right action could have easily been wrong, if God had so decided, and an action which is right today could easily become wrong tomorrow, if God so decides. Indeed, some have argued that divine command theory is incompatible with ordinary conceptions of moral supervenience.[45]
Why do God's commands obligate?: Mere commands do not create obligations unless the commander has some commanding authority. But this commanding authority cannot itself be based on those very commands (i.e., a command to obey one's own commands), otherwise a vicious circle results. So, in order for God's commands to obligate us, he must derive commanding authority from some source other than his own will. As Cudworth put it: "For it was never heard of, that any one founded all his authority of commanding others, and others (sic) obligation or duty to obey his commands, in a law of his own making, that men should be required, obliged, or bound to obey him. Wherefore since the thing willed in all laws is not that men should be bound or obliged to obey; this thing cannot be the product of the meer (sic) will of the commander, but it must proceed from something else; namely, the right or authority of the commander"[46]. To avoid the circle, one might say our obligation comes from gratitude to God for creating us. But this presupposes some sort of independent moral standard obligating us to be grateful to our benefactors. As 18th-century philosopher Francis Hutcheson writes: "Is the Reason exciting to concur with the Deity this, 'The Deity is our Benefactor?' Then what Reason excites to concur with Benefactors?"[47] Or finally, one might resort to Hobbes's view: "The right of nature whereby God reigneth over men, and punisheth those that break his laws, is to be derived, not from his creating them (as if he required obedience, as of gratitude for his benefits), but from his irresistible power."[48] In other words, might makes right.
God's goodness: If all goodness is a matter of God's will, then what shall become of God's goodness? Thus William P. Alston writes, "since the standards of moral goodness are set by divine commands, to say that God is morally good is just to say that he obeys his own commands... that God practises what he preaches, whatever that might be"[49], and Hutcheson deems such a view "an insignificant Tautology, amounting to no more than this, 'That God wills what he wills.'"[50] Alternatively, as Leibniz puts it, divine command theorists "deprive God of the designation good: for what cause could one have to praise him for what he does, if in doing something quite different he would have done equally well?"[51]. A related point is raised by C. S. Lewis: "if good is to be defined as what God commands, then the goodness of God Himself is emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us as those of the 'righteous Lord.'"[52] Or again Leibniz: "this opinion would hardly distinguish God from the devil."[53] That is, since divine command theory trivializes God's goodness, it is incapable of explaining the difference between God and an all-powerful demon.
The is-ought problem and the naturalistic fallacy: According to David Hume, it is hard to see how moral propositions featuring the relation ought could ever be deduced from ordinary is propositions, such as "the being of a God".[54] Divine command theory is thus guilty of deducing moral oughts from ordinary ises about God's commands.[55] In a similar vein, G. E. Moore argued (with his open question argument) that the notion good is indefinable, and any attempts to analyze it in naturalistic or metaphysical terms are guilty of the so-called "naturalistic fallacy".[56] This would block any theory which analyzes morality in terms of God's will: and indeed, in a later discussion of divine command theory, Moore concluded that "when we assert any action to be right or wrong, we are not merely making an assertion about the attitude of mind towards it of any being or set of beings whatever".[57]
No morality without God: If all morality is a matter of God's will, then if God does not exist, there is no morality. This is the thought captured in the slogan (often attributed to Dostoevsky) "If God does not exist, everything is permitted." Divine command theorists disagree over whether this is a problem for their view or a virtue of their view. Many would argue that morality does indeed require God's existence, and that this is in fact a problem for atheism. But divine command theorist Robert M. Adams contends that this idea ("that no actions would be ethically wrong if there were not a loving God") is one that "will seem (at least initially) implausible to many", and that his theory must "dispel [an] air of paradox."[58]'



Decide yourselves. I think it makes a pretty decent point about how God is irrelevant in morality.
tl;dr
 

mirakon

nigga
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
4,221
Gender
Male
HSC
2011
@Scorch

Yes although religion cannot provide a full scope of morality, nor can utilitarianism. Utilitarian morality is inherently flawed. It is essentially doing what's best for the greater number. In doing so it ignores the individualistic components of society and just considers it as one unified entity. In other words, it does not consider the quality of an individual and interrelationships between individuals.

For example, consider the following moral dilemna:

You are forced to choose between completely annihilating every developing country (larger population) or you annihilate every developed country (smaller population). You have to choose one. This hypothetical situation highlights the flaw in utilitarian morality. By utilitarianism, you should annihilate the developed countries as the developing countries have a larger population, and thus represent the greater number who must survive.



Yet due to basic human nature we find ourselves reluctant in doing so. Utilitarianism is too straight-forward, practically we don't think that way.

In the above situation there is no moral good or bad, black or white, but a decision where the moral thing is based on perspective.

Morality, you see, is not so much biological evolution as such, but cultural evolution, how the cultural, social and political interrelationships between us has developed over time.

@KarlMarx

Your verbose post does not in fact show that God is irrelevant in morality, merely that people are divided over that specific argument. It proves nothing. On the contrary, it is a dilemna, something that does not prove or disprove anything but proposes a question. Perhpas, before making such lengthy posts, it is better to analyse them more effectively yourself.
 
Last edited:

ekoolish

Impossible?
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
885
Location
Western Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
@Scorch

Yes although religion cannot provide a full scope of morality, nor can utilitarianism. Utilitarian morality is inherently flawed. It is essentially doing what's best for the greater number. In doing so it ignores the individualistic components of society and just considers it as one unified entity. In other words, it does not consider the quality of an individual and interrelationships between individuals.

For example, consider the following moral dilemna:

You are forced to choose between completely annihilating every developing country (larger population) or you annihilate every developed country (smaller population). You have to choose one. This hypothetical situation highlights the flaw in utilitarian morality. By utilitarianism, you should annihilate the developed countries as the developing countries have a larger population, and thus represent the greater number who must survive.



Yet due to basic human nature we find ourselves reluctant in doing so. Utilitarianism is too straight-forward, practically we don't think that way.

In the above situation there is no moral good or bad, black or white, but a decision where the moral thing is based on perspective.

Morality, you see, is not so much biological evolution as such, but cultural evolution, how the cultural, social and political interrelationships between us has developed over time.

@KarlMarx

Your verbose post does not in fact show that God is irrelevant in morality, merely that people are divided over that specific argument. It proves nothing. On the contrary, it is a dilemna, something that does not prove or disprove anything but proposes a question. Perhpas, before making such lengthy posts, it is better to analyse them more effectively yourself.
Hi, i'm from the grammar police.
 

mirakon

nigga
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
4,221
Gender
Male
HSC
2011
yeah i always sucked with grammar. arrest me.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top