Remembering the Veterans - Australian soldiers only? (3 Viewers)

[spell check]

My point is that as neo-liberalism advances nationalism is withering and dieing.

can you provide any evidence that nationalism is withering? it certainly isn't in australia, otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument

I think government is reflective of the people, you think the people are reflective of theor government.

You espouse basic vanguard commie thinking.

what does believing that the government has the power to manipulate public opinion and frequently does so have to do with communism?

Heard of WWII? Besides which does not ever making a claim against your insurer invalidate having insurance in the first place?

ww2 wouldn't have happened if the nazi's hadn't been able to manipulate german nationalism to a point of insanity.

It's not persuassive because you have no spine.

so people with spine are the ones who just believe everything the government tells them?

Not a united sense of identity or system of law. No nation, no soveriegnty, no territory, no state. I believe Australia to have been unoccupied by any state and thus terra nullius prior to colonisation. Search to find a fuller explanation of my stance.

too bad the high court of australia disagrees with you. but no, theyre wrong, you're right.

Investment improves their situation and their own companies develop see Asian Tigers.

the asian tigers weren't neoliberal though so that is irrelevant, their governments played major roles in development - hence being called developmental states.

So now you're saying they should be more neo-liberal?

for neoliberalism to work, it would require strong states to play fairly as well. see US and EU tariffs for example.

And perhaps it won't be adopted because under your theory the govt controls the people and those it doesnt control like yourself are too spinless to do anything.

nice argument, i'm spineless because i am not controlled by the government.

Also the international system is fundamentally anarchic - states can not change this fact and must operate under this paradigm.

good to see you've done first year intro to international relations courses, now if you do a bit more you'll learn how wrong this is - see constructivism/postpositivism for examples.

I win

you should've at least edited the question mark out of my sentence before posting that

Allow me to extend family and friends family have served and are serving in both rank and file positions and brass. Furthermore I study; the science of rational choice, International Relations and European history/society. I speak from a basis of knowledge you speak from a skimming of the green left weekly.

good to see you did a background check of my educational history

You are a pacifist both personally and on a larger scale, I disagree with this stance in both instances.

i did pick up on the fact that you are pro violence/war etc.

You fail to understand what neo-liberalism is and confuse it with mercantlism, I suggest you study the topic or at least extend your reading on the topic from communist pamphlets.

you fail to distinguish between your textbook chapter on neoliberalism and how it has been applied (or not, as may be) in practice.

You fail to understand the basic concept and operation of democracy and freedom of choice, if you were infact correct governments would never loose elections.

again, maybe read something other than the dictionary when you're talking about democracy. democracy and freedom of choice don't exist in practice, at least not to the extent you are relying on.

You fail to understand how international relations work, I suggest you study the topic.[/QUOTE]

maybe after i finish my degree in IR this year. oh wait.

 

[katie_tully]

Man...

I don't think descendants of other countries should walk in our ANZAC (AUSTRALIAN / NEW ZEALAND ARMY CORPS) day march. The Turkish? Meh, they were honorable enemies, as far as honorable enemies go. Neither the Turks nor the Australians wanted to be a Gallipoli.

ANZAC day is meant to be in commemoration of AUSTRALIAN soldiers than died doing their service to our country (whether you agree with war or not, blah blah). It doesn't even make sense that we should let German, Japanese etcetera descendants walk in our march. Why? What do we owe their descendants?

Nothing.

 

[loquasagacious]

can you provide any evidence that nationalism is withering? it certainly isn't in australia, otherwise we wouldn't be having this argument

Compared to the past nationalism in Europe is at a low.

Previously we have seen such virulent nationalisms as the Nazis, and commesurate respondent nationalisms in Britain. Similarly if we go back we can see strong nationalisms in the long lead up to and throughout WWI.

I contend that internally the European Union is becoming more and more neo-liberal and that this has played a large role in the decile of nationalism within Europe.

I think government is reflective of the people, you think the people are reflective of theor government.

Cheap shot because of your username.

what does believing that the government has the power to manipulate public opinion and frequently does so have to do with communism?

Being such an awesome politician/IR theorist you should be aware of vanguard theory that is the leninist proposition that the masses are basically 'manipulatable' and that it is the role of the communist party to serve as a vanguard and lead the otherwise ignorant masses.

Your position has remarkable parallels.

ww2 wouldn't have happened if the nazi's hadn't been able to manipulate german nationalism to a point of insanity.

Chicken before the egg.

so people with spine are the ones who just believe everything the government tells them?

You changed the context rather unashamedly here - I accused you of having no spine for having a stated preference for not resisting an invasion. At best you seem to think that maybe the invaders are being portrayed in a poor light by the government. Alternately this was an unabashed misrepresentation and cheap shot.

or neoliberalism to work, it would require strong states to play fairly as well. see US and EU tariffs for example.

you fail to distinguish between your textbook chapter on neoliberalism and how it has been applied (or not, as may be) in practice.

So you have switched from a neo-liberalism is an insane theory to a it doesn't work because the US is a fag position? Do you think it works in theory or not? If you do then why not work towards it rather than rejecting it as a knee-jerk reaction.

good to see you've done first year intro to international relations courses, now if you do a bit more you'll learn how wrong this is - see constructivism/postpositivism for examples.

good to see you did a background check of my educational history

maybe after i finish my degree in IR this year. oh wait.

Well seeing as you're such an IR buff, explain the overwhelming dominance of realism (and its variants) in theories of IR.

Given my assumption it is clear that your alleged education does not show itself in your posts - perhaps you should've saved on HECS and paid the $3 solidarity price for GLW and gotten the same result for much less money.

again, maybe read something other than the dictionary when you're talking about democracy. democracy and freedom of choice don't exist in practice, at least not to the extent you are relying on.

How unfortunate, thank you for lifting the wool from my eyes - now I can join the resistance.

 

[Generator]

I take it that neither of you will stop till the other admits that they are wrong, despite the more than obvious difference in opinion?

Given my assumption it is clear that your alleged education does not show itself in your posts - perhaps you should've saved on HECS and paid the $3 solidarity price for GLW and gotten the same result for much less money.

There's no need for that, especially when your own contribution is hardly what I would call noteworthy (the groundless and dare I say childish commie/left bashing, for example).

 

[loquasagacious]

I take it that neither of you will stop till the other admits that they are wrong, despite the more than obvious difference in opinion?

I daresay you are correct and I do hope that you are not presenting differing opinions as a reason to stop debating a topic - I vaguely recall you argueing the reverse.

There's no need for that, especially when your own contribution is hardly what I would call noteworthy (the groundless and dare I say childish commie/left bashing, for example).

I recognise this and in my defence I tender that he started it.

 

[Generator]

No, I'm not asking for this to end, but it would be great if the cheap insults could be left at the door.

Just for the record, I'm not saying that the cheap insults must stop, but I do think that they aren't necessary and that they are possibly turning some away from what is otherwise an interesting tangent.

 

[katie_tully]

Dear lord Generator, IS THAT MACGYVER?

 

[Comrade nathan]

Does anyone object to the Papuans who were allowed to march in the parade at Sydney?

 

[Generator]

Does anyone object to the Papuans who were allowed to march in the parade at Sydney?

I don't see why anyone would or should object given that the Australian Government was administering at least part of what is now from PNG from 1905 through to the state's independence in 1975.

Yes, katie. It's Macgyver.

 

[katie_tully]

Technically, in World War 2, Papua New Guinea was in a sense considered part of Australia. I'm pretty sure Australia had control of it, or whatever, and it wasn't until some time later than Indonesia gained control.

Either way, the Fuzzy Wuzzy Angels saved our troops on the Kokoda Track and quite frankly we owe them a lot because of that. Frankly it disgusted me that it took us so long to help the Papuans and Timorese after Indonesia gained control.

Let direct descendants of the fuzzy wuzzy's march. Many of them lost their lives helping us in our fight for freedom, we owe them that much.

 

[katie_tully]

The Japanese were our enemies. It's a disgraceful slap in the face for those Aussies who lost their lives, to let descendants of Jap 'soldiers' march in an ANZAC day parade.
Especially insulting would be for family members of soldiers brutally murdered and tortured in Japanese POW camps, if Japanese soldier descendants were permitted to march.
Thats not to say that POW camps were a walk in the park for Japanese soldiers, but then again we're not asking for Australian or American descendants to march in Japanese celebrations.

 

[wheredanton]

Man...

I don't think descendants of other countries should walk in our ANZAC (AUSTRALIAN / NEW ZEALAND ARMY CORPS) day march. The Turkish? Meh, they were honorable enemies, as far as honorable enemies go. Neither the Turks nor the Australians wanted to be a Gallipoli.

ANZAC day is meant to be in commemoration of AUSTRALIAN soldiers than died doing their service to our country (whether you agree with war or not, blah blah). It doesn't even make sense that we should let German, Japanese etcetera descendants walk in our march. Why? What do we owe their descendants?

Nothing.

Do you get pissed off when they allow the Turks to lay reaths on ANZAC day at 'ANZAC' cove.

 

[katie_tully]

Not at all.
The Turkish, as far as enemies go, were probably the most honorable of any the Australian's faught.
Anzac Cove is in Turkey. Turkish soldiers died, just as Australian soldiers did. The sad thing about Gallipoli is that it was a complete balls up which could have been avoided (if the British knew how to navigate), and that countless Turkish and Australians lost their lives over it.

I never said I had a problem with the Turkish marching in our Anzac day march. They displayed mateship and respect towards the Australian soldiers, in a time of great duress. They could have easily been criminal in the way they conducted the battle, and yet they didn't.

There are other no recounts of opposing sides playing cricket and being pals during an armistice.

 

[Iron]

There are other no recounts of opposing sides playing cricket and being pals during an armistice.

Except, of couse, in the main bit: the Western Front!

 

[loquasagacious]

Indeed they even had christmas dinners together on the western front.

Also terrible spellor if you're up to serious discourse then I refer you to my new thread.

 

[katie_tully]

Except, of couse, in the main bit: the Western Front!

Really? I never knew. Who did we cohort with?

I know that in France, many schools sing the Australian anthem and raise the Australian flag as respect to the soldiers that defended France...

 

[Iron]

Really? I never knew. Who did we cohort with?

I know that in France, many schools sing the Australian anthem and raise the Australian flag as respect to the soldiers that defended France...

Oh, I know not of an Australian case. Just anglo-german Christmas fraternizing.
But there was at least mutural respect in, say, Africa during the next war - Rats of Tobruk, Rommel's little tid bit (Fuhrer: "Why are you being hampered by a colonial force?" R: "MEIN FUHRER! These arent colonials, they're Australians" [or some such]) and all the rest of it.

It may be a stretch to say that the Japs formed a certain respect in, say, the work camps (Weary's conduct etc) but it obviously wasnt reciprical.
The close, prolongued combat and shared problems of ww1 was unique. Fraternizing made sense when it wasnt personal (english and germans in smelly France/evil Belguim). However I agree that the Turks were extra special, considering we were, like, invading them.
Indeed, our invasion led to the consequent reforming government which is now set to enter the E.U. But my gut instinct is to consider anything Turkish as... 'iffy'.

 

[katie_tully]

War movies that came out right after the wars were quite good. They captured the essence of the wars...
Now they're just about how many limbs they can blow off bodies in the one frame.

Anybody seen Kokoda yet? I want to...but you know...Parkes is about 5 months behind the rest of the country :\

 

[Iron]

War movies that came out right after the wars were quite good. They captured the essence of the wars...
Now they're just about how many limbs they can blow off bodies in the one frame.

See, I view the first war as better fitting the latter description. That's why I think it suss to impart traditional notions of honour and glory upon a battle where, essentially, some bugger is sitting on a hill mowing down our chaps with his new, fantastic automatic killing machine.

 

[loquasagacious]

Anybody seen Kokoda yet? I want to...but you know...Parkes is about 5 months behind the rest of the country :\

Would a subsidy make it all better?

Oh and Iron, are you sure its not just your tender stomach finding turkish food iffy? For my part I swear by it, awesome stuff.